My idea to extend the Reading - Basingstoke service

[The Ham]

Why not leave it the services as they are, rather than looking for a solution for a problem which doesn't exist...

There isn't that much untapped demand which isn't already served by the 3.5 trains per hour.

Perhaps because people are mindful of how long it can take for projects to come into being (just when is Thameslink 2000 due to open again?).

As such, and bring in mind that passenger growth is over 4% which means something that is fine now may not be in five years time, it is not suppressing that people are inclined to discuss projects that might be 5, 10, 15, even 20 years off.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are you serious? A simple query with National Rail gives this for the 'Gatwick Flyway' ticket:

Only the children go for £1. Check your 'facts'.

So that now makes two people who think it's a good idea.

Um sorry... Yeah, forgot it's only child price. Im under 16 so i can do it, so i forgot it might be an under 16s thing only...

 

[coppercapped]

Um sorry... Yeah, forgot it's only child price. Im under 16 so i can do it, so i forgot it might be an under 16s thing only...

Fair enough! But even then, you can't do it by yourself, you need at least 2 adults to go with you!

Enjoy the trains...!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Fair enough! But even then, you can't do it by yourself, you need at least 2 adults to go with you!

Enjoy the trains...!

Yeah its annoying. I'd love to be able to go to Gatwick solo for a pound!

And thanks!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Isn't there already a half hourly service between Reading and Basingstoke that is extended at either end? Isn't that enough?

An extra XC - every 2 hours , - sits there now.

That gives never less than 4 - sometimes 5 an hour. Pretty decent service IMHO.

Personally getting 3 aspect signalling on the line a few years ago certainly helps - especially for freight.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

An extra XC - every 2 hours , - sits there now.

That gives never less than 4 - sometimes 5 an hour. Pretty decent service IMHO.

Personally getting 3 aspect signalling on the line a few years ago certainly helps - especially for freight.

Hmm. Let me correct that for you.

An extra XC - every 2 hours , - sits there now.

That gives never less than 3 - sometimes 4 an hour. Pretty decent service IMHO.

Personally getting 3 aspect signalling on the line a few years ago certainly helps - especially for freight.

Because 2tph GWR
Because 1tph XC
and then the extra XC every 2 hrs

Sorry to be pernickety.
Even more sorry if I'm mistaken. Pretty sure I'm not though!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Hmm. Let me correct that for you.



Because 2tph GWR
Because 1tph XC
and then the extra XC every 2 hrs

Sorry to be pernickety.
Even more sorry if I'm mistaken. Pretty sure I'm not though!

Sorry - "senior moment" .....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Don't worry. Happens to the best of us!

 

[FenMan]

Coming back to linking these services with the NDL.

Selfishly, I would be delighted if there was regular direct service between Blackwater and Basingstoke with a journey time of 45 minutes.

It's ok Mum, I've put the crayons back in the box.

 

[JonathanH]

Coming back to linking these services with the NDL.

Selfishly, I would be delighted if there was regular direct service between Blackwater and Basingstoke with a journey time of 45 minutes.

It's ok Mum, I've put the crayons back in the box.

Still wouldn't be quicker than going Farnborough North / Main.

Blackwater 1225
Farnborough North 1229

Farnborough (Main) 1245
Basingstoke 1258

Connection almost perfect for what Google Maps says is a 16 minute walk of less than a mile.

Better to keep train services simple and self contained unless there is an operational reason not to.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the present Reading - Basingstoke services, I would just leave it as a local shuttle.

This also comes in handy whenever there are problems on the Intercity Cross Country, as passengers can simply make their way to or from Reading if the ICXC is terminated short at Reading.

I read somewhere a while ago that there are proposals to open a station at Green Park (or somewhere between Reading West and Mortimer). As the timetable for the local Reading - Basingstoke shuttle does not have much scope for recovery, this would require a third diagram. Also, any delays on the local shuttle would just be contained to that particular route.

If there is a way possible in the future (perhaps after Reading - Basingstoke receives wires, and maybe after grade separation from GWR metals to London & South Western Railway metals at Basingstoke), the ICXC services could provide a 30 minute frequency between Birmingham and Winchester at least, perhaps continuing to Southampton as the present 2 hourly extension does (subject to XC getting their hands on additional IC stock, or more utilisation of the IC125 sets).

 

[coppercapped]

Regarding the present Reading - Basingstoke services, I would just leave it as a local shuttle.

This also comes in handy whenever there are problems on the Intercity Cross Country, as passengers can simply make their way to or from Reading if the ICXC is terminated short at Reading.

I read somewhere a while ago that there are proposals to open a station at Green Park (or somewhere between Reading West and Mortimer). As the timetable for the local Reading - Basingstoke shuttle does not have much scope for recovery, this would require a third diagram. Also, any delays on the local shuttle would just be contained to that particular route.

