My proposal for an East Anglia long-distance service rejig

[SprinterMan]

The upcoming possible TPE takeover of Liverpool to Sheffield got me thinking about possibly rejigging the long-distance services into East Anglia. I think this will be more in line with where demand is. More units may be needed, so hopefully ScotRail can give GA/XC some 170s or 158s :P

Ipswich - Nottingham (EMT)

1tph - Class 158s - HPQ extensions to meet ferry, in place of AGA IPS-PBO service, Manea, March & Whittlesea are operated by EMT in place of AGA

(Harwich International) - Ipswich - Stowmarket - Bury St. Edmunds - Ely - Manea - March - Whittlesea - Peterborough - Grantham - Bingham - Nottingham


Norwich - Birmingham (XC)

1tph - Class 170s - GYM extensions on Summer Saturdays

(Great Yarmouth) - Norwich - Wymondham - Attleborough - Thetford - Ely - March - Peterborough - Stamford - Oakham - Melton Mowbray - Leicester - Narborough - Hinckley - Nuneaton - Coleshill Parkway - Water Orton - Birmingham New Street


Stansted Airport - Birmingham (XC)

1tph - Class 170s - Extension of BHM-LEI stopper

Stansted Airport - Audley End - Whittlesford Parkway - Ely - March - Peterborough - Stamford - Oakham - Melton Mowbray - Leicester - South Wigston - Narborough - Hinckley - Nuneaton - Coleshill Parkway - Birmingham New Street


Norwich - Stansted Airport (1) (AGA)

1tp2h - Class 170s - Alternates with Norwich - Stansted Airport (2), Lakenheath as additional call in rush hours

Norwich - Wymondham - Attleborough - Eccles Road - Harling Road - Thetford - Brandon - Ely - Cambridge - Whittlesford Parkway - Great Chesterford - Audley End - Elsenham - Stansted Airport


Norwich - Stansted Airport (2) (AGA)

1tp2h - Class 170s - Alternates with Norwich - Stansted Airport (1), Shippea Hill as additional call in rush hours

Norwich - Wymondham - Spooner Row - Attleborough - Thetford - Brandon - Ely - Cambridge - Shelford - Whittlesford Parkway - Audley End - Newport - Stansted Airport


Cambridge - Ipswich (AGA)

1tph - Class 170s - Kennett & Dullingham are request stops

Cambridge - Dullingham (x) - Newmarket - Kennett (x) - Bury St. Edmunds - Thurston - Elmswell - Stowmarket - Needham Market - Ipswich


OR


Ipswich - Nottingham (EMT)

1tph - Class 158s - HPQ extensions to meet ferry, in place of AGA IPS-PBO service

(Harwich International) - Ipswich - Stowmarket - Bury St. Edmunds - Ely - Peterborough - Grantham - Bingham - Nottingham


Norwich - Birmingham (XC)

1tph - Class 170s - GYM extensions on Summer Saturdays

(Great Yarmouth) - Norwich - Wymondham/Attleborough (alternating) - Thetford - Ely - Peterborough - Stamford - Oakham - Melton Mowbray - Leicester - Narborough/Hinckley (alternating) - Nuneaton - Coleshill Parkway - Birmingham New Street


Peterborough - Birmingham (XC)

1tph - Class 170s - Extension of BHM-LEI stopper, Water Orton is CLOSED due to proximity to Coleshill Parkway

Peterborough - Stamford - Oakham - Melton Mowbray - Leicester - South Wigston - Narborough - Hinckley - Nuneaton - Coleshill Parkway - Birmingham New Street


Norwich - Cambridge(AGA)

1tph - Class 170s - Spooner Row alternates with Eccles Road & Harling Road, Shippea Hill & Lakenheath are CLOSED

Norwich - Wymondham - Spooner Row (1tp2h) - Attleborough - Eccles Road (1tp2h) - Harling Road (1tp2h) - Thetford - Brandon - Ely - Cambridge


Ely - Stansted Airport (AGA)

1tph - Class 317s

Ely - Cambridge - Whittlesford Parkway - Audley End - Stansted Airport


Cambridge - Stansted Airport(AGA)

1tph - Class 317s

Cambridge - Shelford - Whittlesford Parkway - Great Chesterford - Audley End - Newport - Elsenham - Stansted Airport


