National Express Coaches Discussion

[Wilko82]

Can’t comment on the accuracy of the claims but people are complaining about the drivers on twitter of the 501 for being agressive/racist

That does not surprise me one bit. From having a bit of background information Park's have a reputation of having a high turnover of staff, mainly due to being low payers, so will essentially employ anyone.

Go North East still operate NX work right? I'm sure Go South Coast would be willing to try.

Go North East do. Go South West have their own coach hire company + Dartline so certainly have the resources

Yes Go North East are still a NX operator, and a good one at that. However that does not mean that theor South West counterparts wil be interested in taking on any diagrams. I doubt that they, or any other coach operator would be able to be able to make the operation viable due to Park's being such a cowboy operator with their low pay and and the amount of corners they cut with how they push both vehicles and staff to the limit.

Other work can be put through as a manual entry on your tacho card when you put it into the tacho machine.

But of course manual entries can be open to abuse. For example its not uncommon for a London bound service to be waiting at Taunton Deane for a driver, who then jumps straight behind the wheel of.the coach after inserting his card. Given the distance and time involved from Plymouth to Victoria I struggle to see how that can be allowed without a legal working time break.

 

[PG]

But of course manual entries can be open to abuse. For example its not uncommon for a London bound service to be waiting at Taunton Deane for a driver, who then jumps straight behind the wheel of.the coach after inserting his card. Given the distance and time involved from Plymouth to Victoria I struggle to see how that can be allowed without a legal working time break.

Possibly because, if I understand correctly, other work does not count towards driving hours (even though in this case it involves driving a car) but does count towards length of the working day. I'm not agreeing with the principle of this approach, only mentioning that AFAIK it is legally permitted.

 

[Stena Galloway]

That does not surprise me one bit. From having a bit of background information Park's have a reputation of having a high turnover of staff, mainly due to being low payers, so will essentially employ anyone.




Yes Go North East are still a NX operator, and a good one at that. However that does not mean that theor South West counterparts wil be interested in taking on any diagrams. I doubt that they, or any other coach operator would be able to be able to make the operation viable due to Park's being such a cowboy operator with their low pay and and the amount of corners they cut with how they push both vehicles and staff to the limit.


But of course manual entries can be open to abuse. For example its not uncommon for a London bound service to be waiting at Taunton Deane for a driver, who then jumps straight behind the wheel of.the coach after inserting his card. Given the distance and time involved from Plymouth to Victoria I struggle to see how that can be allowed without a legal working time break.

It can be open to abuse but you have zero proof that is actually happening. Also a driver can do manual entries in a coach in the depot then drive a car to pick up his coach. Then when you put your card in you just put other work through from the time the card was ejected from the machine till the time you put it in. All very simple.

 

[PG]

I doubt that they, or any other coach operator would be able to be able to make the operation viable due to Park's being such a cowboy operator with their low pay and and the amount of corners they cut with how they push both vehicles and staff to the limit.

It can be open to abuse but you have zero proof that is actually happening

Indeed without proof we need to be mindful of slanderous statements. Of course someone with inside information could steer (pun intended) the Traffic Commissioners office in the right direction.

 

[Stena Galloway]

Possibly because, if I understand correctly, other work does not count towards driving hours (even though in this case it involves driving a car) but does count towards length of the working day. I'm not agreeing with the principle of this approach, only mentioning that AFAIK it is legally permitted.

This is very true. You could drive a coach for say 3 hours on EU work then go and do a local service. As much as you are driving a local bus this doesn't add to your EU driving hours but is classed as other work.

 

[philthetube]

Can’t comment on the accuracy of the claims but people are complaining about the drivers on twitter of the 501 for being agressive/racist

if drivers re being racist then twitter is not the place to report it

 

[Wilko82]

This is very true. You could drive a coach for say 3 hours on EU work then go and do a local service. As much as you are driving a local bus this doesn't add to your EU driving hours but is classed as other work.

But the point here is, a driver is driving the pool card from Plymouth to Taunton Deane services (approx a 90 minute drive) and then jumping straight into the seat of the NX service, which is approximately a 4 hour run. That is a 5½ working time shift before any allowances for delays or then shunting the coach for layover. Given that drivers are to take a mandatory working time break after 5½ of work then it shows how close to the limit Park's run their shifts. As has previously been mentioned I am not convinced that working time is being recorded correctly.

 

[Stena Galloway]

But the point here is, a driver is driving the pool card from Plymouth to Taunton Deane services (approx a 90 minute drive) and then jumping straight into the seat of the NX service, which is approximately a 4 hour run. That is a 5½ working time shift before any allowances for delays or then shunting the coach for layover. Given that drivers are to take a mandatory working time break after 5½ of work then it shows how close to the limit Park's run their shifts. As has previously been mentioned I am not convinced that working time is being recorded correctly.

