My ideas for London - Kent timetable changes

[AlanFry1]

As people in North and South Kent will say that they're not happy with the new HS services as it slows down the standard services and reduces their frequencies and takes passengers a mile away (St Pancras).

So what if they built terminus platforms at Gravesend and Ashford Intrn'l and ran the domestic HS as shuttle trains to interchange with the standard SouthEastern services further along the line thus brining back the old frequencies and reducing the prices for the passenger along the way and giving them their old Victoria/Charing Cross/Canon Street terminals back in the process?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In recent months I have travelled on the SE High Speed to Ashford several times at various times off peak and every train has been very busy with almost every seat taken, so the service itself is clearly increasingly popular.

These services did not in themselves slow down and reduce the frequencies on the classic lines; that was a political decision to make the High Speed services more attractive to users.

The frequencies and journey times on the classic srvices could relatively easily be restored to their former level and timings with a few tweaks to avoid conflics where the new services share the tracks far more easily than introducing a shuttle service.

What might be useful would be to carry the Dover / Margate and Faversham services through to each other by creating a loop service out on one line and back on the other. You'd need more 395s, though ( as indeed would your shuttle ) and if there were to be more 395s they would first of all need them to boost the present off peak services to 12 cars to meet the rapidly growing demand.

 

[tbtc]

As people in North and South Kent will say that they're not happy with the new HS services as it slows down the standard services and reduces their frequencies and takes passengers a mile away (St Pancras)

My understanding is that the "classic" services were "slowed down" by adding in extra stops to the journeys.

If you want to speed up the Kentish services into Victoria/Charing Cross/Canon Street then what would happen to those local stations? Would they lose their service?

 

[SETCommuter]

When the HS service started, most small stations suffered. Mine for example went for 2tph in each direction to 1tph and what was the 2nd tph became the high speed which doesn't stop, just passes through. Other slowing down's of the services are things such as the previous fast service ran from Tonbridge to Ashford direct whereas now it stops at all stations in between.

The HS service is great if you're going to/from London from/to Ashford, Canterbury, Dover or Ramsgate but has made the service significantly worse for all other stations.

 

[AlanFry1]

My understanding is that the "classic" services were "slowed down" by adding in extra stops to the journeys.

If you want to speed up the Kentish services into Victoria/Charing Cross/Canon Street then what would happen to those local stations? Would they lose their service?

You missed the point I was making.

The point was to make HS domestic a connecting shuttle service only to connect with other SE services to by-pass London if you're coming from north of the river and build terminus platforms at Gravesend and Ashford Int'l to enable the old pre-December 2009 SE service glory.

When the HS service started, most small stations suffered. Mine for example went for 2tph in each direction to 1tph and what was the 2nd tph became the high speed which doesn't stop, just passes through. Other slowing down's of the services are things such as the previous fast service ran from Tonbridge to Ashford direct whereas now it stops at all stations in between.

The HS service is great if you're going to/from London from/to Ashford, Canterbury, Dover or Ramsgate but has made the service significantly worse for all other stations.

That's the exact problem while trying to benefit South Kent, North and West Kent has suffered as a result.

 

[craigwilson]

As people in North and South Kent will say that they're not happy with the new HS services as it slows down the standard services and reduces their frequencies and takes passengers a mile away (St Pancras).

My bold.

They're hardly new, they've been going three years now. Hopefully they (whoever they are) will have got used to things by now.

Also some people want St Pancras more often than not!!

So what if they built terminus platforms at Gravesend and Ashford Intrn'l and ran the domestic HS as shuttle trains to interchange with the standard SouthEastern services further along the line thus brining back the old frequencies and reducing the prices for the passenger along the way and giving them their old Victoria/Charing Cross/Cannon Street terminals back in the process?

Rather a complicated solution if you ask me, plus I'm not sure there'd be the station capacity anyway. I agree with Peter that running the former stopping patterns with a few tweaks would be better, if it was going to be done.

It comes down to the age-old problem that people want a frequent service, but they also want a fast one, and they also expect to be able to live in the nice, pretty bits of Kent and still get that level of service.

All those things are not necessarily mutually compatible.

