National Express Coaches Discussion

[route101]

Do you know if all National Express services from Manchester stop at the services? I have always avoid getting the coach to London because I worry the toilet won't work and had a nightmare on a Megabus once with no working toilet and the driver refused to let us off for a toilet break during a driver change. I got really annoyed with him and he agreed to let us off, to massive cheers from all the other passengers on the bus.

That said I have got the coach from Manchester to Spain several times, but that company have a policy of stopping every three hours for toilet breaks (well at least they did before the B word )

I have seen the Megabus M1X service stop at Norton Cane services.

Scotland - Birmingham services such as the 182 stop at Tebay.

I am a long time reader of this forum but have only just registered. Regarding some of the recent topics discussed on here I would like to add and share some of my experiences.
I have used the 550 a few times in the past and a few years ago (2015 I think) and from memory there used to be one service per day in each direction that didn't go via Birmingham and was scheduled to use the M6 toll instead. From memory this was an early morning (5am ish) southbound departure and an evening northbound (6pm ish) northbound departure, but I believe all the other 550 services did go via Digbeth. I do recall travelling to Liverpool one night and due to a scheduled M6 overnight closure near Stafford the driver advised us that he would be driving non-stop to Stoke-on-Trent/Hanley to get past the affected section before the closure took place. We did however have a few extra minutes at Hanley for us passengers to stretch our legs and/or have a smoke.
The only other time where I have been on a sevice where there has been a scheduled break was on the old 334 service between Bournemouth and Birmingham which stopped at Chieveley. Having a what routes run between these two places now, there seems to be quirk in the timetable on the 160 service, where there are two services per day in each direction yet only one in each direction has a scheduled service station break.
I also recall making an unscheduled stop on a service between Coventry and London Victoria at what I think was Toddington services where the driver announced that no-one should get off and the only reason he was stopping was that he needed the toilet, he then proceeded to walk up the aisle and use the onboard loo rather than those in the service station.

Regarding the need for services to divert and drivers getting lost the last time I used a National Express service, which was the 205 service to Heathrow back in June there was a scheduled closure of the M3 near Basingstoke. However, the driver advised us of this and that he would need to divert on to the A33 and M4. On the return journey a week later the traffic was horrendous and in between Southampton and Bournemouth, we diverted off the M27/A31. I assume that either the driver had a satnav with real time traffic or the 2nd driver in the crew seat had access to Google maps, as there was no official road closure.
Also about 4 years back I boarded the old 333 at Wolverhampton travelling to Weymouth and when I boarded I was told by the driver that she didn't know the way but she would get me there. When arriving into Bristol she overshot the entrance to the bus station and had to reverse a few yards back to make the turn. Then after that she nearly missed the turn where the A37 meets the A39, in Yeovil she had to ask passengers what way to go to reach the bus station and on exiting she also asked a taxi driver for directions, and when in Weymouth she took a wrong turn, which was when I decided to direct her to the correct stop. To be fair to her this wasn't long after Parks had took over the route from Traveller's Choice, but she should never have been driving the route on her own, but from experience that is how Parks seem to operate and don't care about their employees.

Yes the 160 makes a 45 minute stop Northbound. I suspect that is a driver hours break. I stopped at Chieveley services a few months ago on a 509 service to Swansea, for a driver changeover.

I suppose gone are the days when the NX coaches used to stop especially the over night ones like the 590/591/592 for the drivers to have food and the passengers to smoke, I remember the first time I did the Megabus equivalent, the driver just stopped on a slip road to change drivers, no chance of anyone slipping out for a cigarette

The overnight and day Scottish services still stop at the services. I recall they would usually take a 45 minute break but now they do 30 minute and 15 minute.

 

[markymark2000]

I stopped at Chieveley services a few months ago on a 509 service to Swansea, for a driver changeover.

That will be the trip operated by Newbury and District (Reading Buses).