The actual length you can go without a break is 6 hours which is covered in the working time directive.
You don't know if the driver has drove up had a break then jumped into the coach.
You have zero proof of what the drivers are putting on there cards so why keep talking about it?

 

[henryb]

if drivers re being racist then twitter is not the place to report it

- they reported it to NX who asked for further details

 

[Lewisham2221]

Possibly because, if I understand correctly, other work does not count towards driving hours (even though in this case it involves driving a car) but does count towards length of the working day. I'm not agreeing with the principle of this approach, only mentioning that AFAIK it is legally permitted.

That's my understanding too. Hours driving a car do not count towards driving hours, only total working hours.

But the point here is, a driver is driving the pool card from Plymouth to Taunton Deane services (approx a 90 minute drive) and then jumping straight into the seat of the NX service, which is approximately a 4 hour run. That is a 5½ working time shift before any allowances for delays or then shunting the coach for layover. Given that drivers are to take a mandatory working time break after 5½ of work then it shows how close to the limit Park's run their shifts. As has previously been mentioned I am not convinced that working time is being recorded correctly.

I'm not sure you should be making quite serious allegations based on approximations and personal opinion.

The actual length you can go without a break is 6 hours which is covered in the working time directive.
You don't know if the driver has drove up had a break then jumped into the coach.
You have zero proof of what the drivers are putting on there cards so why keep talking about it?

You can actually go longer than 6 hours before having a break, it's a common misunderstanding - the working time directive only dictates that you are entitled to take a break of at least 20 minutes if your shift is 6 hours or longer. It does not dictate that you must take a break, nor does is it mean that you are entitled to take your break no more than 6 hours into your shift. It's also commonly misunderstood as meaning that you are entitled to a 20 minute break per 6 hours worked - this is incorrect, somebody working a 12 shift is only legally entitled to the same 20 minute break as someone working a 6 hour shift. Of course, driving hours regulations for PCVs (and HGVs) stipulate longer breaks after shorter maximum periods of driving relevant vehicles.

 

[NIT100]

News that National Express and Scottish Citylink now have a partnership.

National Express grows in Scotland via Scottish Citylink partnership

https://www.facebook.com/sharer.php...n-scotland-via-scottish-citylink-partnership/
National Express has partnered with Scottish Citylink to offer increase its services across the border into Scotland.
From today (25 February 25), tickets for frequent daily services from multiple locations in England to and from Scottish cities including Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Dundee, Glasgow, Inverness and Stirling will be available via the National Express website.
John Boughton, Commercial Director at National Express, says: “We’re pleased to be partnering with Scottish Citylink to boost our presence in Scotland, connecting hundreds of destinations on our UK-wide network with key cities across the border.
“We want to help people make those all-important money-saving choices when it comes to travelling.
“This partnership not only offers a convenient and seamless booking experience for our customers, they can also enjoy the benefits of affordable and more reliable journeys compared to rail or air travel.”
Scottish Citylink Managing Director Simone Walsh, adds: “This is great news for our customers who now have another booking option when planning their journeys and buying tickets. Partnering with National Express delivers a more seamless approach, and even more people can benefit from our affordable, high-quality services.”
National Express, the UK’s largest coach operator, promises passenger free wi-fi, leather reclining seats, USB charging sockets and a 20kg luggage allowance.

3 really is a crowd in the scheduled coach market. Had a check on national express website for London to Aberdeen tomorrow, and it did offer through ticket with Citylink, with changes at Glasgow or Edinburgh.

 

[Surreyman]

I note that National Express have applied for an operators licence for Holdenhurst Road in Bournemouth for 50 vehicles.
Lucketts (wholly owned by N.E) who use the site for N.E coaches, already have an operators licence for 100.
Any idea why?

 

[Parebunks]

There seem to be some changes from 17th April, items I've found on bustimes.org include:
- 160 (Bournemouth-Birmingham via Oxford) increased to 3 trips daily
- 161 (Bournemouth-Birmingham via Cheltenham) withdrawn
- 210 (Wolverhampton-Gatwick) no longer stopping in Oxford, now 12 trips direct from Heathrow and Gatwick to Birmingham with 6 extending to Wolverhampton
This takes Oxford down to 3 coaches northbound daily (excepting the 423 which leaves at around 1 in the morning) - ridiculous given that many trips I've been on both with NX and Megabus have been nearly full, and under a year ago Oxford-Birmingham was judged to be able to support ~15 coaches daily between both companies. Perhaps an opening for flixbus?