Cambridge - Peterborough(AGA)

2tph - Class 170s - Waterbeach and Manea alternate

Cambridge - Waterbeach (1tph) - Ely - Manea (1tph) - March - Whittlesea - Peterborough


Cambridge - Ipswich (AGA)

1tph - Class 170s - Kennett & Dullingham are request stops

Cambridge - Dullingham (x) - Newmarket - Kennett (x) - Bury St. Edmunds - Thurston - Elmswell - Stowmarket - Needham Market - Ipswich


What do people think? Which proposal is better? Any feedback welcome

Adam

 

[High Dyke]

I'm not to keen about the Nottingham - Manchester / Liverpool service being sacrificed by EMT (whether they get a say in it or not). I use this service to get to/from football matches in the North-West. It would mean me having to pay for a ticket if the plan came to fruition.

 

[TheEdge]

Well over serving the Breckland line, no need for anything like that intensity of service for the intermediate stops.

 

[David Goddard]

Mmm some interesting proposals there.
Anything to increase Leicester - Peterborough to 2tph and restore longer distance to the St Edmunds line has to be good news.

Now if the branches from Ely to Peterborough and Norwich were wired that gives even more scope, such as through services to London via Cambridge.

I posted some ideas on here a while back which I will try and root out.

 

[chubs]

I use the Norwich to Manchester service and would be very disappointed if it ended. Whenever I'm on it a lot of people travel that far and some even stay on to Liverpool (boarding at Norwich or Ely or Peterborough), but I know this notion was shot down last time by enthusiasts who were convinced that would never happen.

 

[TheBigD]

...Shippea Hill as additional call in rush hours...

What rush hour at Shippea Hill??? There's f*ck all there...

 

[Bald Rick]

Increasing service Bury - Ely has to wait until redoubling Soham-Ely due to the amount of freight around.

Stansted tunnel is full, so new services to Stansted must take an existing path.

Finally, increasing services Ely - Peterboro, and to a lesser extent Ely - Norwich, will require upgrades to some level crossings, including possible closure of some of the busier ones. Starts to get expensive.

 

[adrock1976]

The Ipswich - Nottingham service I would have it continue to Manchester beyond Nottingham calling at Beeston, Long Eaton, Derby, Matlock, Bakewell, Buxton, New Mills Central, Bredbury, Ashburys, and Manchester Piccadilly.

Obviously, this would require the reinstatement of the track between Matlock and Buxton, and would restore the diagonal route from Derby to Manchester.

In peace

Adam

 

[Class 170101]

The latest Network Rail looked at some options for this area so might be an interesting read.

Personal view
The intermediate Stations between Norwich and Ely (except Thetford) only warrant an hourly service so

The existing Norwich to Cambridge extended to Stansted Airport calling intermediately at Whittlesford and Audley End.

Norwich to Birmingham service calling at Thetford, Ely, Peterborough, Leicester and then forward to New Street calling at stations served by current Leicester to New Street service.

Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street to call additionally at March

Ipswich to Liverpool service
Hourly calling at Stowmarket, Bury, Ely, March, Whittlesea (2hourly), Peterborough, Grantham, Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Newton Le Willows, Liverpool Lime Street.

One of the WA Liverpool Street to Cambridge services extended to Ely.

As for Shippea Hill, Lakenheath, Harling Road, Eccles Road and Spooner Row, I would just close the lot unless some demand is about to be created by new housing or employment development.

 

[306024]

What rush hour at Shippea Hill??? There's f*ck all there...

There's not even a Hill

Oh for the days of Mildenhall Air Show and the bus service from the station to the base. Nearly every train called at Shippea Hill on that weekend.

As for Shippea Hill, Lakenheath, Harling Road, Eccles Road and Spooner Row, I would just close the lot unless some demand is about to be created by new housing or employment development.

Looking forward to your appearance at the inevitable village hall meeting to discuss these closures

 

[CockneySparrow]

What rush hour at Shippea Hill??? There's f*ck all there...

Closed down isn't it other than 1 train a day to Norwich, the Ely bound platform is likely to be well overgrown and crumbling away
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for Shippea Hill, Lakenheath, Harling Road, Eccles Road and Spooner Row, I would just close the lot unless some demand is about to be created by new housing or employment development.

