My idea for Southeastern seat reservations from St Pancras.

[paul1609]

Yes; and if trains from Euston and Paddington terminated at Coventry and Chippenham respectively, and stopped 6/7 times on the way, you'd have a point.

Im not making a point, Im just stating a fact. Inter City services were selected at sectorisation on the grounds of profitability rather than distance so that BR could make a better case for expenditure on the East &West Coast Main Lines with the statement that "Inter City was profitable" it was, but only if you cherry picked the routes that were "Inter City". Thats why an 18 mile long airport link was "Inter City" but routes to Weymouth, Hereford, Kings Lynn and others weren't.

 

[xotGD]

This doesn't seem to be a big issue, for example CrossCountry from Birmingham to Leicester only offer reservations on their services that continue through to Cambridge/Stansted Airport, the ones that start/finish at Leicester are un-reservable. Similarly from Birmingham to Derby/Nottingham all of the Voyager/HST services offer reservations but on the Turbostar operated services to Nottingham it is primarily the ones that have come through from Cardiff that are reservable (although a minority of the Birmingham starters also offer reservations).

The last 3 or 4 times I've travelled on a Birmingham - Stansted service the seat reservations have not been displayed despite passengers being given seat reservations. Have they given up?

 

[Stampy]

Definitely NO seat reservations on SouthEastern services - as I did St Pancras to Gillingham on ONE train yesterday (via Ashford Itnl, Folkestone, Dover, Ramsgate & Margate)

All for the small amount of £8.50!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last 3 or 4 times I've travelled on a Birmingham - Stansted service the seat reservations have not been displayed despite passengers being given seat reservations. Have they given up?

There's one thing worse than no reservations, it's unreliable reservations. They are better not doing them than doing them badly.

 

[GatwickDepress]

There's very little point having reservations on High Speed 1. It's a very frequent service, it's very rarely overcrowded, and I honestly think it would confuse people who might expect reservations on "classic" services.

I have the seen the reservation displays on, but I'm fairly certain they only displayed an icon.

 

[AM9]

There's one thing worse than no reservations, it's unreliable reservations. They are better not doing them than doing them badly.

The real issue on whether reservations are necessary is similar to the issue of how much standing is reasonable, - that is travel time. I've been on HS1 domestic trains a few times, mainly off peak, and even the London to Ebbsfleet section is rarely full.
Does anybody here regularly travel beyond Ashford and say - Chatham. In the peak, just how many passengers are regularly standing beyond there because all seats are occupied?

 

[Mathew S]

No other commuter trains do this, and the javelins are not long distance unless you do a full loop back to STP.

Actually lots of other commuter trains do this. TPE services in this part if the world (North-West England) for a start.

 

[Ianno87]

The last 3 or 4 times I've travelled on a Birmingham - Stansted service the seat reservations have not been displayed despite passengers being given seat reservations. Have they given up?

The services work on quite short turnrounds (c. 10 minutes) at New St (arrival from Leicester goes back to Stansted and vice-versa) so placement of reservations depends on the TM being able to get through the train on its inward run to place to return reservations.

Yes, because the majority of the seats have already been taken by people who boarded at Stoke-on-Trent and Stafford. It appears that they become busy after Tamworth because that is the point at which people are generally getting on with no seats to go to.

Trains don't load at Crewe due to the time penalty for the detour via Stoke.

Liverpool passengers (the main target market) will mainly change at Stafford to avoid the detour (and save about half an hour).

Of course, stopping at Stone, Kidsgrove and Alsager along the way restricts the service to 4 cars. Eventually operating it direct via the WCML will enable it to be 8-car and hopefully address the capacity issues (although ironically making it faster and more attractive to North West passengers)

 

[ainsworth74]

The SE High speed services stop frequently, and don't travel far. For example, the Ramsgate via Chatham services stop, on average, every seven minutes before joining HS1. They are very much commuter services.