 

[Titfield]

There seem to be some changes from 17th April, items I've found on bustimes.org include:
- 160 (Bournemouth-Birmingham via Oxford) increased to 3 trips daily
- 161 (Bournemouth-Birmingham via Cheltenham) withdrawn
- 210 (Wolverhampton-Gatwick) no longer stopping in Oxford, now 12 trips direct from Heathrow and Gatwick to Birmingham with 6 extending to Wolverhampton
This takes Oxford down to 3 coaches northbound daily (excepting the 423 which leaves at around 1 in the morning) - ridiculous given that many trips I've been on both with NX and Megabus have been nearly full, and under a year ago Oxford-Birmingham was judged to be able to support ~15 coaches daily between both companies. Perhaps an opening for flixbus?

Given the overcrowding on Cross Country trains between Reading and Birmingham (via oxford) I would say there is a big opportunity.

 

[markymark2000]

- 210 (Wolverhampton-Gatwick) no longer stopping in Oxford, now 12 trips direct from Heathrow and Gatwick to Birmingham with 6 extending to Wolverhampton

I'm guessing that this will have been done to compete with Flixbus as they are starting a new '900' Birmingham - Heathrow CBS - Heathrow T5 - Gatwick North - Gatwick South service in a few days (and then due to increase to 10 trips per day from early April).

Given the overcrowding on Cross Country trains between Reading and Birmingham (via oxford) I would say there is a big opportunity.

Oxford is a difficult one because it's such a huge time penalty to serve with silly amounts of congestion too. Purely doing a straight comparison, on the 210 between Birmingham Airport and Heathrow CBS. If the bus doesn't serve Oxford, it gets 2 hours, if it runs via Oxford, it gets 2h 55. 55 minutes time penalty to serve Oxford is a lot, and you need to have a lot of people travelling to/from Oxford to make that diversion viable. I suspect given the congestion, any route which diverts via Oxford will have a similarly high time penalty.

And it's a shame because Oxford has great potential for coaches in my opinion because of the amount of students. The issue is finding the right route. London you have no chance because of Oxford Tube. Heathrow and Gatwick you will struggle because of Oxford Airline. Where else do that many people want to go to, from Oxford?
It's no good just providing links to Birmingham 'because the trains are busy on that section', if people are just using the trains to Birmingham to then connect to the rest of the rail network. People are happy (or at least happier) connecting between trains, they don't like connecting between coaches as much.

 

[nick291]

I'm guessing that this will have been done to compete with Flixbus as they are starting a new '900' Birmingham - Heathrow CBS - Heathrow T5 - Gatwick North - Gatwick South service in a few days (and then due to increase to 10 trips per day from early April).



Oxford is a difficult one because it's such a huge time penalty to serve with silly amounts of congestion too. Purely doing a straight comparison, on the 210 between Birmingham Airport and Heathrow CBS. If the bus doesn't serve Oxford, it gets 2 hours, if it runs via Oxford, it gets 2h 55. 55 minutes time penalty to serve Oxford is a lot, and you need to have a lot of people travelling to/from Oxford to make that diversion viable. I suspect given the congestion, any route which diverts via Oxford will have a similarly high time penalty.

And it's a shame because Oxford has great potential for coaches in my opinion because of the amount of students. The issue is finding the right route. London you have no chance because of Oxford Tube. Heathrow and Gatwick you will struggle because of Oxford Airline. Where else do that many people want to go to, from Oxford?
It's no good just providing links to Birmingham 'because the trains are busy on that section', if people are just using the trains to Birmingham to then connect to the rest of the rail network. People are happy (or at least happier) connecting between trains, they don't like connecting between coaches as much.

Could the solution for Oxford be having an NX stop at Thornhill Park and Ride? I suppose the issue would then be Oxford Tube/OBC's airline services serving the same corridor between Victoria/Heathrow/Gatwick, as you mentioned.

 

[Parebunks]

Oxford is a difficult one because it's such a huge time penalty to serve with silly amounts of congestion too. Purely doing a straight comparison, on the 210 between Birmingham Airport and Heathrow CBS. If the bus doesn't serve Oxford, it gets 2 hours, if it runs via Oxford, it gets 2h 55. 55 minutes time penalty to serve Oxford is a lot, and you need to have a lot of people travelling to/from Oxford to make that diversion viable. I suspect given the congestion, any route which diverts via Oxford will have a similarly high time penalty.

