SpacePhoenix
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If Reading-Basingstoke were to go over to South Western, would there be the scope and/or demand to extended that route at either end?
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My idea to extend the Reading - Basingstoke service
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You had a fairly regular Portsmouth-Reading DEMU service prior to the Solent electrification
swt_passenger
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I don't think so, because the route studies consider through services from Paddington to Basingstoke after AC electrification, either direct or via Heathrow, and these would probably still fit better with the GW operator.
Given the capacity constraints down to Southampton or up towards London then the only other direction the services could head once they reach Basingstoke would be west towards Salisbury, but I would doubt that there was much demand for interchange between those two lines.
It would also mess up capacity through the junction at Basingstoke which also wouldn't help the case.
I agree, but there was a period in the late 60s/70s when there was a through service (for operational convenience as it sat at Basingstoke for quite some time to cross connect with the main line), and prior to that it was Reading-Southampton or Portsmouth for a few years.
There would have been fewer 'InterCity CrossCountry' services then.
And indeed fewer services generally; it would be madness to extend the stopping service these days, especially when you look at the track layout at Basingstoke.
Isn't there already a half hourly service between Reading and Basingstoke that is extended at either end? Isn't that enough?
Quite so. On reflection, the real reason for the through Salisbury workings must have been that it was inconvenient to terminate at Basingstoke from the west - it rarely happened pre 1967 and after that trains had to run to Barton Mill to clear the line and cross to the down side.
South West Trains used to run Reading to Brighton services, via Basingstoke, Eastleigh and Fareham. They were dropped when the DMUs were needed in the major timetable change to make Exeter services hourly. Not sure if there would be the capacity for them these days.
As South West Trains has discovered, Reading is a great convenient place in which to terminate trains. It will be used during the coming blockade to terminate West of England trains on weekdays that can't continue to Waterloo due to the lack of capacity there, and where there isn't enough platform capacity at Basingstoke.
As South West Trains has discovered, Reading is a great convenient place in which to terminate trains. It will be used during the coming blockade to terminate West of England trains on weekdays that can't continue to Waterloo due to the lack of capacity there, and where there isn't enough platform capacity at Basingstoke.
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swt_passenger
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There isn't capacity for them. It was never a regular service to/from Reading, they were roughly extensions of every third train that was otherwise a Basingstoke service. They also didn't run to/from Brighton all day, in the peaks the paths ran from or to Portsmouth Harbour instead, and they mostly still do. Indeed the first arrival at Reading that actually came from Brighton was at 1223.
Removing the SWT Basingstoke to Reading legs provided capacity subsequently taken up by freight or XC services.
Brighton to Fareham released capacity was used by the SN Southampton Central service - it runs every hour 7 days a week and is far more useful.
Reinstatement of the service patterns that last ran almost 10 years ago is probably never going to happen, and yet it gets mentioned every few months...
swt_passenger
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No problem, I was just trying to put some "flesh on the bones" of your obvious doubts.
To provide a better Interchange it would be better to run a more frequent service between Basingstoke and Reading. It shouldn't impact on capacity constraints at either end as it is a semi self contained line and doesn't interact with the mainlines (at least only the B&H at the Northern end).
I would be tempted to keep the same half hour frequency and run the extra service as a fast service at some other time. It could be that if it were timetabled week that it could allow some longer layovers to improve recovery tunes during disruption.
I would be tempted to keep the same half hour frequency and run the extra service as a fast service at some other time. It could be that if it were timetabled week that it could allow some longer layovers to improve recovery tunes during disruption.
coppercapped
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There is already an hourly non-stop service Reading - Basingstoke and vice versa which is extended at both ends. It's called XC...
There is also a half-hourly stopping service between these points. Is the suggestion to extend the latter? And if so, why?
Kite159
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3 trains per 2 hours non-stop service between Reading & Basingstoke as the Reading terminators are extended to Southampton every 2 hours
Bear in mind that the line is busy with various freight movements so extra paths might not be so readily available
There is a 1.5 tph service run by XC. Even then the stopping trains are well used by people traveling from end to end.
It is a two line track with at most 4 passenger trains per hour, even with an allowance for 4 freight trains per hour there could likely be scope (depending on signal spacing) due a further two trains per hour and they still to have 6 minute gaps between each train. Which would be getting fairly tight and could limit the speed of the XC services of not timetabled well, but then I don't think that there's 4 freight trains per hour.
If the extra service ran at XX:15 from Basingstoke then it would be just ahead of the 0.5tph XC service. That would mean that petite would be able to connect with the XC service at Reading when it doesn't run with of Reading. It would also mean that there was more susceptible on the XC service for those traveling longer distances as people would use the GWR service just before it.
I can't think of any reason for this other than possibly to create direct services to London for Bramley and Mortimer (and some more for Reading West).
And unless the line is to be electrified, which seems a rather long way off into the future, that idea is a non-starter.
And unless the line is to be electrified, which seems a rather long way off into the future, that idea is a non-starter.
coppercapped
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All well and good (if I have parsed the last paragraph correctly), but the Basingstoke trains share tracks with the B&H West of England line trains between Oxford Road Junction at Reading West (station) and Southcote Junction where the Basingstoke and Newbury routes divide. This stretch is shared with the stopping Newbury service and the Newbury - Bedwyn semi-fasts as well as the longer distance Taunton - Exeter - Plymouth - Penzance services. Oh! And the occasional 4,000 tonne stone trains as well which at 40 wagons long running at 40mph or so occupy junctions for some minutes. The (roughly) hourly container trains to and from Southampton are 20/22 wagons long and also take some time to clear the junctions...