I'm struggling to think what else you'd call them to be honest! Possibly inter-regional? But that hardly seems to fit. Commuter is surely the only logical choice.

 

[BluePenguin]

Definitely NO seat reservations on SouthEastern services - as I did St Pancras to Gillingham on ONE train yesterday (via Ashford Itnl, Folkestone, Dover, Ramsgate & Margate)

All for the small amount of £8.50!!!

Haha did you really go all the way round the loop just to go to Gillingham?

 

[306024]

No need for seat reservations on Southeastern high speed at all, the number of no-shows you get on a commuter railway would outweigh the benefit to a few. The Norwich line is a case in point, a glorified commuter route with InterCity stock, but you can guarantee some don't turn up for their reservation Monday to Friday. Weekends are different, when a casual traveller is more likely to travel.

 

[BluePenguin]

The real issue on whether reservations are necessary is similar to the issue of how much standing is reasonable, - that is travel time. I've been on HS1 domestic trains a few times, mainly off peak, and even the London to Ebbsfleet section is rarely full.
Does anybody here regularly travel beyond Ashford and say - Chatham. In the peak, just how many passengers are regularly standing beyond there because all seats are occupied?

I regularly travel on the high-speed trains in peak time and can tell you that most of the time they they are absolutely packed until Dover Priory. Hoards of people squashing onto crowded trains at St Pancras leaving standing room only for people who join at Stratford. A few people get off at Ebbsfleet (if the service stops there) but would say most people get off the train at Ashford and Folkestone. After the Dover Priory the train is practically empty but for people staying on for Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal and Sandwich.

 

[BluePenguin]

Presumably most of them, as it's quicker to go that way!

It certainly is quicker thay way!

I think personally that HS services via Medway are completely pointless. I am sure they are great for commuters wanting to go to North London. However for passengers that don't and who want South London, they are forced to add extra strain onto the Northern line and Thameslink unless they change at Gravesend, Rochester for earlier for Victoria and Charing Cross services. Question: For people who do this, how would seperate reservations be managed for them?

In addition, with the trains spending such little time on HS1 it makes me wonder why people bother to pay the premium Southeastern demand for using the high speed trains, when they gain such little value for time and money.

I feel similarly about high speed services via Ashford although to a lesser extent as they travel for a much more substanial amount of time on HS1 in comparision (although not between Folkestone and Ashford surprisingly, but that is for another thread!). There is no question in my mind that people would not prefer to use fast mainline services (between Ashford and Tonbridge especially) to Charing Cross and Victoria if were ever brought back.

What do other people think?

 

[cactustwirly]

It's very similar to the Munich to Nuremburg express, which is a high speed RE service.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/München-Nürnberg-Express
Though I'm not sure whether reservations are offered.

In the UK the distinction between IC and RE services is a bit blurred, eg: the Cotswold line is a RE service with IC stock (mostly)

 

[DarloRich]

Mr Mountain? Meet Mr Molehill.

This seems like a total non issue being whipped up.

 

[Bromley boy]

Mr Mountain? Meet Mr Molehill.

This seems like a total non issue being whipped up.

If this entire thread could be distilled into one post, you’ve nailed it.

 

[BluePenguin]

At the risk if repeating what has been stated ad infinitum above, reservations would be a complete waste of effort in my view. A solution to a problem that simply doesn’t exist given the short durarion of most journeys on HS1.

Classic services would continue to run on longer journeys than Javelins without reservations being available which would make little sense.

How would reservations work on the high speed “rounders”? They would have to be reset at the half way point in the train’s journey.

Fair enough, I guess everyone has their opinion which they like to share on forums. However, although I respect your point it is worth noting that although the trains spend a relatively short amount of time on HS1, the majority of journeys made by passengers are to destinations past Ashford and Ebbsfleet and will have tickets to reflect. Because of this, reservations would most likely be from stations further away and not necessarily Ebbsfleet or Ashford only. Nobody would bother with a reservation anyway for a 38 minute or 17 minute journey I agree with you there.

