My idea to abolish single operator tickets

[geoffk]

Moderator note: split from

Train cancelled, ticket office advised to board service of another operator, rejected by guard

On 5 July 2023 I was booked on Northern direct service Manchester Oxford Road (MCO) to Staveley (SVL) departing 0853 arriving 1034, with route “AP Northern only”. When I arrived at MCO I discovered the train was cancelled. I immediately visited the (Northern staffed) ticket office, showed my...

www.railforums.co.uk

One would assume that with both operators now directly managed by the government's OLR, this silliness would end.

Indeed. All the revenue is going to the Govt. anyway. A task for GBR, if and when it happens, is to ditch single-operator tickets as they are clearly more trouble than they are worth (apart from advances and special offers like Club 55, if that still exists).

 

[185]

Indeed. All the revenue is going to the Govt. anyway. A task for GBR, if and when it happens, is to ditch single-operator tickets as they are clearly more trouble than they are worth (apart from advances and special offers like Club 55, if that still exists).

This would be ideal, however it would cause fare rises - eg, example out of London to the north, you want Avanti you pay 50-60% more. Happy using the slower service, 60% less. What does need to go are Avanti & TPE revenue grabs (eg, Crewe-Liverpool Avanti only, Stafford Liverpool Avanti only etc).

 

[py_megapixel]

What does need to go are Avanti & TPE revenue grabs (eg, Crewe-Liverpool Avanti only, Stafford Liverpool Avanti only etc).

The ultimate example of this seems to be Stockport-Manchester, where Avanti, TPE and TfW all have their own single-operator fares while Northern sells on-the-day advances on almost every train (and that's before you even think about the buses every few minutes on the same route which use a completely separate system)

 

[Kite159]

What needs to happen is to do away with "TOC only" fares for flows under say 30 miles. So the likes of TfW Only fares between Wolverhampton & Birmingham [which I suspect get massively misused due to the lack of ticket checks] or between Stockport & Manchester.

And the "TOC Only" fares remaining should offer a saving of at least 30% of the "all operators/any permitted" flow, not 10p (in the case of some of the Avanti only fares)

 

[Techniquest]

Or, as in the case I had earlier this year, booking tickets in the GWR app (other TOC apps available!) to travel Crewe-Liverpool. Out via Avanti, return via LNWR. I got sold an Avanti Only ticket, which was not helpful! If one specifies a journey in an app that doesn't involve the same TOC on such a route, then the Avanti fare should not be sold! Granted, I should have checked more carefully, but it still annoys me months later!

TOC restricted fares have their uses, but I agree with Mr Kite, the saving the Avanti Only fares offer are ridiculous.

Banishing TOC-only fares is definitely *not* something I want to see!

 

[317 forever]

The occasions these make the most sense are when there is a fast service and a slow service. A frequent example is Avanti v LNWR. Then people have a financial incentive to use the slow service, keeping more seats vacant for people who need the faster service.

For short journeys these can easily confuse rare travellers or cause problems in the event of cancellations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A minimum discount of 20% or £5, whichever is higher, would weed out the silly ones.

 

[Starmill]

Prohibiting them completely would be silly. Why restrict the commercial freedom of TPE to compete with GC between Northallerton and York, for example? Or with HT between Selby and Hull, or with Lumo between Newcastle and Morpeth? It would be like handing public money over to the Open Access Operators.

 

[Meerkat]

As with many ticketing ideas it seems based on ideology, normally involving the taxpayer throwing more money in.
Surely single operator tickets are very much needed for demand management?

 

[JonathanH]

Prohibiting them completely would be silly. Why restrict the commercial freedom of TPE to compete with GC between Northallerton and York, for example? Or with HT between Selby and Hull, or with Lumo between Newcastle and Morpeth?

One really good reason to remove such tickets is to reduce confrontation between passengers and traincrew when the passengers buy the wrong tickets.

While many passengers like cheaper tickets, I suspect very few only travel because of them. Therefore operator specific tickets are simply lost revenue to the railway now, and a significant source of passenger confusion.

Given what Grant Shapps announced in September 2020, ‘Our new deal for rail demands more for passengers. It will simplify people’s journeys, ending the uncertainty and confusion about whether you are using the right ticket or the right train company’. it is some wonder that operator specific tickets haven't gone already.

 

[Bevan Price]

Allowing separate operators adds to the confusion - it is doctrinaire nonsense from people like Mr Shapps and other Tories.
We should have a single national operator with (mostly) lower fares to attract people from the only major competition - the private car. .

 

[PeterC]

Before visiting my daughter in Shipley a while ago I looked up train fares for a trip to York and found that there were Northern only fares at a very small discount. On a previous trip I just bought an off peak return from Shipley ticket office. It never occurred to me to check if there were operator specific restrictions and just jumped straight on to a Cross Country service on the adjacent platform at Leeds. There was no on-train check between Leeds and York so I have no idea if I was legal or not.

Route specific tickets where there is an obvious difference such as London to Exeter are fine but giving penalty fares because a train on the same route is the wrong colour is just mad.

Before anybody "corrects" me the Northern only option was no longer available when I last checked.

 

[zwk500]

A minimum discount of 20% or £5, whichever is higher, would weed out the silly ones.

This indeed would be a good method of stopping cynical pricing.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Before visiting my daughter in Shipley a while ago I looked up train fares for a trip to York and found that there were Northern only fares at a very small discount. On a previous trip I just bought an off peak return from Shipley ticket office. It never occurred to me to check if there were operator specific restrictions and just jumped straight on to a Cross Country service on the adjacent platform at Leeds. There was no on-train check between Leeds and York so I have no idea if I was legal or not.

Route specific tickets where there is an obvious difference such as London to Exeter are fine but giving penalty fares because a train on the same route is the wrong colour is just mad.

