My suggestion for Cardiff to the Heart of Wales direct trains

[Envoy]

This week, ATW are running a direct train (1Z37) from Cardiff to Builth Road via the Swansea District Line in order to convey people to the Royal Welsh Show. It departs Cardiff at 7.14am & reaches Pontarddulais at 8.27. I could not find anything about it on the ATW or Royal Welsh websites so it looks like they wish to keep it a secret. (It returns later in the day).

Anyway, this service knocks about 45 minutes off the time it would normally take to get from Cardiff to Pontarddulais. I was wondering if the Heart of Wales would get more tourist passengers if a train say left Cardiff at about 9.15am using this route? Passengers could stay on the train all the way to Craven Arms (or Shrewsbury) & then make their own way back via the Marches line with possible stop offs at say Ludlow / Hereford. The current disincentive to making such a trip is the lengthy journey via the scenic HOW. Likewise, people at the southern end of the HOW - Llandovery, Llandeilo, Ammanford etc. might make more use of trains that go direct to Cardiff than the current services via Llanelli. (Perhaps a service could still also go via Llanelli)?

If regular trains use the Swansea District Line, a new station could be built by the M4 at Morriston from which people heading for central Swansea (or the hospital), could use a bus link.

 

[yorkie]

The problem is you are then running non-stop between Port Talbot and Pontarddulais, missing out a lot of stations, including Swansea and Llanelli.

The Heart of Wales is single track with some passing loops, so it's difficult to envisage a regular service via your suggested route in addition to the route via Swansea and Llanelli.

 

[craigybagel]

Not sure if there's a large potential market for passengers from the HOWL to Cardiff, but I can tell you that passenger numbers making that journey at present are negligible. Most people at the north end are either going to Shrewsbury or connecting for destinations further north or London. I understand from talking to my Carmarthen based colleagues that most people at the south end are going to Swansea. That's where the market is.

The increased crossing times that came about with the new timetable that only added 1 train a day,and not over the full length at that, show how difficult it would be to change the timetable there, even if there was a market for Cardiff passengers.

 

[berneyarms]

Not sure if there's a large potential market for passengers from the HOWL to Cardiff, but I can tell you that passenger numbers making that journey at present are negligible. Most people at the north end are either going to Shrewsbury or connecting for destinations further north or London. I understand from talking to my Carmarthen based colleagues that most people at the south end are going to Swansea. That's where the market is.

The increased crossing times that came about with the new timetable that only added 1 train a day,and not over the full length at that, show how difficult it would be to change the timetable there, even if there was a market for Cardiff passengers.

Any word from your colleagues on how the new morning commuter service into Swansea is doing loading wise, and similarly the later mid-morning service into Shrewsbury (the deferred first train out of Swansea)?

 

[craigybagel]

Some trains are busier than before and some are quieter. Probably too early to say anything more than that, though I've certainly seen peoples journey patterns are changing. The thru running to Crewe in particular has been quite popular.

 

[berneyarms]

Some trains are busier than before and some are quieter. Probably too early to say anything more than that, though I've certainly seen peoples journey patterns are changing. The thru running to Crewe in particular has been quite popular.

Thanks for that.

Yes you really need to wait a full six months to see how the services work out.

But that's positive news regardless.

 

[PHILIPE]

We mustn't lose sight now that any new services have to be financially viable.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

We mustn't lose sight now that any new services have to be financially viable.

Or supported through a modified franchise payment ......(like the extra Sunday HoW services were when ATW took over - previously the SRA paid a grant for the extra pair of trains through the Rail Passenger Partnership scheme)

 

[craigybagel]

Thanks for that.

Yes you really need to wait a full six months to see how the services work out.

But that's positive news regardless.

It will be interesting to see how many of the school children (who used to make up 90% of the passengers on the first Swansea-Shrewsbury under the old timetable) renew their season tickets in September, now that the times are much worse for them, both for the Hereford and Shrewsbury bound students.