 

[junglejames]

Before the high speed services came along, services from Dover to Charing Cross via Tonbridge were fast between Ashford and Tonbridge (perhaps 1 or 2 stops at most). They were then fast from Tonbridge to Waterloo East. Between Dover and Ashford, 1 train per hour stopped at Folkestone Central only, while the other train per hour stopped everywhere.
Ashford to Charing Cross was under an hour at best.

There were also 2 slow trains per hour which just went between Ashford and Charing Cross. These stopped at all stations between Ashford and Tonbridge, then the normal stops after that. Hildenburgh, Sevenoaks, Orpington etc etc.

Come the high speed services, and to try and push everyone onto them, they scrapped the slow services, and the fast services started stopping at all stations between Dover and Tonbridge, then normal stops after that. Ashford to Charing Cross slowed down by about 20mins.
This has been the main annoyance. If High Speed services were the same price, then it wouldnt be such a problem. But they arent, and its expensive enough as it is.

However there are some positives. North London is now a lot quicker to reach, and some stations have seen their frequencies doubled. For example, the small stations between Dover and Ashford (Sandling and Westenhanger) now get 2 trains per hour, and they connect quite nicely into the High speed services at Ashford.
Being selfish, it wouldnt be of benefit to me if the classic services were sped up, as my local (Westenhanger) would go back to 1 train per hour, and I am usually heading to North London, so HS1 is perfect for me.

What would be handy is if 1 train per hour was sped up north of Ashford (calling Tonbridge then Waterloo East), and 1 slow train per hour reintroduced from Ashford to London. That should keep everyone happy then.

Going back to my local. Not so long ago Westenhanger was threatened with closure. It only had peak time trains stopping there. It was probably only the adjacent racecourse that kept it open.
Then Connex suddenly decided to give it an all day service, with 1 train per hour. Then HS1 arrived, and now the station is laughing! Even if it isnt very busy still! Everything probably happened at the right time, as the racecourse is shortly going to close! Thank god it didnt close a few years back!

But anyway, back to HS1. It has benefitted some stations. The main problem is the slowing down of classic services. As I mentioned though, certainly for the Tonbridge line, there would seem to be a quite simple change which should keep most people happy.

 

[asylumxl]

I'm guessing you mean London Bridge and not Waterloo East. I can't see there being any point skipping it, plus it would rarely be possible.

 

[tbtc]

You missed the point I was making.

The point was to make HS domestic a shuttle service only to connect with other SE services to by-pass London if you're coming from north of the river and have the old SE service brought back to their pre-2009 glory.

...but if you want to speed up the "classic" services then presumably you either need to find a couple of extra paths into central London each hour (to reinstate the service pattern that junglejames referred to) so that the longer distance "classic" trains can be speeded up again?

Are there spare paths into Victoria/Charing Cross/Canon Street each hour to allow these services to be reinstated?

 

[junglejames]

I'm guessing you mean London Bridge and not Waterloo East. I can't see there being any point skipping it, plus it would rarely be possible.

Nope, i meant Waterloo East. Prior to the Highspeed services, the fast trains from Ashford and Dover were fast from Tonbridge to Waterloo East.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...but if you want to speed up the "classic" services then presumably you either need to find a couple of extra paths into central London each hour (to reinstate the service pattern that junglejames referred to) so that the longer distance "classic" trains can be speeded up again?

Are there spare paths into Victoria/Charing Cross/Canon Street each hour to allow these services to be reinstated?

Going back to the original service pattern would be daft, as you'd end up with 6 trains per hour between Ashford and London.
Id suggest just adding 1 extra Ashford to London slow train per hour, to allow one of the services from Dover to be sped up after Ashford.

Are there any paths for this? Not sure, but there certainly used to be. Depends if the paths taken up by the slow services have been used up by something else.
I'll stop stating the obvious now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As people in North and South Kent will say that they're not happy with the new HS services as it slows down the standard services and reduces their frequencies and takes passengers a mile away (St Pancras).

So what if they built terminus platforms at Gravesend and Ashford Intrn'l and ran the domestic HS as shuttle trains to interchange with the standard SouthEastern services further along the line thus brining back the old frequencies and reducing the prices for the passenger along the way and giving them their old Victoria/Charing Cross/Canon Street terminals back in the process?