If there is a way possible in the future (perhaps after Reading - Basingstoke receives wires, and maybe after grade separation from GWR metals to London & South Western Railway metals at Basingstoke), the ICXC services could provide a 30 minute frequency between Birmingham and Winchester at least, perhaps continuing to Southampton as the present 2 hourly extension does (subject to XC getting their hands on additional IC stock, or more utilisation of the IC125 sets).

The station at Green Park, just north of the M4 and close(ish) to the industrial area at the M4/A33 junction has been delayed - partially because of the delays in the electrification of the Southcote Junction to Basingstoke section. As you say, adding this station would need three DMUs to maintain the 30 minute interval and this makes the operation uneconomic and pathing more difficult. The 387s with their greater acceleration than the 165/166s would enable the service to still be operated with two units.

Some years ago there was also a proposal to build a station at Chineham on the northern edge of Basingstoke. When I was small this was an insignificant dot on the map, now it has industry, lots of housing and supermarkets - I can see that, if the numbers make sense, a station here might be useful. Maybe after Green Park is built and with some judicious speed increases it might be possible...but I'm not holding my breath!

 

[FenMan]

Still wouldn't be quicker than going Farnborough North / Main.

Blackwater 1225
Farnborough North 1229

Farnborough (Main) 1245
Basingstoke 1258

Connection almost perfect for what Google Maps says is a 16 minute walk of less than a mile.

Actually it's a terrible connection that only the young and fit would attempt. The NDL service arrives on platform 1 at Farnborough North, which is marooned from the town by a controlled barrow crossing. The scheduled departure from Farnborough North is 1230, thus the walking part of the journey should start at 1230 or 1231. The walk does indeed take 16 minutes (I have long experience of this), so an "on time" arrival at Farnborough Main is 1246 or 1247. Many times I've turned into Station Approach just in time to see the 1245 heading west.

In reality, when travelling to Basingstoke I go via Reading. Hence my selfish preference for a direct service from Blackwater to Basingstoke - significantly faster journey times and no 16 minute walks whatever the weather!

 

[The Ham]

Actually it's a terrible connection that only the young and fit would attempt. The NDL service arrives on platform 1 at Farnborough North, which is marooned from the town by a controlled barrow crossing. The scheduled departure from Farnborough North is 1230, thus the walking part of the journey should start at 1230 or 1231. The walk does indeed take 16 minutes (I have long experience of this), so an "on time" arrival at Farnborough Main is 1246 or 1247. Many times I've turned into Station Approach just in time to see the 1245 heading west.

In reality, when travelling to Basingstoke I go via Reading. Hence my selfish preference for a direct service from Blackwater to Basingstoke - significantly faster journey times and no 16 minute walks whatever the weather!

The walk is possible in under 16 minutes, but then it does depend on how fit you are. I've made it between the stations in 10 minutes, but that involved quite a lot of running, which isn't easy given you go up and over quite a hill between the two stations.

One thing that could help would be a second access to Platform 1 at Main from the road bridge, add that would slightly shorten the route (most notably for Basingstoke to Blackwater direction).

However, chances are most people from Blackwater wood go via Reading. It is also worth noting that Reading to Farnborough is permitted via either route.

 

[peterson]

The station at Green Park, just north of the M4 and close(ish) to the industrial area at the M4/A33 junction has been delayed - partially because of the delays in the electrification of the Southcote Junction to Basingstoke section. As you say, adding this station would need three DMUs to maintain the 30 minute interval and this makes the operation uneconomic and pathing more difficult. The 387s with their greater acceleration than the 165/166s would enable the service to still be operated with two units.

Some years ago there was also a proposal to build a station at Chineham on the northern edge of Basingstoke. When I was small this was an insignificant dot on the map, now it has industry, lots of housing and supermarkets - I can see that, if the numbers make sense, a station here might be useful. Maybe after Green Park is built and with some judicious speed increases it might be possible...but I'm not holding my breath!

Do you know when Green Park station will open then?

There's also local talk of a huge new town at Grazeley (again) which would be predicated on a new station there. But I'm sure I also heard that Reading West will ultimate need to close to allow a freight only line??

I also believe I heard there was a suggestion to run Basingstoke to Paddington potentially using paths released by HEx. So there do seem to be plenty of reasons why services might change on this line over (considerable) time.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Shame only one Newcastle train ever two hours continues to Southampton beyond Reading. Why does every other Newcastle train terminate there?

 

[coppercapped]

Do you know when Green Park station will open then?

There's also local talk of a huge new town at Grazeley (again) which would be predicated on a new station there. But I'm sure I also heard that Reading West will ultimate need to close to allow a freight only line??

I also believe I heard there was a suggestion to run Basingstoke to Paddington potentially using paths released by HEx. So there do seem to be plenty of reasons why services might change on this line over (considerable) time.

