My open access proposal from Southampton to Liverpool

[waterboo]

Hello all,

Given that many passengers in the South of England often resort to changing trains at London to continue their journey to the North, I was wondering how feasible you believe a service from Southampton Central to Liverpool Lime Street would be?

The calling points would be:

- Southampton Central
- Southampton Airport Parkway
- Eastleigh
- Salisbury
- Warminster
- Trowbridge
- Bradford Upon Avon
- Bath Spa
- Bristol Temple Meads
- Newport
- Hereford
- Shrewsbury
- Wrexham
- Chester
- Liverpool Lime Street

Many Thanks

 

[PHILIPE]

Hello all,

Given that many passengers in the South of England often resort to changing trains at London to continue their journey to the North, I was wondering how feasible you believe a service from Southampton Central to Liverpool Lime Street would be?

The calling points would be:

- Southampton Central
- Southampton Airport Parkway
- Eastleigh
- Salisbury
- Warminster
- Trowbridge
- Bradford Upon Avon
- Bath Spa
- Bristol Temple Meads
- Newport
- Hereford
- Shrewsbury
- Wrexham
- Chester
- Liverpool Lime Street

Many Thanks

There was one in the early 2000s which split/joined at Newport with a Cardiff portion. Ran from Shrewsbury via Crewe. Not possible to run Chester to Liverpool until Halton Curve re-opens, 2018 I think.

 

[anti-pacer]

Hello all,

Given that many passengers in the South of England often resort to changing trains at London to continue their journey to the North, I was wondering how feasible you believe a service from Southampton Central to Liverpool Lime Street would be?

The calling points would be:

- Southampton Central
- Southampton Airport Parkway
- Eastleigh
- Salisbury
- Warminster
- Trowbridge
- Bradford Upon Avon
- Bath Spa
- Bristol Temple Meads
- Newport
- Hereford
- Shrewsbury
- Wrexham
- Chester
- Liverpool Lime Street

Many Thanks

XC already link Southampton with the North. However I woukd like to see Liverpool directly connected again to the XC network.

In 1996-7 whilst living in Banbury, once a month after work I used to travel to Liverpool for the weekend to see one of my best mates and his partner, who originally came from Southampton of all places. I loved getting on the train in Banbury and getting off in Liverpool after just under 3 hours of sitting back, relaxing, and getting slowly merry from a few cans. Happy days.

There's no doubt your journey proposal would a scenic one, but servicing a South Coast-North West market, well I can't see it.

 

[DerekC]

I like the idea, but have a feeling it won't compete on journey time, even if there is some demand out there. Adding up the current times taken on the sections of the route gives:

Southampton to Newport - 2hr 15 min (GWR)
Newport to Chester - 2hr 45 min (ATW)
Chester to Liverpool - 45 min (Merseyrail via Birkenhead)

Grand total of nearly 6 hours, compared with 4hr 30 min (roughly) by current services via either Birmingham New Street or London. Admittedly the ATW and Merseyrail services are stoppers and you should be able to shave a goodish chunk off these legs, but I doubt you could get near the current alternatives.

 

[DerekC]

There was one in the early 2000s which split/joined at Newport with a Cardiff portion. Ran from Shrewsbury via Crewe. Not possible to run Chester to Liverpool until Halton Curve re-opens, 2018 I think.

You could run via Birkenhead - assuming you were allowed through the Mersey tunnel. Might need a 3rd-rail capable bimode!!

 

[PHILIPE]

You could run via Birkenhead - assuming you were allowed through the Mersey tunnel. Might need a 3rd-rail capable bimode!!

How ? You couldn't run a fast train with a stopping service of 6 trains an hour beyond Hooton. 4 up until. Before any additional service could be run a Business case would have to be evaluated.

 

[anti-pacer]

Personally I think if Liverpool is to have services using the Marches Line, it should have direct services to Cardiff, maybe linking up to the existing Holyhead services in Chester.

Passengers travelling end to end from Southampton to Liverpool can do so very easy with a same platform interchange at Wolverhampton and also possibly Stafford.

As I said earlier it would be nice to see Liverpool connected to the XC network again. Direct services to both the South Coast and the South West. For a city the size of Liverpool it's not greatly connected to the South. However, a long journey via Bristol, Newport and Shrewsbury isn't the answer.

 

[najaB]

What kind of stock do you propose using?

 

[waterboo]

Personally I think if Liverpool is to have services using the Marches Line, it should have direct services to Cardiff, maybe linking up to the existing Holyhead services in Chester.

Passengers travelling end to end from Southampton to Liverpool can do so very easy with a same platform interchange at Wolverhampton and also possibly Stafford.

As I said earlier it would be nice to see Liverpool connected to the XC network again. Direct services to both the South Coast and the South West. For a city the size of Liverpool it's not greatly connected to the South. However, a long journey via Bristol, Newport and Shrewsbury isn't the answer.

I totally agree that some consideration should be given to operating at Cardiff, and I cannot see any reason why some services could not be terminated there.