Having thought about this, your plan wouldnt make the slightest difference.
You want just a shuttle between St Pancras and Ashford/ Gravesend?
Well the Highspeed services would still be competing with classic services between Ashford and London, exactly as they are now. SouthEastern would still want to make you use Highspeed services (they need to cover the extra costs of running on HS1), and so the classic services would stay as they are. Slow.
Think of it this way. 1hr from Ashford to Charing Cross, or 38mins to St Pancras, with the higher fare. The Highspeed services would lose custom. Plus people from say Folkestone and Dover would never use the Highspeed services, as the change at Ashford would mean Highspeed lost any time advantage it had. Even less passengers on Highspeed.
Nope, your plan would still see classic services remain as slow as they are. In fact, they may be slowed down even more to overcome the time lost by changing at Ashford onto HS1.

The only chance of speeding classic services up (assuming Highspeed services arent cut altogether, which they wont be), is if SouthEastern decided passenger satisfaction was more important than the extra money. Your plan is highly unlikely to make this more likely.

In reality though, classic services will never be sped up. They need to force passengers onto the Highspeed services.
Just look at all the propanda. They tried to make out Highspeed services saved you even more time than they really did. By comparing the times once classic services had been slowed down.

Highspeed services are very very handy. However the extra cost of running them means they have to charge extra. If you are going to charge extra, you have to make it very very attractive compared to the other services. This was only possible with the majority of people, by slowing everythng else down. It wont be changed.

 

[asylumxl]

Nope, i meant Waterloo East. Prior to the Highspeed services, the fast trains from Ashford and Dover were fast from Tonbridge to Waterloo East.

Weird. I've used London Bridge for quite a while now (way before HS1 services were introduced) and don't remember seeing any train run through. Only ever saw them stopping at Platform 6. I don't see the benefit though to be honest, it'd only cost them a few minutes and has obvious benefits in terms of connections.

 

[tbtc]

Going back to the original service pattern would be daft, as you'd end up with 6 trains per hour between Ashford and London.
Id suggest just adding 1 extra Ashford to London slow train per hour, to allow one of the services from Dover to be sped up after Ashford.

Are there any paths for this? Not sure, but there certainly used to be. Depends if the paths taken up by the slow services have been used up by something else

Cheers - I can't remember the "old" pattern, so I can't remember whether anything else was slotted into the London termini when the slower Kentish services were withdrawn - my memory is shocking

 

[OxtedL]

Weird. I've used London Bridge for quite a while now (way before HS1 services were introduced) and don't remember seeing any train run through. Only ever saw them stopping at Platform 6. I don't see the benefit though to be honest, it'd only cost them a few minutes and has obvious benefits in terms of connections.

Still happens a certain amount in the peaks - tis what the line betwixt platforms 6 and 8 is used for.

I never noticed it happening in the off peaks, but I'm not a Charing Cross person and I don't live in Dover, so it's never applied to me.

 

[mrmatt]

Still happens a certain amount in the peaks - tis what the line betwixt platforms 6 and 8 is used for.

I never noticed it happening in the off peaks, but I'm not a Charing Cross person and I don't live in Dover, so it's never applied to me.

Which is quite annoying in the am peak from Tonbridge as I need to get off at LBG, especially when there are service issues and the next LBG service is some unknown point in the future!

I'm hoping the rebuilding of London Bridge will mean all these start stopping there once it has a proper amount of CHX up capacity.

 

[OxtedL]

Which is quite annoying in the am peak from Tonbridge as I need to get off at LBG, especially when there are service issues and the next LBG service is some unknown point in the future!

I'm hoping the rebuilding of London Bridge will mean all these start stopping there once it has a proper amount of CHX up capacity.

In the short term it'll of course mean even less stops there...

I wonder if not stopping at London Bridge helps manage demand in any way, or if it will never happen again.

 

[JonathanH]

In the short term it'll of course mean even less stops there...

I wonder if not stopping at London Bridge helps manage demand in any way, or if it will never happen again.