They are more or less closed as it is, Lakenheath has no weekday stops only on at the weekend for the RSPB place, not sure how many people use it, the other three stations towards Norwich I believe school kids use the existing services that stop

 

[SprinterMan]

Thanks for the feedback everyone

What rush hour at Shippea Hill??? There's f*ck all there...

There are a few people there, give them an opportunity to use their station. If not, the calls can easily be withdrawn again.

Closed down isn't it other than 1 train a day to Norwich, the Ely bound platform is likely to be well overgrown and crumbling away

Shippea Hill still gets one Cambridge-bound train per week on a Saturday The last time I saw it the station seemed remarkably well maintained considering it's sparse service

2K91 1838 Norwich to Cambridge

As for Shippea Hill, Lakenheath, Harling Road, Eccles Road and Spooner Row, I would just close the lot unless some demand is about to be created by new housing or employment development.

They are more or less closed as it is, Lakenheath has no weekday stops only on at the weekend for the RSPB place, not sure how many people use it, the other three stations towards Norwich I believe school kids use the existing services that stop

Eccles Road, Harling Road & Spooner Row all seem to be surrounded by houses, and as far as I am concerned warrant a better service (as Manea has received) to see if demand is there. They are hard to use at the moment because of the few trains that serve them.

Adam

 

[Aictos]

One question could not the existing Peterborough to Ipswich and Cambridge to Ipswich services be combined to form a loop service so it does Peterborough to Peterborough via Ely, Ipswich, Cambridge and Ely?

Other then that, the existing Birmingham to Leicester services need to be extended to Stansted to provide 2tph between Stansted and Birmingham not to mention a later service of around 2300 from Stansted even if only to Leicester.

 

[CockneySparrow]

One question could not the existing Peterborough to Ipswich and Cambridge to Ipswich services be combined to form a loop service so it does Peterborough to Peterborough via Ely, Ipswich, Cambridge and Ely?

Other then that, the existing Birmingham to Leicester services need to be extended to Stansted to provide 2tph between Stansted and Birmingham not to mention a later service of around 2300 from Stansted even if only to Leicester.

It wouldn't be that attractive for those in Ipswich who wish to travel north as it would easily add at least an hour onto the journey
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's not even a Hill

Oh for the days of Mildenhall Air Show and the bus service from the station to the base. Nearly every train called at Shippea Hill on that weekend.

Looking forward to your appearance at the inevitable village hall meeting to discuss these closures

Perhaps that's why they aren't closed as Shippea Hill doesn't have a village hall to discuss the closure, suppose they can use the abandoned signal box if it is still there, I haven't been that way for a while, guess its been demolished now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Years ago all these stations were request stops, also remember there being a pub next to SPP station

 

[jopsuk]

the Breckland line stations could make for useful P&R to Cambridge, which can't cope with any more cars, if they had a decent service. Which would then encourage development out there (we need more houses around Cambridge). Especially with the Science park station coming (providing direct access to large employment areas in the north of the city)

 

[jamesontheroad]

The latest Network Rail looked at some options for this area so might be an interesting read.

Indeed...

The Network Rail Anglia Route Study was published on 5 November 2014 (PDF here). Consultation is open until 3 February 2015. There has been some discussion of the document here, but mainly focused on the London / Norwich mainline.

The study includes analysis and proposals for "cross boundary" services, i.e. trains that start/end outside the area of the study, but which have to be taken into consideration. This is covered in chapter 4, from page 67 of the PDF. It's quite short, but it outlines how a 'cross-boundary process' has been developed for to project possible passenger and freight services with a few worked examples to demonstrate the approach.

Of interest is this section...

Cambridge and Nottingham

4.8.1 Even taking into account the simplifications which connections (rather than direct trains) allow, it is still necessary to include more trains than today to allow the conditional outputs to be met. For example between Cambridge and Nottingham the Long Distance Market Study conditional output is ‘B/E’ which is defined as two to three trains per hour (tph) with an average speed of 100mph, or three to four tph at 60mph.

4.8.2 The base train service operating at the end of Control Period 5, has no direct train between Cambridge and Nottingham. There is the opportunity to travel to Nottingham once per hour and interchange at Ely.

4.8.3 Thus to fully meet the conditional output requires at least the addition of a direct travel opportunity of one or more trains and/ or increased opportunities to interchange (potentially with a significant acceleration of the services).