And it's a shame because Oxford has great potential for coaches in my opinion because of the amount of students. The issue is finding the right route. London you have no chance because of Oxford Tube. Heathrow and Gatwick you will struggle because of Oxford Airline. Where else do that many people want to go to, from Oxford?
It's no good just providing links to Birmingham 'because the trains are busy on that section', if people are just using the trains to Birmingham to then connect to the rest of the rail network. People are happy (or at least happier) connecting between trains, they don't like connecting between coaches as much.

Yes, it is quite tricky - I wonder whether heading to Reading or Swindon could work? Less time penalty from Birmingham even if the Oxford market is probably mostly taken by the train.

Could the solution for Oxford be having an NX stop at Thornhill Park and Ride? I suppose the issue would then be Oxford Tube/OBC's airline services serving the same corridor between Victoria/Heathrow/Gatwick, as you mentioned.

This could be another solution - or even a purpose-built coachway at J8 or J9 of the M40. The 400 bus now goes to the Wheatley motorway services, would barely take 10 minutes to divert in there. Of course does run into the issue with out-of-town stations that it can be less attractive for students etc who might struggle to get there.

 

[route101]

There seem to be some changes from 17th April, items I've found on bustimes.org include:
- 160 (Bournemouth-Birmingham via Oxford) increased to 3 trips daily
- 161 (Bournemouth-Birmingham via Cheltenham) withdrawn
- 210 (Wolverhampton-Gatwick) no longer stopping in Oxford, now 12 trips direct from Heathrow and Gatwick to Birmingham with 6 extending to Wolverhampton
This takes Oxford down to 3 coaches northbound daily (excepting the 423 which leaves at around 1 in the morning) - ridiculous given that many trips I've been on both with NX and Megabus have been nearly full, and under a year ago Oxford-Birmingham was judged to be able to support ~15 coaches daily between both companies. Perhaps an opening for flixbus?

The 161 did not last long. Seems to be any new routes don't seem to work.

I guess Oxford can be served by the Air service . A second 590 service calling at Oxford, would that work?

I used the 595 service at the weekend. This service is now the sole overnight service from London to Glasgow on NX. The service is scheduled to call at Heathrow, Milton Keynes and Glasgow. For some reason we let some people off in Carlisle and a lady was connecting to Edinburgh at Glasgow. I wonder if these people missed the earlier 594 Edinburgh service and were offered to travel on the 595.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Suspect that is probably the case. But I don't suppose the drivers on there were too happy about having to go into Carlisle, costs. You a good 30 minutes even at night, did they make it up again to arrive in Glasgow on time?

 

[route101]

Suspect that is probably the case. But I don't suppose the drivers on there were too happy about having to go into Carlisle, costs. You a good 30 minutes even at night, did they make it up again to arrive in Glasgow on time?

I am sure we arrived into Glasgow ten minutes ahead of schedule. We only had 15 minute break at Charnock Richard services. Service is now double manned.

 

[Parebunks]

The 161 did not last long. Seems to be any new routes don't seem to work.

It was quite an odd route, not really many established flows and unattractive for end-to-end trips. As I said above, wonder if Swindon-Birmingham via Oxford might work better, could combine with Bristol-Oxford flows currently largely ignored by coach and train - another one Megabus briefly did but never gave the opportunity to develop.

I guess Oxford can be served by the Air service . A second 590 service calling at Oxford, would that work?

Perhaps - there certainly seems to be a lot of cross-Birmingham demand from Oxford, but roughly evenly split between Manchester and Sheffield/Leeds. NX are rather shooting themselves in the foot by not running anything across Birmingham - @markymark2000 is right that people don't like connecting coaches, but Bristol/Oxford to the North are meaningfully large markets as Flixbus seem to be discovering.

I am sure we arrived into Glasgow ten minutes ahead of schedule. We only had 15 minute break at Charnock Richard services. Service is now double manned.

There always seems to be a lot of slack in the overnight times, last time I was coming back from Edinburgh we were only 20 minutes late into Milton Keynes despite having left 90 (!) minutes late, and that was with a decent-length service break.

 

[nick291]

It was quite an odd route, not really many established flows and unattractive for end-to-end trips. As I said above, wonder if Swindon-Birmingham via Oxford might work better, could combine with Bristol-Oxford flows currently largely ignored by coach and train - another one Megabus briefly did but never gave the opportunity to develop.

Bristol-Oxford is a criminally underserved corridor by coach. NatEx 302, Megabus M34 and another that Oxford Bus Company partnered with back in 2018 are the only direct ones I can think of in recent memory. GWR has a Saturday only direct service that started recently.

 

[route101]

It was quite an odd route, not really many established flows and unattractive for end-to-end trips. As I said above, wonder if Swindon-Birmingham via Oxford might work better, could combine with Bristol-Oxford flows currently largely ignored by coach and train - another one Megabus briefly did but never gave the opportunity to develop.