The other big journey loss is for the passengers who used to use the 0900 from Shrewsbury to go shopping in Llandrindrod. They used to have about 90 minutes there, they now have 20 which isn't much use.

Hopefully the opportunities given by the new timetable will help cancel out the passenger losses caused by the above issues, but its too early to tell yet.

 

[Envoy]

I contend that we really don't know what the loadings would be on any trains following my suggested route via the Swansea District Line. As things stand, First have a regular (every 20 minutes or so) bus service from Swansea to Pontarddulais & Ammanford (with some extended to Llandeilo).
It looks like anyone heading into the main shopping area of Swansea (by the bus station) would probably take roughly the same time using the bus as using the HOW train service - which is far from frequent.

I am not sure how many travel to the shops in Llanelli but my understanding is that the town centre is not doing well since the Trostre shopping 'sheds' opened. The rail station in Llanelli is also about a mile from the town centre.

Another idea could be to re-build the direct line from Pontarddulais to Swansea via Gorseinon & Gowerton. Thus, Gorseinon would gain a direct rail link into Swansea. A quick look on Goole Earth shows that most of this route is intact with just a bit of building at the Gowerton end. It should certainly be the subject of a route protection order for possible future use.

It takes about 45 minutes to drive from Pontarddulais to Cardiff. This means that for those with a car, it really is unviable to use any rail service for such a journey. (We can also throw in the population of Ammanford on that one). That means that for those with a car, they can drive to Cardiff - with vastly superior shopping area to Swansea - in about the same time as it would take by train to Swansea. So, the only way that a rail service could compete is to go direct via the District Line. We have already seen with the Ebbw Vale example, that by providing a direct rail service to a desired destination from an outlying area, that a new market is created. We also have the added bonus of connecting with trains going east to England in a much quicker way than via Llanelli & Swansea. (It is unlikely that many are going to/from HOW to SW Wales, but even if they were, then the obvious answer would be for a bus link using the short cut (A40) between Llandeilo & Carmarthen. (A railway did exist on this route). Trains coming off the HOW are not matched with trains heading west at Llanelli.

An new station at Morriston with a P&R by the M4 could also prove attractive with a bus link to Morriston Hospital. Another new station could serve the new Coed Darcy development which the SDL skirts.
www.coeddarcy.co.uk

Regarding tourist travel, Cardiff is the place with the most hotels/visitors. You would be hard pressed to suggest to them that they do a circuit of southern Wales & the Marches using the present set up. However, if given decent rolling stock in the future, a train leaving Cardiff at about 9.15am & travelling direct via the Swansea District Line to Pontarddulais, could well prove an attractive suggestion. Thus we could induce more tourist traffic onto the FULL LENGTH of the HOW with them either getting off at Shrewsbury or Craven Arms before travelling back south via the Marches at their leisure making stops at Ludlow, Hereford etc should they so desire.

Those people with Welsh Bus Passes might like to know that they can use the HOW (& some other routes) for free. (You would be well advised to check the passes places of trains on particular days to figure out when to jump off for a train going the other way - or know how long you will have to wait 'in the outback').http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/ConcessionaryTravel/

 

[Llanigraham]

Those people with Welsh Bus Passes might like to know that they can use the HOW (& some other routes) for free. (You would be well advised to check the passes places of trains on particular days to figure out when to jump off for a train going the other way - or know how long you will have to wait 'in the outback').http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/ConcessionaryTravel/

But not all year!!
Quote from your link in respect of the Heart of Wales:
This scheme is available to all holders of a Concessionary Travel Pass issued by any Welsh Local Authority. Pass holders will be eligible for free travel on all ATW services between Swansea and Shrewsbury. This period commences from 1st October 2015 until the 31st March 2016.

 

[craigybagel]

But not all year!!
Quote from your link in respect of the Heart of Wales:
This scheme is available to all holders of a Concessionary Travel Pass issued by any Welsh Local Authority. Pass holders will be eligible for free travel on all ATW services between Swansea and Shrewsbury. This period commences from 1st October 2015 until the 31st March 2016.