From www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/12179.aspx

2015/6 Charing Cross services will not stop at
London Bridge
2016/7 Cannon Street services will not stop at
London Bridge

 

[Bushy]

Weird. I've used London Bridge for quite a while now (way before HS1 services were introduced) and don't remember seeing any train run through. Only ever saw them stopping at Platform 6. I don't see the benefit though to be honest, it'd only cost them a few minutes and has obvious benefits in terms of connections.

It is 33 years since my wife worked at Guys Hospital and she used to have to to Waterloo East and get the train back to London Bridge.

Before the high speed services came along, services from Dover to Charing Cross via Tonbridge were fast between Ashford and Tonbridge (perhaps 1 or 2 stops at most). They were then fast from Tonbridge to Waterloo East. Between Dover and Ashford, 1 train per hour stopped at Folkestone Central only, while the other train per hour stopped everywhere.
Ashford to Charing Cross was under an hour at best.

Again 30+ years ago, there were 3 tph, off peak, between Ashford and Charing Cross. The fast down services ran from Platform 6 at Charing Cross on the hour and the slow from Platform 5 at 5 past the hour. The fast did not stop between Waterloo East and Ashford. It was not unknown for people to get the wrong train.

Some of the fast trains had a buffet car. The 1900 attracted a lot of regular commuters some of whom who ran card schools. I used it once a week and remember standing at the bar on one occasion as we rattled across the points at Orpington. The guy drinking next to me asked where we were and was a bit shocked when the steward responded Orpington and proceeded to inform him that the next stop was Ashford, some 40 minutes down the line. The chaps wife was waiting for him at Orpington and this was, of course, before the days of mobile phones.

Regards

Bushy

 

[JonathanH]

I understand that a lot of novice commuters using trains from Charing Cross to change at London Bridge end up with a unforeseen trip to High Brooms before too long and end up learning the hard way that some services don't stop at London Bridge.

 

[yorkie]

Weird. I've used London Bridge for quite a while now (way before HS1 services were introduced) and don't remember seeing any train run through. Only ever saw them stopping at Platform 6. I don't see the benefit though to be honest, it'd only cost them a few minutes and has obvious benefits in terms of connections.

JungleJames is right, they were non-stop Tonbridge <> Waterloo East, and there's no platform on the fast (or whatever it's called) line towards Waterloo East, though they didn't call in either direction. It was a genuinely fast service.

The service has been deliberately slowed considerably in order to artificially make HS1 look more attractive. The 'Not HS1' fares should have been reduced to compensate, but in fact they were increased at a higher rate than other fares. Madness - but so typical of the DfT, who aren't known as 'DafT' for nothing.

 

[Controller1701]

JungleJames is right, they were non-stop Tonbridge <> Waterloo East, and there's no platform on the fast (or whatever it's called) line towards Waterloo East, though they didn't call in either direction. It was a genuinely fast service.

The offical term is Up Passenger Loop

Paul

 

[mrmatt]

From www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/12179.aspx

2015/6 Charing Cross services will not stop at
London Bridge
2016/7 Cannon Street services will not stop at
London Bridge

It is still far enough in the future that I can pretend it isn't going to happen. God only knows what the overcrowding will be while they do all this.

 

[junglejames]

All these people making out as if not stopping at London Bridge is a bad thing. It was only 2 trains max per hour. Virtually everything else stopped. It didnt cause problems before, and wouldnt do so in the future. There are still plenty of trains between the 2 stations to cope with the commuters.

Anyway, during the rush hour, I think even the fast trains stopped at London Bridge. It was only off peak that the trains missed it out, and its only during morning rush hour that the London bound trains get a huge turnover of passengers at London Bridge. Off peak wasnt half as bad.
For passengers coming from say Ashford, heading to London Bridge, you change at Tonbridge. I have done it before, and it didnt add much time onto the journey at all.

 

[paul1609]

Before the high speed services came along, services from Dover to Charing Cross via Tonbridge were fast between Ashford and Tonbridge (perhaps 1 or 2 stops at most). They were then fast from Tonbridge to Waterloo East. Between Dover and Ashford, 1 train per hour stopped at Folkestone Central only, while the other train per hour stopped everywhere.
Ashford to Charing Cross was under an hour at best.