Whilst it would be great to see CrossCountry services linking up to Liverpool, services still have to negotiate reversing at Reading and crossing the busy Birmingham New Street, which can seriously affect the schedule of the service if there was any delays in these areas.
What I like about the Marshes Line is that there is less of a need to have 'padding time' inserted to the timetable, and for stations between S'thampton and Bristol T'Meads. they benefit from an extra TPH, aswell as having a direct connection as opposed to changing 2 times.

I think the demand for the service will be similar to the demand that attracts Cross Country Services -> The need for South to North services avoiding major cities and congested mainlines as well as strengthening the number of trains per hour on the lines that it runs over.

And yes, it also lays over to the wonderful scenery that It would pass through.

What kind of stock do you propose using?

Pacers!!! No seriously, I would probably suggest using HST/Class 43 coupled with Mk4 or Mk3 carriages that have been made redundant from the procurement of IEP on the East Coast Mainline.

 

[6Gman]

No seriously, I would probably suggest using HST/Class 43 coupled with Mk4 or Mk3 carriages that have been made redundant from the procurement of IEP on the East Coast Mainline.

I fear a 2car 175 might be more practical!

 

[Chester1]

How about loco hauled 442s?

 

[waterboo]

Perhaps if the 442 were converted to diesel transmission, like the class 230 then they would be a very attractive option.

 

[Blaahh]

Nah the 442s have been secretly converted at Eastleigh to run on diesel, gas, coal, mars bars and air. They are the future to run anywhere!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I said earlier it would be nice to see Liverpool connected to the XC network again.

It would indeed. The only reason it isn't was the need to cut XC back massively due to Virgin having seriously under-ordered rolling stock.

Re-equip XC properly (I like the idea of 8-"car" FLIRT bi-modes or similar, or I suppose Class 80x), and it could well return - it'd certainly be better than the appalling punctuality and reliability of the LM service to Brum, let alone the lack of comfort when a 350/2 turns up again.

 

[Class 170101]

There was one in the early 2000s which split/joined at Newport with a Cardiff portion. Ran from Shrewsbury via Crewe. Not possible to run Chester to Liverpool until Halton Curve re-opens, 2018 I think.

Liverpool TO Chester via Halton curve is actually the problem. However how about running via Wavertree, Warrington Bank Quay and Runcorn East.

 

[anti-pacer]

It would indeed. The only reason it isn't was the need to cut XC back massively due to Virgin having seriously under-ordered rolling stock.

Re-equip XC properly (I like the idea of 8-"car" FLIRT bi-modes or similar, or I suppose Class 80x), and it could well return - it'd certainly be better than the appalling punctuality and reliability of the LM service to Brum, let alone the lack of comfort when a 350/2 turns up again.

Totally agree.

 

[tbtc]

Personally I think if Liverpool is to have services using the Marches Line, it should have direct services to Cardiff

I totally agree that some consideration should be given to operating at Cardiff

I'd respectfully disagree.

Shrewsbury/ Hereford/ Cwmbran/ Abergavenny (etc) already have an almost half hourly service to Cardiff (hourly ex Manchester plus bi-hourly ex Holyhead plus "WAG Express"), but no Bristol service - now that everything has to go to Cardiff under the Wales & Borders franchise.

But you've got roughly 150,000 people on the Marches line with no direct service to a decent sized city - which might be enough people to fill a 158 or 175 from time to time. The same could be said of the north Wales coast having no direct service to the nearest big city (Liverpool).

Obviously the Wales & Borders franchise have enough problems with capacity on their existing Marches services, before we have the luxury of worrying about new services/ routes, but I'll enter into the spirit of the OP's post.

I've suggested a Bristol - Liverpool service before (on the basis that there would be some 158s coming free, before the current electrification woes). Running via Crewe instead of Wrexham, partly due to the single line issues on the Wrexham line, so I like the idea of this. It's not another "London" Open Access proposal, it doesn't require reopening of some closed line (assuming that the Halton upgrade will happen).

But, part of the strength is also a weakness (in today's fragmented railway). It's great that it doesn't fit neatly into an existing TOC (so isn't competing/ abstracting) but touching on SWT/ GWR/ W&B/ Merseyrail (and on England and Wales) means that it would struggle to find a champion arguing in favour of it.

I can see the argument for putting Liverpool back on the XC map. But the problem is that there are always going to be significantly more "Cross Country" services north of Birmingham (2x Liverpool, 1x "Scotland", 2x Manchester, 2x Newcastle, 2x Nottingham... compared to 2x South West and 2x Thames Valley) that would mean a zero sum game where any Liverpool service (via Birmingham to Bristol/ Reading etc) would be at the expense of somewhere else - clever clever suggestions about splitting/joining long distance services at New Street notwithstanding.

The Southampton section of the OP's suggestion - I'm less keen on - a bit of a "dog leg". If you are going to target the "Granny" market of passengers who'd prefer to sit on a direct train for six hours rather than change in central London for a much faster journey then you might as well go the whole hog and suggest extending this "cross country" service back to start at Brighto... nah, maybe not!

 

[DerekC]

How ? You couldn't run a fast train with a stopping service of 6 trains an hour beyond Hooton. 4 up until. Before any additional service could be run a Business case would have to be evaluated.