 

[route101]

All of the 540s from Manchester to London are booked to stop at Norton Cannes. Manchester to London 422/424 (the overnight runs) have their scheduled rest break at Birmingham Digbeth Coach Station. The 181/182 from Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh have a scheduled stop at Tebay. I don't believe that any other services from Manchester have scheduled service station stops. NatEx is meant to be good at mandating toilet stops though if the coach toilet isn't working.


Best way to see if there is a break en route is to use the timetables pages: https://timetables.nationalexpress.com/. If you search for the route number, it will then give you all of the arrival and departure times, if it's a services it will name the services or sometimes it's just a longer than usual stop at Birmingham Digbeth Coach Station.

The service stops shown on the timetable aren't always accurate though. The 586 I took stopped at Durham and Woodall services, the timetable says Knutsford Services.

 

[Titfield]

I have seen the Megabus M1X service stop at Norton Cane services.

Scotland - Birmingham services such as the 182 stop at Tebay.


Yes the 160 makes a 45 minute stop Northbound. I suspect that is a driver hours break. I stopped at Chieveley services a few months ago on a 509 service to Swansea, for a driver changeover.


The overnight and day Scottish services still stop at the services. I recall they would usually take a 45 minute break but now they do 30 minute and 15 minute.

Not knowing the whole duty (and its implications) but a split break should be 15 minutes and then 30 minutes (in that order) to be drivers hours compliant.

 

[route101]

Not knowing the whole duty (and its implications) but a split break should be 15 minutes and then 30 minutes (in that order) to be drivers hours compliant.

On the southbound 586 last Friday, it was 30 minutes at Durham and 15 at Woodall. On the timetable it shows 30 minutes at Knutsford. I overheard one of the drivers and he said after arrival into London they do a 400 service to Birmingham. Surely all 400s can be covered more locally.

 

[philthetube]

Please no one take this as me being rude, I am just wanting to understand. I ask how many of the requests which go through to the assisted travel team actually need to go to them? NatEx vehicles are set up ready for wheelchairs straight away. All buses should have the necessary equipment anyway because that's a PSVAR requirement. Most accessibility aids should fit under the bus with ease. The only issues that I could ever foresee are some stops not being accessible (but that should be mentioned anyway ahead of booking). Turn up and go is literally the law now, no assistance has to be pre booked and if the railways are anything to go by, prebooking doesn't exactly do much except make people aware which kind of makes a mockery of turn up and go if you have to make people aware beforehand. I know that some people would have needs which aren't as easily catered for and so I am not canvassing to rid the team or anything like that, I am more curious as to why they get so many enquiries when most assisted travel comes under the existing law. You don't drop Tesco an email before you go in for your weekly shop with your wheelchair, you just turn up and go shopping. No one alerts local bus operators to them needing a wheelchair space, they just turn up and go. Why is the attitude so different still for intercity coaches?

It may help but given a wheelchair user can just turn up and go as long as the wheelchair space is available (including moving seats if needed), that doesn't really work as a wheelchair user can turn up on the day, buy a ticket with the driver and as long as the chair complies with the rules, they would pretty much have to take the passenger.

If you contact assisted travel they will reserve the wheelchair space for you. If not and someone else also needs it you may be unlucky.

Even if turning up at the start of the journey there are no guarantees; if the space is reserved further up the road then the driver should refuse travel.

 

[asb]

On the southbound 586 last Friday, it was 30 minutes at Durham and 15 at Woodall. On the timetable it shows 30 minutes at Knutsford. I overheard one of the drivers and he said after arrival into London they do a 400 service to Birmingham. Surely all 400s can be covered more locally.

It may well be more efficient to pair up a long trip with a shorter one

 

[Eyersey468]

It may well be more efficient to pair up a long trip with a shorter one

Pre Covid we used to run coaches to London which then went on to do another journey

 

[Swanny200]

I remember someone telling me that they did triangles, so for example an Edinburgh to London then London to Birmingham and then Birmingham to Edinburgh or something of that sort

 

[route101]

It may well be more efficient to pair up a long trip with a shorter one

I see, perhaps they don't want the coach sitting in London for a day. I suppose it could work the next northbound 590 or 591 with a different set of drivers. I do think a driver doing a 400 after a night service from Edinburgh is a very long duty.