4.8.4 Note that the conditional outputs are a guide to the overall Generalised Journey Time (GJT) desired. The GJT is composed of in-vehicle time, waiting time and interchange penalty. Thus GJT may be improved by combinations of faster trains, more trains or better connections.

4.8.5 It is also necessary to make further assumptions in order to keep the specification manageable.

Norwich–Nottingham

4.8.6 Alongside the Cambridge - Nottingham conditional output there is a conditional output for Norwich - Nottingham at level C (one to two tph at 80mph), but only one train per hour in the 2019 base year. This implies at least one to two additional Norwich - Nottingham train required each hour.

4.8.7 Assuming for a moment that Nottingham – Cambridge and Nottingham – Norwich cannot be served by the same trains, this would equate to between five and eight trains to serve the markets. The extra three to four trains per hour would clearly be impractical and uneconomic from a service provision perspective, even before network capacity constraints are taken into account.

4.8.8 Therefore, combination of the conditional outputs onto a number of services allows the diverse markets to be met by a lower net number of trains, overall.

4.8.9 Ely has been identified as an appropriate location to undertake splitting and joining of trains allowing a single train to meet multiple conditional outputs for the Nottingham market.

Basically, the worked examples in the study include:

• 1tph (each way) between Ipswich/Norwich (joining/dividing at Ely) and Liverpool Lime Street
• 1tph each way between Cambridge/Norwich (joining/dividing at Ely) and Derby
• 1tph each way between Norwich and Birmingham
• 1tph each way between Stansted Airport and Birmingham

or (as a lesser example)

• 1tph each way between Ipswich/Norwich (joining/dividing at Ely) and Liverpool Lime Street
• 1tph each way between Cambridge/Norwich (joining/dividing at Ely) and Derby
• 1tph each way between Norwich and Birmingham via Leicester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are more or less closed as it is, Lakenheath has no weekday stops only on at the weekend for the RSPB place, not sure how many people use it, the other three stations towards Norwich I believe school kids use the existing services that stop

I don't entirely get these Parliamentary-type services - I know they are to avoid complications/objections from closure, but IMO there should be legislation to prevent and protect against this. Either close it, or increase the service using request stops so if people don't use it it isn't causing an issue. Or are they scared people might actually want to use it? Stranger things have happened - see the S&C closure proposals of the 1980s.

Neil

 

[jamesontheroad]

the Breckland line stations could make for useful P&R to Cambridge, which can't cope with any more cars, if they had a decent service. Which would then encourage development out there (we need more houses around Cambridge). Especially with the Science park station coming (providing direct access to large employment areas in the north of the city)

Joking aside about Shippea Hill, Cambridge was back in the news recently as the most expensive city to live in outside of London. Part of the solution must be new housing along the Breckland and Fen Lines. Unfortunately, in our government's current neoliberal mindset, it remains a chicken and egg situation. No new houses will be built until there's a decent rail service, and no new rail service will be implemented until there's passenger demand.

(Meanwhile, in France, they'd have built a couple of new towns at places like Shippea Hill, Manea, etc and implemented a new train service )

Not mentioned so far in the discussion is, if and when it happens, how Wisbech joins the mix.

In a separate thread about "stations in one county between two stations in another county" I learnt a lot about Newmarket, namely that heading east towards Bury St. Edmunds, the trackbed of the former curve to Soham and Ely is basically intact. If Soham is to be redoubled, and if a new station is to built there, there might be sense in routing trains Cambridge - Newmarket - Soham - Ely - March - Wisbech. That's not so convenient for Wisbech - Cambridge passengers, but as the two towns are about a 75 minute drive apart it shouldn't really be a priority to add another direct train between Ely and Cambridge. Thoughts?

 

[greatkingrat]

Cambridge and Nottingham

4.8.1 Even taking into account the simplifications which connections (rather than direct trains) allow, it is still necessary to include more trains than today to allow the conditional outputs to be met. For example between Cambridge and Nottingham the Long Distance Market Study conditional output is ‘B/E’ which is defined as two to three trains per hour (tph) with an average speed of 100mph, or three to four tph at 60mph.