According to this story, in 2018. My suspicion is that it will be delayed again until after electrification dates are certain.

The Grazeley suggestion which foresees housing on good quality farmland, it's not even a brownfield site, seems to be quiet at the moment. It is, however, bubbling through all the stages of the planning process as several district authorities are involved so I suspect not a lot will happen for five or six years or so. The nearby M4 is very heavily loaded in that area so I suspect some serious roadworks will also be necessary.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Shame only one Newcastle train ever two hours continues to Southampton beyond Reading. Why does every other Newcastle train terminate there?

Not enough time to get to somewhere like Guildford & back in the time available, also you have to factor in traincrew PNBs, also extra fuel, wear & tear and then there's pathway constraints as well.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not enough time to get to somewhere like Guildford & back in the time available, also you have to factor in traincrew PNBs, also extra fuel, wear & tear and then there's pathway constraints as well.

Just did the morning Guildford - Newcastle service this morning! Only to Reading though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Shame only one Newcastle train ever two hours continues to Southampton beyond Reading. Why does every other Newcastle train terminate there?

It's all explained in the various route studies, basically it cannot be pathed south of Basingstoke. I think it was also mentioned in the original track access negotiations for the 6 per day that do actually run.

The present 'extras' had a difficult start, XC had to use the access disputes resolution procedures, because Southern had already bagged the paths in the Southampton - Eastleigh area - SN were subsequently knocked back.

Only 1 train per two hours through to Southampton is pathable with existing infrastructure, mainly because of existing freight services. Basingstoke grade separation seems to be the key requirement, and an additional XC train is shown as one of its outputs, supposedly in CP6 (as written in 2015).

If they had track space to run the other Newcastle - Reading trains through to Southampton it would need one additional unit per day to be diagrammed.

 

[The Ham]

It's all explained in the various route studies, basically it cannot be pathed south of Basingstoke. I think it was also mentioned in the original track access negotiations for the 6 per day that do actually run.

The present 'extras' had a difficult start, XC had to use the access disputes resolution procedures, because Southern had already bagged the paths in the Southampton - Eastleigh area - SN were subsequently knocked back.

Only 1 train per two hours through to Southampton is pathable with existing infrastructure, mainly because of existing freight services. Basingstoke grade separation seems to be the key requirement, and an additional XC train is shown as one of its outputs, supposedly in CP6 (as written in 2015).

If they had track space to run the other Newcastle - Reading trains through to Southampton it would need one additional unit per day to be diagrammed.

Personally (at least it was until the possibility of extra wires anywhere in CP6 became unlikely) any extensions should await the wiring up of enough gaps in the lines run by XC to allow some units to be released by being able to run EMU. Be that either Manchester to South Coast and/or Newcastle to Reading/Southampton.

The reason for doing so is that it would allow XC to use EMU's, which would almost certainly be longer (as the lease costs of a DMU are more than a EMU and so you could have a 6 coach EMU for not much more than a 5 coach DMU, but also a 7 coach EMU would be 80% of the lease cost of a pair of 4 coach units) which would mean that on any services run by EMU's there would be more capacity for very little change in lease costs.

 

[swt_passenger]

Personally (at least it was until the possibility of extra wires anywhere in CP6 became unlikely) any extensions should await the wiring up of enough gaps in the lines run by XC to allow some units to be released by being able to run EMU. Be that either Manchester to South Coast and/or Newcastle to Reading/Southampton.

The reason for doing so is that it would allow XC to use EMU's, which would almost certainly be longer (as the lease costs of a DMU are more than a EMU and so you could have a 6 coach EMU for not much more than a 5 coach DMU, but also a 7 coach EMU would be 80% of the lease cost of a pair of 4 coach units) which would mean that on any services run by EMU's there would be more capacity for very little change in lease costs.

Indeed, and one of the alternatives in the Western route study (that has been discussed a few times in previous threads about this route) was for an additional Manchester to Basingstoke EMU service, to run via the Trent Valley and EWR. Which of course has probably been ruled out now by the later decision not to electrify EWR...

Earlier discussions considered whether this would be a third service actually operated by the Cross Country XC franchise, or a separate service that was 'cross country' in nature operated by someone else...

 

[Muzer]

Still wouldn't be quicker than going Farnborough North / Main.

Blackwater 1225
Farnborough North 1229

Farnborough (Main) 1245
Basingstoke 1258

Connection almost perfect for what Google Maps says is a 16 minute walk of less than a mile.

Better to keep train services simple and self contained unless there is an operational reason not to.

Not a guaranteed connection though. The fixed link time is 17 minutes, plus 5 minutes minimum connection at Farnborough (Main), plus 2 minutes for Farnborough North; making 24 minutes. So if you miss it, no delay repay.