 

[Mwanesh]

On the southbound 586 last Friday, it was 30 minutes at Durham and 15 at Woodall. On the timetable it shows 30 minutes at Knutsford. I overheard one of the drivers and he said after arrival into London they do a 400 service to Birmingham. Surely all 400s can be covered more locally.

National Express do the 400 in house through Woods coaches who now run the Aston depot. Clarkes do some runs and another one Travelstar European. I have seen a Selwyns Coach on the 400

 

[MasterSpenny]

Abuse victims now get free travel on National Express Coach Services, through links with Women’s Aid (a charity).

National Express links with charity on free travel for abuse victims

National Express has partnered with the charity Women's Aid to provide survivors of abuse with free coach travel across the UK.

www.route-one.net

National Express links with charity on free travel for abuse victims​

National Express has partnered with the charity Women’s Aid to provide survivors of abuse with free coach travel across the UK.
The Road to Refuge scheme enables women, men and children who are escaping domestic abuse to reach a confirmed place of refuge arranged by a designated body.
National Express points out that those fleeing abuse often have to travel long distances away from the perpetrator and may not have access to sufficient funds, and that the initiative could help remove these barriers.
The partners in the scheme hope to emulate the success of the Women’s Aid’s Rail to Refuge programme, which National Express initially supported and under which 7,432 individuals, including 2,146 children, have been helped to safety in similar fashion via the rail network.
Farah Nazeer, Chief Executive of Women’s Aid, says: “Domestic abuse isolates survivors from their finances, making it incredibly difficult to escape to safety. We are delighted to be working with National Express on the Road to Refuge scheme, removing the financial barrier to fleeing abuse and helping survivors access safe refuge at no cost to them.
“It is a vital scheme for survivors who would otherwise be trapped and at a huge increased risk of further abuse. The Road to Refuge scheme will be truly lifesaving, giving survivors the opportunity to travel to vital, specialist support for free.”
Charlotte Masters, Customer Experience Director at National Express, adds: “We are proud to partner with Women’s Aid on the Road to Refuge scheme, offering survivors free travel to a safe place on our extensive coach network across the country.
“Our aim is to make the process of travelling as stress free as possible for survivors, taking away the financial barrier to escaping abuse and helping them reach their destination for help and support, safely.
“Survivors can now access free coach travel in an emergency, when fleeing to refuge.”
Under the scheme, a victim of abuse would seek support from domestic abuse service which is a member of Women’s Aid Federation of England, Imkaan, Scottish Women’s Aid or Welsh Women’s Aid and, if appropriate, would be referred to a refuge, which would then book a free coach or train ticket.

 

[markymark2000]

National Express do the 400 in house through Woods coaches who now run the Aston depot. Clarkes do some runs and another one Travelstar European. I have seen a Selwyns Coach on the 400

Tracking suggests that the 08:00 from Victoria and 18:15 from Digbeth are both run by Bruces.

I do think a driver doing a 400 after a night service from Edinburgh is a very long duty.

As long as they remain double manning all shift, they can do 21 hours on duty.

Surely all 400s can be covered more locally.

Theres a few trips ran by strange operators. Some have explanation, some don't.

Chalfonts, most of their network goes nowhere near their depots. I know they have the Southall depot but some of the routes which are run from Northampton, the routes don't stop in Northampton officially, they just pull off the motorway to change drivers. Very strange to see how little they have route which run close but stop nowhere near the depot.
Go North East does the 15:00 London to Leeds, the bus overnights in Leeds then runs 06:00 561 from Leeds to London
Llew Jones running a round trip on the 540.
Selwyns run a late night A1 from London to Milton Keynes and then run a 450 back in service to London. What a lot of people don't know though is that Selwyns has a driver depot at Milton Keynes, I believe it is the Coachway, and therefore this isn't as strange as it may seem originally.

 

[Simon75]

Sorry to sound thick
What's the difference between a driver depot and depot?