Of course on high speed rounder's the reservations would work like any other. For example a seat reservation for the 10:28 Dover Priory to St Pancras only be valid on the exact train from Dover towards St Pancras leaving at 10:28. The reservation wouldn't valid if the passenger were to catch a train in the opposite direction.

As for the display on board, I assume the reservations would change dynamically exactly the same as the fake destinations do (e.g Sandwich via Dover, Faversham via Ramsgate...)

Classic services having reservations does make little sense, the demand is just not there since all services became stopping service.

 

[Alfie1014]

I regularly travel on the high-speed trains in peak time and can tell you that most of the time they they are absolutely packed until Dover Priory. Hoards of people squashing onto crowded trains at St Pancras leaving standing room only for people who join at Stratford. A few people get off at Ebbsfleet (if the service stops there) but would say most people get off the train at Ashford and Folkestone. After the Dover Priory the train is practically empty but for people staying on for Martin Mill, Walmer, Deal and Sandwich.

I been travelling on the route (mostly off peak) every few months for the last five years or so and services have got much busier over that period. It's now quite difficult if not impossible to get a seat at Stratford on down afternoon services on Fridays (and sometimes other times) on Ashford services, which nearly always are 6 cars. The North Kent services don't seem to have experienced the same growth (perhaps not surprisingly). With the next franchise not due to start until Dec 2018 and any new dedicated trains for the route having little chance of being introduced before 2021/22 the crowding is only likely to get worse in my opinion.

 

[hooverboy]

I'm struggling to think what else you'd call them to be honest! Possibly inter-regional? But that hardly seems to fit. Commuter is surely the only logical choice.

regional express fits the bill.
in german terms it's a semi-fast service with stops at important hubs every 15-20 miles.lots to be said for this type of service.works a lot better than stoppers and proper ICE long distance.

 

[chris7153]

As a regular commuter, peak time overcrowding of HS1 services is a servre issue. The fleet of only 29 395's is insufficent and vast majority of services are only formed of a single 6 car train. There has been an increase in passengers in last couple of years, using these services probably to avoid the disruption at London Bridge. Most peak services are standing room only from Ashford or Medway towns to St Pancras. Seat reservations are in my opinion would be rather pointless on these trains. There is no difference to the likes of Southern who don't do seat reservations from London to Brighton for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually lots of other commuter trains do this. TPE services in this part if the world (North-West England) for a start.

TPE are more of a regional express service that happens to be used by commuters than primarily a commuter service. If they were primarily a commuter service the new stock would be 3+2 seated with doors at thirds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's very similar to the Munich to Nuremburg express, which is a high speed RE service.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/München-Nürnberg-Express
Though I'm not sure whether reservations are offered.

In the UK the distinction between IC and RE services is a bit blurred, eg: the Cotswold line is a RE service with IC stock (mostly)

I don't know if this line is involved but DB are piloting reservations on regional services, at present available from the TVM only at a lower price (EUR1) than IC/ICE. They are unmarked, with reserved areas/coaches and unreserved ones.

It's that concept I think the UK should consider - it'd make serious inroads into the Euston scrum and such like if on arrival at the station you could grab a reservation from the TVM. Basically a better concept than XC TMR but similar.

 

[Stampy]

Haha did you really go all the way round the loop just to go to Gillingham?

Yeah, went down to London with my parents, and my brother and niece..

They went off to Hampton Court and Tower of London, whilst I went to Gillingham v Northampton Town.

Spotted the £8.50 fare and booked a return to Gillingham (£17 total) and decided to waste 2 3/4 hours doing the Kent "loop" on the train*...


*Highlight being - as we pulled into Folkestone Central the heavens opened, and the guard announced.... "Welcome to 'Sunny Kent' please have your personal belongings and Umbrellas ready..."