And a good thing that is too. Believe it or not there's no space for them the rest of the year. And ticket prices down there are already a lot cheaper than in most places, even before you use a HOWL railcard.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I seem to recall when I worked for ATW a few years back there was a trial of a train from Cardiff Central - Heart of Wales, must have left at some point around 8-9am but can't remember specifics. I'm guessing it didn't really take off.

 

[swcovas]

I seem to recall when I worked for ATW a few years back there was a trial of a train from Cardiff Central - Heart of Wales, must have left at some point around 8-9am but can't remember specifics. I'm guessing it didn't really take off.

Yes, 2006 tt shows 0809 departure from Cardiff. Just an extension of the 0900 ish departure that has run from Swansea for many years. I guess it was started at Cardiff for operational reasons as opposed to any desire to tap into a potential Cardiff to Mid Wales market.

 

[70014IronDuke]

.....

The increased crossing times that came about with the new timetable that only added 1 train a day,and not over the full length at that, show how difficult it would be to change the timetable there, even if there was a market for Cardiff passengers.

I am sure you are generally correct, ie it would not be easy to add more trains to the HoWL without more passing loops (or higher line speeds), in other words, expensive infrastructure changes.

However, the timetable as is now, as I understand it, is mainly constrained by the problem of stock, ie there was none extra available - they just had to squeeze out the early morning two trains from other diagrams.

The problem with that is, of course, that you know have two early morning commuter arrivals (and one probably 20 - 25 mins too early into Shrewsbury to suit most needs) and two quite good mid-morning arrivals either end for shopping, visits to solicitors etc - but only one return working in the evenings.

Surely both Shrewsbury and Swansea need a 16.30-ish departure to really make travel by train to these centres sensibly attractive

These trains need not necessarily go the entire length of the line - just like the new morning commuter trains, they could stop short. eg the northern
one at Llandrindrod, the southern one at Llandeilo, or even Amannford at a pinch.

but the huge afternoon gaps in departures, as now, from 14.00-ish to past 18.00, must deter an awful lot of potential passengers.

 

[berneyarms]

The timetable is not only constrained by rolling stock, but also:

- Timings of Shrewsbury-Crewe and v.v. services
- Availability of paths between Shrewsbury and Craven Arms
- Availability of paths between Llanelli and Swansea
- Crossing point locations between Craven Arms and Llanelli

All of these combined make timetabling the route optimally extremely difficult. Hence we end up with extended waits at certain crossing points because there simply is no other option.

 

[PHILIPE]

I am sure you are generally correct, ie it would not be easy to add more trains to the HoWL without more passing loops (or higher line speeds), in other words, expensive infrastructure changes.

However, the timetable as is now, as I understand it, is mainly constrained by the problem of stock, ie there was none extra available - they just had to squeeze out the early morning two trains from other diagrams.

The problem with that is, of course, that you know have two early morning commuter arrivals (and one probably 20 - 25 mins too early into Shrewsbury to suit most needs) and two quite good mid-morning arrivals either end for shopping, visits to solicitors etc - but only one return working in the evenings.

Surely both Shrewsbury and Swansea need a 16.30-ish departure to really make travel by train to these centres sensibly attractive

These trains need not necessarily go the entire length of the line - just like the new morning commuter trains, they could stop short. eg the northern
one at Llandrindrod, the southern one at Llandeilo, or even Amannford at a pinch.

but the huge afternoon gaps in departures, as now, from 14.00-ish to past 18.00, must deter an awful lot of potential passengers.

Yes, ironically, the additional services had an adverse effect making it worse for existing travellers instead of better !!!

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, ironically, the additional services had an adverse effect making it worse for existing travellers instead of better !!!

Yup. I can imagine kids arriving at schools in Shrewsbury at 08.15 or some such is a drag for them. however, for anyone continuing north, the earlier arrival could be a great advantage, of course. The early morning arrival into Swansea must attract more commuters, considering they could not make it before 09.10 or so before (from memory).