Oh dear. And I was going to suggest that the 442s, with the addition of a diesel package in the buffet, would make a great 3rd rail bi-mode for the Merseyrail section. They could bimble along the south coast to Brighton as well, to keep tbtc happy.

 

[randyrippley]

Conceptually its not much different from when the class 33s ran Southampton - Cardiff - Newport - Chester - Crewe and occasionally Manchester. Just a case of stringing the various stages together into one service.
Sometimes even the coaching sets from the Soton-Cardiff service would run forward to Crewe, although that was never shown in the public timetable.
So whats new?

 

[D6975]

As pointed out above the Marches stations already have a good service to Cardiff. If you're going to put a Liverpool service in then a limited stop Bristol would be a better idea. LS Parkway, Crewe, Salop, Hereford, TM.

 

[All Line Rover]

Financially it would only make sense running via Oxford and Penkridge. Yes, that would abstract revenue from XC somewhat, but it would compensate greatly for XC's s*** network.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they had the rolling stock and staff could all the cuts made during Operation Princess be reversed or are a lot of the paths now spoken for with other services?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they had the rolling stock and staff could all the cuts made during Operation Princess be reversed or are a lot of the paths now spoken for with other services?

 

[Gareth]

Hello all,

Given that many passengers in the South of England often resort to changing trains at London to continue their journey to the North, I was wondering how feasible you believe a service from Southampton Central to Liverpool Lime Street would be?

The calling points would be:

- Southampton Central
- Southampton Airport Parkway
- Eastleigh
- Salisbury
- Warminster
- Trowbridge
- Bradford Upon Avon
- Bath Spa
- Bristol Temple Meads
- Newport
- Hereford
- Shrewsbury
- Wrexham
- Chester
- Liverpool Lime Street

Many Thanks

I do like this idea. Liverpool's been screwed over in recent times, mainly due to the rather modern idea that it's peripheral and that Birmingham and Manchester are on the mainline 'on the way' to Scotland. Got done over with HS2 due to similar thinking.

The Bristol half looks really good and would go some way to compensating Liverpool not being on the CrossCountry network if a reasonable frequency could be achieved. Southampton would be very indirect from Liverpool and it would be quicker changing for a CrossCountry train but for someone wanting to go to the likes of Salisbury or Warminster, a direct train on your route may well prove competitive.

Needless to say: not going to happen but nice idea anyway.

 

[route:oxford]

Grand total of nearly 6 hours, compared with 4hr 30 min (roughly) by current services via either Birmingham New Street or London.

1:22m Southampton Central - Oxford
1:43m Milton Keynes - Liverpool Lime Street

That's 3h05m.

So, if it takes less than 1h25m to get from Oxford to Milton Keynes when East-West opens, it's likely the Southampton-Liverpool passenger flow dynamic will not be via London, Birmingham New Street or even Bristol.

Indeed, I'd suggest to anyone who was considering an OA operation to look at a Northampton-Southampton diagram with power-doored HSTs.

I rather suspect that a diagram that connects Northampton, MK, Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke & Southampton would be near enough impossible to lose money on.

 

[JamesRowden]

Indeed, I'd suggest to anyone who was considering an OA operation to look at a Northampton-Southampton diagram with power-doored HSTs.

I think that your service idea would count as being primarily extractive since Network Rail are suggesting running an electric Cross Country Manchester to Basingstoke service via East West Rail.

There aren't any spare Reading-Southampton peak paths through Basingstoke until a grade separated junction is built.

 

[PHILIPE]

1:22m Southampton Central - Oxford
1:43m Milton Keynes - Liverpool Lime Street

That's 3h05m.

So, if it takes less than 1h25m to get from Oxford to Milton Keynes when East-West opens, it's likely the Southampton-Liverpool passenger flow dynamic will not be via London, Birmingham New Street or even Bristol.

Indeed, I'd suggest to anyone who was considering an OA operation to look at a Northampton-Southampton diagram with power-doored HSTs.

I rather suspect that a diagram that connects Northampton, MK, Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke & Southampton would be near enough impossible to lose money on.

How are you going to get from Milton Keynes to Oxford, or at least until the East/West link starts ? What you mention is not a diagram but a train service.

 

[route:oxford]

How are you going to get from Milton Keynes to Oxford, or at least until the East/West link starts ? What you mention is not a diagram but a train service.

If you start an OA application today, it'll take years to be approved anyway - so might as well plan ahead for something that hasn't been done before.

 

[8A Rail]

Not a journey I would take as it would ultimately take too long! Likewise, I think you could do the whole journey by car quicker and probably cheaper if there more than one of you travelling. May be better for those people on the immedaite stations to get to Southampton / Liverpool rathe rthan between the two locations. Also I would add Liverpool South Parkway to the list of stations too given its "link" to Liverpool John Lennon Airport.

Travelling via WBQ and L&M route would make the journey longer too and not as attractive, so via Halton Curve is the only option.

 

[frodshamfella]

I hope when the Halton curve reopens fully more options from Liverpool should be made possible. Cardiff for sure.