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm struggling to think what else you'd call them to be honest! Possibly inter-regional? But that hardly seems to fit. Commuter is surely the only logical choice.

Inter regional from London and the South East to London and the South East - sometimes via London and the South East?

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the DB model (as most on here like) they'd be RegionalExpress. By and large, London commuter services would be RB, RE and S depending on exactly what they were. I guess the longer distance Chiltern stuff could be IR.

 

[another smith]

It certainly is quicker thay way!

I think personally that HS services via Medway are completely pointless. I am sure they are great for commuters wanting to go to North London. However for passengers that don't and who want South London, they are forced to add extra strain onto the Northern line and Thameslink unless they change at Gravesend, Rochester for earlier for Victoria and Charing Cross services. Question: For people who do this, how would seperate reservations be managed for them?

In addition, with the trains spending such little time on HS1 it makes me wonder why people bother to pay the premium Southeastern demand for using the high speed trains, when they gain such little value for time and money.

I feel similarly about high speed services via Ashford although to a lesser extent as they travel for a much more substanial amount of time on HS1 in comparision (although not between Folkestone and Ashford surprisingly, but that is for another thread!). There is no question in my mind that people would not prefer to use fast mainline services (between Ashford and Tonbridge especially) to Charing Cross and Victoria if were ever brought back.

What do other people think?

As someone who commutes via Medway I 100% agree with this. Also, I'm sure that a journey on the "classic" route to Victoria/Cannon Street, pre HS services via Medway took about the same amount of time.

 

[Clip]

If theres one thing the javelins dont need is reservations. Even the first one off ramsgate in the morning is pretty much full by sittingbourne.

They could do with more units though or stop serving places like maidstone and keep them to the loop route.

 

[talldave]

.....
In addition, with the trains spending such little time on HS1 it makes me wonder why people bother to pay the premium Southeastern demand for using the high speed trains, when they gain such little value for time and money.

There are some reasonable value options for avoiding the premium which are even more palatable with the addition of Gold Card discount.

If theres one thing the javelins dont need is reservations. Even the first one off ramsgate in the morning is pretty much full by sittingbourne.

They could do with more units though or stop serving places like maidstone and keep them to the loop route.

Sadly after yesterday's collision I would imagine we're going to be a unit down for a while.

 

[Clip]

Hopefully its just damage to the nosecone and can be swapped out F1 style

 

[paul1609]

It certainly is quicker thay way!

I think personally that HS services via Medway are completely pointless. I am sure they are great for commuters wanting to go to North London. However for passengers that don't and who want South London, they are forced to add extra strain onto the Northern line and Thameslink unless they change at Gravesend, Rochester for earlier for Victoria and Charing Cross services. Question: For people who do this, how would seperate reservations be managed for them?

In addition, with the trains spending such little time on HS1 it makes me wonder why people bother to pay the premium Southeastern demand for using the high speed trains, when they gain such little value for time and money.

I feel similarly about high speed services via Ashford although to a lesser extent as they travel for a much more substanial amount of time on HS1 in comparision (although not between Folkestone and Ashford surprisingly, but that is for another thread!). There is no question in my mind that people would not prefer to use fast mainline services (between Ashford and Tonbridge especially) to Charing Cross and Victoria if were ever brought back.

What do other people think?

My experience from 2 years commuting from Rye/Ashford International/ Headcorn is that HS1 services have 95%+ of traffic leaving Ashford for London in the peaks maybe around 80% off peak and vice versa. Most of the peak 12 car classic services via Tonbridge leave with 1 or 2 passengers per coach although they will be full and standing by Sevenoaks. If they were fast to Tonbridge they'd be empty passing packed platforms at Headcorn Staplehurst and Paddock Wood. The only people who think this is a good idea post HS1 are rail enthusiasts and Southeastern staff who are more interested in playing trains than meeting the needs of passengers.