There were also 2 slow trains per hour which just went between Ashford and Charing Cross. These stopped at all stations between Ashford and Tonbridge, then the normal stops after that. Hildenburgh, Sevenoaks, Orpington etc etc.

Come the high speed services, and to try and push everyone onto them, they scrapped the slow services, and the fast services started stopping at all stations between Dover and Tonbridge, then normal stops after that. Ashford to Charing Cross slowed down by about 20mins.
This has been the main annoyance. If High Speed services were the same price, then it wouldnt be such a problem. But they arent, and its expensive enough as it is.

However there are some positives. North London is now a lot quicker to reach, and some stations have seen their frequencies doubled. For example, the small stations between Dover and Ashford (Sandling and Westenhanger) now get 2 trains per hour, and they connect quite nicely into the High speed services at Ashford.
Being selfish, it wouldnt be of benefit to me if the classic services were sped up, as my local (Westenhanger) would go back to 1 train per hour, and I am usually heading to North London, so HS1 is perfect for me.

What would be handy is if 1 train per hour was sped up north of Ashford (calling Tonbridge then Waterloo East), and 1 slow train per hour reintroduced from Ashford to London. That should keep everyone happy then.

Going back to my local. Not so long ago Westenhanger was threatened with closure. It only had peak time trains stopping there. It was probably only the adjacent racecourse that kept it open.
Then Connex suddenly decided to give it an all day service, with 1 train per hour. Then HS1 arrived, and now the station is laughing! Even if it isnt very busy still! Everything probably happened at the right time, as the racecourse is shortly going to close! Thank god it didnt close a few years back!

But anyway, back to HS1. It has benefitted some stations. The main problem is the slowing down of classic services. As I mentioned though, certainly for the Tonbridge line, there would seem to be a quite simple change which should keep most people happy.

This seems to come up quite a lot but the reality is that HS1 has taken well over 90% of the Ashford and beyond traffic from and to London. The classic route trains are all but empty departing Ashford for London, the intermediate stations to Tonbridge offer far more traffic so it would make no sense whatsoever for the classic trains to run non stop anymore.

 

[cle]

It is still far enough in the future that I can pretend it isn't going to happen. God only knows what the overcrowding will be while they do all this.

I think it will be an absolute nightmare.

Thinking Greenwich line - currently you catch the first train and change at LB. There's never a long wait and a lot of people do this to get to their terminus.

But with this, it'll be either piling onto the specific train (Charing Cross doesn't have too many in the peak) or another route. For example, I'm in Soho for work, so I'll get the Central line from Bank (2 mins from Cannon St).

 

[dk1]

I use HS1 frequently for the short 7 minute sprint between Stratford & St Pancras & too have noticed how much busier they are becoming. Also good to see several passengers boarding/alighting at Stratford Intl throughout the day.

Did i read something recently about major developments starting around Ebbsfleet?

 

[AlanFry1]

Having thought about this, your plan wouldnt make the slightest difference.
You want just a shuttle between St Pancras and Ashford/ Gravesend?
Well the Highspeed services would still be competing with classic services between Ashford and London, exactly as they are now. SouthEastern would still want to make you use Highspeed services (they need to cover the extra costs of running on HS1), and so the classic services would stay as they are. Slow.
Think of it this way. 1hr from Ashford to Charing Cross, or 38mins to St Pancras, with the higher fare. The Highspeed services would lose custom. Plus people from say Folkestone and Dover would never use the Highspeed services, as the change at Ashford would mean Highspeed lost any time advantage it had. Even less passengers on Highspeed.
Nope, your plan would still see classic services remain as slow as they are. In fact, they may be slowed down even more to overcome the time lost by changing at Ashford onto HS1.

The only chance of speeding classic services up (assuming Highspeed services arent cut altogether, which they wont be), is if SouthEastern decided passenger satisfaction was more important than the extra money. Your plan is highly unlikely to make this more likely.

In reality though, classic services will never be sped up. They need to force passengers onto the Highspeed services.
Just look at all the propanda. They tried to make out Highspeed services saved you even more time than they really did. By comparing the times once classic services had been slowed down.