All these crayonista dreams are probably useful but won't be feasible until Southcote Junction is grade separated and something similar is done at Basingstoke as well.
SpacePhoenix
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Could the GWR Basingstoke-Reading service ever be combined with the GWR Reading-Gatwick service?
HarleyDavidson
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Probably as you can avoid mainline conflicts by using the dive under at Reading, leaving Southcote junction being the only pinch point.
My suggestion of an extra service was more a thought that it would probably provide a lot of the benefits of through services from elsewhere without having to mess around trying to squeeze in extra services through Basingstoke and Reading junctions. As such it would probably be a more likely solution to a solution looking for a problem than extending services.
coppercapped
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Why would you want to? What market does it address? Basingstoke to Gatwick is best served via Clapham Junction.
I can't take your suggestion seriously. There's an untapped market from Bramley, Mortimer and Reading West to Gatwick..?
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And if you are being really perverse then try Basingstoke - Woking - Guildford - Redhill - Gatwick.
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coppercapped
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Not quite! Any southbound train from the Relief Lines at Reading has to cross the Up Westbury line at or near Oxford Road junction on the flat. Similarly an Up train from Reading West to the Up Relief has to cross the Down Relief to Didcot on the flat.
Also because of space considerations the single dive-under line east of Reading only has connections to Platforms 15 and 14, the Up Relief and Up Relief platform loop and to 13, the Down Relief platform loop. All these are bi-directionally signalled, but Platforms 13 and 14 will almost certainly be used to reverse the Crossrail trains when they start. At two per hour I suspect only one of these platforms will be needed but if TfL gets its way and the service increases to 4 per hour then at times both of these will be needed.
This then leaves the question of what to do with the reversing XC trains. At the moment they frequently use the western half of Platforms 13 and 14 and, using the 'rear clear' facility the eastern end is used at the same time for the terminating suburban services from Paddington. This is possible because neither type of train is longer than 5 coaches.
It might be more difficult than one thinks.
or 
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Actually +Space Phoenix (who everyone seems to be unfairly mean to) I really like that idea. No reversal needed at Reading, plus it's about time Basingstoke got a direct link with Guildford. I mean doing it like Basingstoke - Reading - North Camp - Guildford - Redhill - Gatwick. Plus
Oh, and coppercapped, you know how you said:
Why would you want to? What market does it address? Basingstoke to Gatwick is best served via Clapham Junction.
Well, yeah but actually no - there is a pretty big price that comes with that route! I know for a fact (Guildford being local) that you can get something called a Gatwick Flyer or something like that for £1 from I think all of the North Downs Line stations, certainly Guildford anyway, allowing a return to Gatwick. That's a lot cheaper than SWT to Clapham and Southern to Gatwick! By far! Couldn't be much longer either if longer at all!!! Plus, a lot of people want to avoid changes, especially at Clapham!
Yes Space Phoenix I like that idea
, and I once thought of that too - no lie. It's wonderful someone else thinks it would work.Z
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coppercapped
Established Member
Actually +Space Phoenix (who everyone seems to be unfairly mean to) I really like that idea. No reversal needed at Reading, plus it's about time Basingstoke got a direct link with Guildford. I mean doing it like Basingstoke - Reading - North Camp - Guildford - Redhill - Gatwick. Plus
Are you serious? It's difficult to tell sometimes and the emojis can be interpreted in many ways. Have you looked at a map? It's just over 15 miles by rail from Basingstoke to Reading and nearly 30 miles from Reading to Guildford making a total of 45 miles. It's about 29 1/2 miles from Basingstoke to Guildford via Woking so your route is half as long again as the obvious one.
Apart from everything else Basingstoke to Woking is a 100mph line and the journey takes as little as 18 or 19 minutes. The whole journey to Guildford can be done in just over half an hour including a change at Woking. Half an hour from Basingstoke and you'll have just reached the Guildford train in Reading.
Er, not quite... A simple query with National Rail gives this for the 'Gatwick Flyway' ticket:
Only the children go for £1. Check your 'facts'.
Yes Space Phoenix I like that idea
Tom
So that now makes two people who think it's a good idea.
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If there was going to be an extension of the existing services, the most likely candidate would be to Heathrow once the Western Approach opens. However that wood mean that journey times were about 15 minutes longer than they needed to be.
There could be a compromise in that 1tph calls at all stations and runs only between Basingstoke and Reading. With 2tph (Basingstoke - Heathrow) running a skip stop pattern to improve journey times but still providing every station with at least a 2tph frequency. With a rule that allows passengers with a ticket between two minor stations on the line to double back at Basingstoke or Reading West.
There could be a compromise in that 1tph calls at all stations and runs only between Basingstoke and Reading. With 2tph (Basingstoke - Heathrow) running a skip stop pattern to improve journey times but still providing every station with at least a 2tph frequency. With a rule that allows passengers with a ticket between two minor stations on the line to double back at Basingstoke or Reading West.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Why not leave it the services as they are, rather than looking for a solution for a problem which doesn't exist...
There isn't that much untapped demand which isn't already served by the 3.5 trains per hour.
There isn't that much untapped demand which isn't already served by the 3.5 trains per hour.
Well, it could be 4tph, which would be nice, and I believe was listed as an aspiration in the last RUS (ie the .5tph south coast to north east XC becomes 1tph).
coppercapped
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Exactly. There are far more important issues which demand management attention.
Let's be real - even if we do address more important issues on here, most of us probably aren't important enough within the industry to make much any managers notice and take action based on what we discuss. I, for one, am happy with being passively amused by others' crayonista tendencies (and my own at times, of course)
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