Perhaps - there certainly seems to be a lot of cross-Birmingham demand from Oxford, but roughly evenly split between Manchester and Sheffield/Leeds. NX are rather shooting themselves in the foot by not running anything across Birmingham - @markymark2000 is right that people don't like connecting coaches, but Bristol/Oxford to the North are meaningfully large markets as Flixbus seem to be discovering.

There always seems to be a lot of slack in the overnight times, last time I was coming back from Edinburgh we were only 20 minutes late into Milton Keynes despite having left 90 (!) minutes late, and that was with a decent-length service break.

I recall some services starting at Swindon. I remember a Swindon to Newcastle service.

Yes, overnight services have to account for diversions.

 

[nick291]

I recall some services starting at Swindon. I remember a Swindon to Newcastle service.

Yes, overnight services have to account for diversions.

The old 332 service ran by Go North East. Swindon only now gets the 401/444 and event/festival coaches NatEx put on.

 

[JonathanH]

Bristol-Oxford is a criminally underserved corridor by coach. NatEx 302, Megabus M34 and another that Oxford Bus Company partnered with back in 2018 are the only direct ones I can think of in recent memory. GWR has a Saturday only direct service that started recently.

Coaches have to run commercially. If a route is "criminally underserved", it really does suggest that there isn't any demand. Realistically, coaches are now mainly about links to London, and airports from major conurbations, serving anywhere on the way that can be served without too much diversion.

 

[TravelDream]

Coaches have to run commercially. If a route is "criminally underserved", it really does suggest that there isn't any demand. Realistically, coaches are now mainly about links to London, and airports from major conurbations, serving anywhere on the way that can be served without too much diversion.

This.
It's very difficult to make money on coaches that stop at every village halt (as it were) and also difficult for those which operate to different regional centres.

Airport services have proven very profitable for NX. They are relatively expensive and difficult to operate, but can command premium fares.
London has the demand to fill buses up.

Otherwise, many regional routes do struggle to remain profitable. Look at routes like Cardiff to Birmingham which has three to four buses a day or Newcastle to Birmingham which has up to six a day despite being NX's hub.

 

[Parebunks]

Coaches have to run commercially. If a route is "criminally underserved", it really does suggest that there isn't any demand. Realistically, coaches are now mainly about links to London, and airports from major conurbations, serving anywhere on the way that can be served without too much diversion.

The issue is that NX haven't really tested demand at all, it's just been pared back to that core London/airport network and sending everything else via Birmingham. There's no way to know if something like Bristol-Oxford would be successful in the post-Covid landscape without trying it, but innovation does seem to be something of an anathema for NX. Megabus were a bit better at trying things, but too sensitive to minor ups and downs - there were some very solid, well-used routes in 2022/23 that could have done well if they'd stuck with them for longer than a few months.

Otherwise, many regional routes do struggle to remain profitable. Look at routes like Cardiff to Birmingham which has three to four buses a day or Newcastle to Birmingham which has up to six a day despite being NX's hub.

The issue there again is terminating everything in Birmingham when a lot of the regional demand is across it. Linking up and running, say, Cardiff to Newcastle, could well be able to sustain a higher frequency than keeping them separate, perhaps even more if the destinations were switched up a bit. From my experience there were a lot of people travelling across Birmingham on, e.g., the Megabus M34, but they don't seem to have switched to NX once a change was required.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think it's probably time for a fairly major rethink of the whole National Express root network. To be honest. Some of the core stuff such as London to the West country and London to Scotland works fine and doesn't really need playing with, it's taken years and years but we finally have fast overnight services from London to Scotland and now they probably just need to speed up the trips from the capital to the likes of Devon and Cornwall by a couple of hours to really compete on a serious level. As for the rest of it, rip it all up and start again

 

[henryb]

I think it's probably time for a fairly major rethink of the whole National Express root network. To be honest. Some of the core stuff such as London to the West country and London to Scotland works fine and doesn't really need playing with, it's taken years and years but we finally have fast overnight services from London to Scotland and now they probably just need to speed up the trips from the capital to the likes of Devon and Cornwall by a couple of hours to really compete on a serious level. As for the rest of it, rip it all up and start again

The West Country stuff would run a lot better if Parks didn’t run it..

 

[Martin1988]

During Summer 2015 NX ran a Bristol to Oxford service (I think numbered 301) which ran via Bath, Chippenham and Swindon and which enabled a day return to Oxford. Sadly it only lasted about 6 months. The time I used it the usage definitely wasn't brilliant but always wondered if NX allowed enough time for usage to pick up.