Operating question: is there anything in terms of single line operations that prevents a train turning mid-section? ie could, say, a Sunday working be inserted that had a train departing Swansea at 09.00 to Ammanford and turn there - or does it have to complete the section, ie go on to Llandeilo before it can turn back?

 

[DaveHarries]

This week, ATW are running a direct train (1Z37) from Cardiff to Builth Road via the Swansea District Line in order to convey people to the Royal Welsh Show. It departs Cardiff at 7.14am & reaches Pontarddulais at 8.27. I could not find anything about it on the ATW or Royal Welsh websites so it looks like they wish to keep it a secret. (It returns later in the day).

I did see posters for this at Cardiff Central. If, however, you go to the Arriva Trains Wales website and select Travelling With Us => Special Events => Events and Festivals it says that details will be published under "News" but you are right in saying there is nothing there.

Dave

 

[70014IronDuke]

I did see posters for this at Cardiff Central. If, however, you go to the Arriva Trains Wales website and select Travelling With Us => Special Events => Events and Festivals it says that details will be published under "News" but you are right in saying there is nothing there.

Dave

Isn't this a regular train when there are shows on C Wales? Could it be that ATW know there is a regular travelling base, and are actually loathe to advertise it too much for fear of overcrowding?

 

[PHILIPE]

Isn't this a regular train when there are shows on C Wales? Could it be that ATW know there is a regular travelling base, and are actually loathe to advertise it too much for fear of overcrowding?

It's been widely advertised in previous years

 

[Envoy]

The fare structure does not always help. Put in for Cardiff (CDF) to Llandrindod Wells (LLO) & you will find that northbound, the trip takes around 2 hours 46 minutes via the Marches with a change at CRV. For this, ATW will charge a massive £61 off peak return - pay on the day as no cheaper advance tickets available. However, you will also notice that you can do the journey for £26.30 off peak return by going via Swansea & then up the HOW. The problem with this is that it takes 3 hours 41 minutes. This must hold the UK record for the greatest reduction in price of a rail journey that takes 1 hour longer than the more expensive shorter journey.

Goodness knows what ATW logic is in this price structure? Perhaps it is because they are so short of rolling stock on the Marches that they are trying to force customers on such a journey to go the long way round?
Perhaps they don't want customers and want people to use the bus service instead?

Coming back south, the Marches route still wins on time at 3 hours 9 minutes via CRV & 3 hours 44 minutes via HOW - Swansea.

 

[craigybagel]

Cardiff to Craven Arms is £46.10 so to Llandrindrod via Craven Arms needs to be at least that much. The leg from there to Llandrindrod is admittedly a bit over priced given its £6.60 for a single (only single or day return is available).

All of the intermediate fares on the HOWL are quite cheap for the distance involved (I suspect it's subsidised) so it also makes sense for tickets routed that way to be cheap. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is here?

 

[Envoy]

Cardiff to Craven Arms is £46.10 so to Llandrindrod via Craven Arms needs to be at least that much. The leg from there to Llandrindrod is admittedly a bit over priced given its £6.60 for a single (only single or day return is available).

All of the intermediate fares on the HOWL are quite cheap for the distance involved (I suspect it's subsidised) so it also makes sense for tickets routed that way to be cheap. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is here?

The problem is that anybody considering going from Cardiff to Llandrindod can only get a reasonably priced rail ticket by going on a route that takes roughly 1 hour longer than the expensive route via Craven Arms. Thus, they are not likely to use either route.

Buying Today for today, I am getting a price of £38.10 return from Cardiff to Craven Arms. A similar length of journey with FGW from Cardiff to Westbury (Wilts) costs nearly half at £20.40. If ATW were charging the same for the journey CDF to CRV plus add a bit from CRV to Llandrindod, they could be able to offer the same lower fare that they offer via the longer route via Llandeilo. So, compared to First pricing on their routes, it would appear than ATW are over charging on the Marches route.