Before anybody "corrects" me the Northern only option was no longer available when I last checked.

Shipley to/from York still has Off Peak Returns, with either route "via Leeds", or route "Northern Only", the latter at a massive £1 cheaper. And if you had have bought the latter, if wouldn't ever normally be valid on XC.

 

[Starmill]

One really good reason to remove such tickets is to reduce confrontation between passengers and traincrew when the passengers buy the wrong tickets.

While many passengers like cheaper tickets, I suspect very few only travel because of them. Therefore operator specific tickets are simply lost revenue to the railway now, and a significant source of passenger confusion.

Given what Grant Shapps announced in September 2020, ‘Our new deal for rail demands more for passengers. It will simplify people’s journeys, ending the uncertainty and confusion about whether you are using the right ticket or the right train company’. it is some wonder that operator specific tickets haven't gone already.

Sure those are nice words but ultimately the sentiment was meaningless, as I believe you know already. It's not within the gift of the Secretary of State to throw the three successful OAOs out of business just because they think it's inconvenient so I'd like to know how that would be dealt with? Also Transport for Wales would keep using dedicated tickets if they wanted to. Finally we've discussed many, many times that some routes have competition between DfT operators where there's little overlap e.g. very few LNR ticket holders would use Avanti West Coast and vice versa as the gap in terms of price and journey times is too large. On that basis I'd argue it's not actually surprise the tickets aren't being withdrawn, though they have ceased proliferating.

To put it another way it's got nothing to do with passengers losing the cheaper tickets. It's purely that Shapps' proposed restrictions would lead to lost revenue (and be a nice payday for the three OAOs).

 

[Hadders]

relief

Allowing separate operators adds to the confusion - it is doctrinaire nonsense from people like Mr Shapps and other Tories.
We should have a single national operator with (mostly) lower fares to attract people from the only major competition - the private car. .

Let's look at an example:

London to Crewe:
Any Permitted £284.20 Anytime; £94.60 Off Peak
London Northwestern Only £132.10 Anytime; £50.20; £38.90 Super Off Peak

What would your proposed fares be? How would you ensure there was not a massive price increase for those buying the cheaper tickets (not a good tging to do in a cost of living crisis)? How would you make sure the Government didn't need to privide extra subsidy?

Also, if the fares are lowered how would you make sure that people didn't just travel on the faster Avanti trains which would become crush loaded while the slower LNR trains cart fresh air around?

While I do think it's ridiculous for short distance operator specific fares to be available that offer a paltry saving, I don't think you can get rid of operator specific tickets in the sort of example I've given above.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I am in favour of the Avanti/LNR split for the purpose of market segmentation (i.e. attracting people out of a shared low cost car on the M1), and it would probably be worth keeping "regional only" anyone who really knows these services will know this is slightly disingenuous in that there isn't a lack of capacity on Avanti nor fresh air on LNR. If you abolished these fares passengers would be better distributed and LNR could operate shorter trains, e.g. 5 car 730 would be fine for most Trents and Birminghams with 10 south of Northampton on the Brums. It is cheaper to provide added capacity on faster services as fewer units are needed to do it - hence HS2.

 

[Bevan Price]

Let's look at an example:

London to Crewe:
Any Permitted £284.20 Anytime; £94.60 Off Peak
London Northwestern Only £132.10 Anytime; £50.20; £38.90 Super Off Peak

What would your proposed fares be? How would you ensure there was not a massive price increase for those buying the cheaper tickets (not a good tging to do in a cost of living crisis)? How would you make sure the Government didn't need to privide extra subsidy?

Also, if the fares are lowered how would you make sure that people didn't just travel on the faster Avanti trains which would become crush loaded while the slower LNR trains cart fresh air around?

While I do think it's ridiculous for short distance operator specific fares to be available that offer a paltry saving, I don't think you can get rid of operator specific tickets in the sort of example I've given above.

My policy would be a bit like the old Woolwoths policy of "pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap". So stuff demand management and revert to a mileage-based fares system. So, maybe about 20 to 25p per mile for single fares, a bit of a reduction (say 10%) for return fares, and, mostly, no peak hour restrictions. Get rid of First Class if trains have insufficient Standard Class seating.

 

[Hadders]

My policy would be a bit like the old Woolwoths policy of "pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap". So stuff demand management and revert to a mileage-based fares system. So, maybe about 20 to 25p per mile for single fares, a bit of a reduction (say 10%) for return fares, and, mostly, no peak hour restrictions. Get rid of First Class if trains have insufficient Standard Class seating.

Sounds attractive. A few questions:

1. How much would a day return cost from York to Whitby avoiding Darlington? Would this fare be competitive with the bus service?
2. How much would a day return cost from York to London? If this is lower than the current price where would the revenue come from to make up the shortfall?
3. How much would it cost to travel between Peterborough and Leicester, and Leicester and Nottingham? Will it be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester?

 

[zwk500]

My policy would be a bit like the old Woolwoths policy of "pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap". So stuff demand management and revert to a mileage-based fares system. So, maybe about 20 to 25p per mile for single fares, a bit of a reduction (say 10%) for return fares, and, mostly, no peak hour restrictions. Get rid of First Class if trains have insufficient Standard Class seating.

How did this work out for Woolworths?

More seriously, say I want to make a journey such as MK or Northampton to Leeds or York - I can go one of three ways, all are within about half an hour of the same travel time: Changing at Birmingham for XC via Derby and Sheffield, changing at Manchester for TPE via Huddersfield, or into Euston and out of King's Cross. The rail mileages for these are all a large amount over the direct mileage, and there would be reasonable variation in the routes themselves. They also use all use a mix of commuter and long-distance trains and involve at least 2 operators.
How should the fare be set for this journey?