This seems like overkill to me. How are you ever going to get an average speed of 100mph between Cambridge and Nottingham? Even something like Euston - New Street only averages about 80mph over the whole journey. 1tph might be useful but that would seem to be enough.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

If you were to add a third train per hour out of Norwich - presumably to Birmingham - why not skip Ely on it? This could provide a faster East-West link and reduce potential conflict at Ely.
I do think Wymondham & Attleborough could benefit from half hourly services - at least at busy times of day - for travel to/from Norwich.

 

[43074]

This is purely hypothetical, but:

• Is there any scope for Norwich - Liverpool services to run from Stansted Airport, thus serving Cambridge and filling a known market from Stansted & Cambridge to Nottingham, Sheffield & Manchester? Casual observation of Norwich - Liverpool services at Peterborough seems to suggest many of these empty at Peterborough in the Westbound (bar 30 at the most perhaps) and vice-versa in the Eastbound, suggesting that perhaps the origin of the Peterborough - Norwich service in the West isn't particularly critical.
• With this in mind, the existing Peterborough - Norwich services could originate at Birmingham New Street and call at Coleshill, Nuneaton, Leicester & Peterborough (utilising the existing path from here-on to Norwich), and call at Melton, Oakham, Stamford, March, Attleborough & Wymondham at peak times when there is additional demand from these stations.
• Stansted - Birmingham services would remain largely as now, except Ely - Birmingham would benefit from 2tph (which would have the secondary benefit of improving connections from the Kings Lynn line to Leicester/Birmingham, eliminating what is currently a 50 minute wait at Ely).
• The Peterborough - Ipswich service needs doubling to an hourly frequency (which would make Ipswich - Bury St Edmunds half hourly), with provision of additional stock and doubling of Ely - Soham. It seems that finance and a shortage of avaliable rolling stock prevents this from happening.

So you would end up with:

• 1tph Liverpool - Stansted - calling at South Parkway, Warrington Central, Widnes, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Alfreton, Nottingham, Grantham, Peterborough, March, Ely, Cambridge, Audley End & Stansted Airport
• 1tph Birmingham - Norwich, calling at Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Leicester, (Melton Mowbray, Oakham & Stamford at peak times only), Peterborough, March, Ely, Thetford (Attleborough & Wymondham at peak times only) & Norwich
• 1tph Birmingham - Stansted, calling at Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, (Whittlesea at peak times only), March, Ely, Cambridge, Audley End & Stansted Airport and;
• 1tph Peterborough - Ipswich, calling at Whittlesea, March, Manea (alternate trains), Ely, Soham, Bury St Edmunds, Stowmarket & Ipswich

- in which case there would be no splitting or joining at Ely, which is already a congested bottleneck and the majority of destinations served gain rather than lose out.

 

[TheBigD]

This is purely hypothetical, but:

• Is there any scope for Norwich - Liverpool services to run from Stansted Airport, thus serving Cambridge and filling a known market from Stansted & Cambridge to Nottingham, Sheffield & Manchester? Casual observation of Norwich - Liverpool services at Peterborough seems to suggest many of these empty at Peterborough in the Westbound (bar 30 at the most perhaps) and vice-versa in the Eastbound, suggesting that perhaps the origin of the Peterborough - Norwich service in the West isn't particularly critical.
• With this in mind, the existing Peterborough - Norwich services could originate at Birmingham New Street and call at Coleshill, Nuneaton, Leicester & Peterborough (utilising the existing path from here-on to Norwich), and call at Melton, Oakham, Stamford, March, Attleborough & Wymondham at peak times when there is additional demand from these stations.
• Stansted - Birmingham services would remain largely as now, except Ely - Birmingham would benefit from 2tph (which would have the secondary benefit of improving connections from the Kings Lynn line to Leicester/Birmingham, eliminating what is currently a 50 minute wait at Ely).

• 
  
  Unless you want to retime both services west of Ely you would need to interwork the Liverpool service with the Birmingham service and withdraw the (limited) Cambridge-Stansted trains that Anglia currently run... And as the Stansted-Birmingham service interworks with the Leicester-Birmingham you end up with a typical diagram being...
  
  Liverpool-Stansted-Birmingham-Norwich and then the reverse...
  
  As for Birmingham-Norwich, this used to be the main axis of the service back in the 1980's... Along with a few services from Cambridge & Ipswich...
  
  Not sure there's room across Ely North Junction for everything you propose though...