Highspeed services are very very handy. However the extra cost of running them means they have to charge extra. If you are going to charge extra, you have to make it very very attractive compared to the other services. This was only possible with the majority of people, by slowing everythng else down. It wont be changed.

Congratulations SouthEastern for being the bunch of money-grabbers they are and speaking of the propaganda part just to add to the facts that firstly they treat London like it's the size of a dot, secondly they don't even offer free connectivity to Victoria, Canon Street, Charing Cross or London Bridge and plus making those journeys will just make the journey take the same amount of time even against the now slowed down slow services!

Plus thanks to the fragmented railways there is NO competition for train services in Kent and South East London so much for competition John Major! I really hope this doesn't happen with HS2 as well!

Just watch this BBC news report and notice how the Head of SE tries to sweep the problem under the rug and brag about the bit of HS rail in Kent while he's clearly having this running through his greedy head!

JungleJames is right, they were non-stop Tonbridge <> Waterloo East, and there's no platform on the fast (or whatever it's called) line towards Waterloo East, though they didn't call in either direction. It was a genuinely fast service.

The service has been deliberately slowed considerably in order to artificially make HS1 look more attractive. The 'Not HS1' fares should have been reduced to compensate, but in fact they were increased at a higher rate than other fares. Madness - but so typical of the DfT, who aren't known as 'DafT' for nothing.

And that too as the HS1 services running on classic old 3rd rail lines shouldn't even be more expensive if you let's say go from Margate to Faversham as that journey won't even run on new 25kv AC lines... and well said about the DfT/DafT part as well.

My Two Pence:

Once again privatisation has failed us and is ripping-off the average Joe over for the sake of enormous profits!

 

[fergusjbend]

In my opinion the HS services which run via AFK are a significant improvement. The St Pancras to Faversham service, however, is an absurd waste of resources.The 140mph Class 395 trains manage about 77mph between St Pancras and Ebsfleet, but then crawl along the rest of the route at 47mph. Unless the North Kent Line can be upgraded to provide better speeds, this service is just irrelevant.

Fergus

 

[AlanFry1]

In my opinion the HS services which run via AFK are a significant improvement. The St Pancras to Faversham service, however, is an absurd waste of resources.The 140mph Class 395 trains manage about 77mph between St Pancras and Ebsfleet, but then crawl along the rest of the route at 47mph. Unless the North Kent Line can be upgraded to provide better speeds, this service is just irrelevant.

Fergus

Well said fergusjbend and anyone can just ask former users of the old Victoria to Faversham service upon how fumed they are over higher prices and slower connectivity and that fiasco of a service is practically the main reason I suggested the connection shuttle idea as Gravesend's the first station that diverges off the main HS1 line.

Also what do you mean by AFK?

 

[cle]

I think Ashford.

I agree on the North Kent line - it really is a bit pathetic how it crawls along. It's a shame that HS1 hasn't been followed by general works on the Kent lines to upgrade running speeds and signalling.

That way, the now-ubiquitous stoppers wouldn't have such a penalty. For example, trains stopping everywhere east of Rochester?!

 

[NSEFAN]

Plus thanks to the fragmented railways there is NO competition for train services in Kent and South East London so much for competition John Major! I really hope this doesn't happen with HS2 as well!

Realistically, passenger operations can't really compete on the railways. Duplicate services are a waste of resources, and nowadays a lot of mainlines are filling up, reducing opportunities for new operators to step in. There are some cases where competition exists, but this tends to be for parallel longer-distance routes, such as London-Birmingham. Freight is the only sector of the railway which benefits from competing operators.

When HS2 opens, it is likely the current WCML service will include more stops to better serve intermediate stations. Therefore a similar situation will occur for HS2 as has happened for HS1. Some stops like Coventry will experience an increased journey time towards London, but overall the capacity of the system will be improved dramatically. I wouldn't at all be suprised if HS2 fares attract a premium, but hopefully there will still be the option of cheap advance fares at off-peak times.

The TOCs themselves don't take away a lot of profit from their operations. Most of the revenue goes to Network Rail, the ROSCOs and the Treasury. There's also a fair bit in legal fees for all the lawyers holding these fragments together. It's not so much greed which is pushing up costs, just a lot of individual parasitic entities dragging down efficiency.