 

[winston270twm]

National Express do the 400 in house through Woods coaches who now run the Aston depot. Clarkes do some runs and another one Travelstar European. I have seen a Selwyns Coach on the 400

As of Monday 9th Oct, Clarkes no longer operate any vehicles on National Express diagrams, all Clarkes workings on the 025, 400 & 450 have moved to National Express Wandsworth depot. I suspect that Clarkes may be one of the two National Express Transport Solutions depots that are being closed down, as announced in this mornings Mobico Group Third Quarter Trading update.

 

[markymark2000]

Sorry to sound thick
What's the difference between a driver depot and depot?

A driver depot is basically just for drivers. No vehicles are stored or maintained there. Drivers sign on/off there and probably have a driver's room. A proper drivers depot would have ops staff there to deal with on the day issues with reliability etc. (I don't know if in Selwyn's case they have ops staff at Milton Keynes or whether everyone just reports to one of their other depots who sort it)

A normal depot would be on the operators license and vehicles get stored/maintained there.

 

[Swanny200]

As of Monday 9th Oct, Clarkes no longer operate any vehicles on National Express diagrams, all Clarkes workings on the 025, 400 & 450 have moved to National Express Wandsworth depot. I suspect that Clarkes may be one of the two National Express Transport Solutions depots that are being closed down, as announced in this mornings Mobico Group Third Quarter Trading update.

I have wondered about the whole NETS system, I grew up with Kings Ferry on my doorstep, is it an arms length agreement that they are part of the group or have NX bought every one of these operators and if so is the closing down of depot's etc meaning that they will eventually all end up as one company and all in the same livery?

 

[winston270twm]

I have wondered about the whole NETS system, I grew up with Kings Ferry on my doorstep, is it an arms length agreement that they are part of the group or have NX bought every one of these operators and if so is the closing down of depot's etc meaning that they will eventually all end up as one company and all in the same livery?

No idea, I was expecting all of the NETS coach companies to adopt the NETS livery & potentially just retain local fleetnames to make it easier to transfer coaches around the group of companies, however, repaints currently seem to have halted.
Morton's have had a batch of 5 new E400MMC's delivered in June, these have been delivered in Morton's green livery & fleetnames
Kings Ferry have 72 & 23 plate Tourismo's which all just overall white some with Fleetnames, some without. Lucketts had Tourismo's some of which are allover white still without fleetnames.
There's numerous liveried coaches with the wrong fleetnames working from all different depots, plus there's a number of coaches still carrying up to 3 different fleetnumbers, the whole thing seems to be one big mess including the NETS fleet numbering.

 

[cnjb8]

NETS depots closing are Gillingham and Sydenham according to Route One (my quote function doesn't seem to be working)

 

[MasterSpenny]

NETS depots closing are Gillingham and Sydenham according to Route One (my quote function doesn't seem to be working)

The article

National Express Transport Solutions to close Gillingham, Sydenham - routeone

National Express Transport Solutions is to close depots at Sydenham in London and Gillingham in Kent, it has confirmed.

www.route-one.net

National Express Transport Solutions to close Gillingham, Sydenham​

National Express Transport Solutions (NETS) is to close the Clarkes of London depot at Sydenham in London and its base in Gillingham that came with purchase of The Kings Ferry, although no changes to those two respective brands are proposed “at present,” and work is expected to be moved to spare capacity elsewhere, parent Mobico Group has confirmed.

The news comes after Mobico said in a trading update for Q3 issued early on 12 October that underlying profitability of NETS is “currently below the levels required to meet our return threshold.” It noted that two of five key NETS depots were to close but did not name them. The remaining NETS business will undergo a continued review of its return potential, Mobico adds.

In a brief statement, a spokesperson for National Express says: “We continually review the profitability of our portfolio to ensure that we are set up to offer the very best products at the best prices in the market to our customers.

“To ensure that we can operate efficiently, we have made the difficult decision to close our depots in Sydenham and Gillingham. We will be entering a consultation period with colleagues and we will do all we can to support them through this process.

“We will continue to operate corporate and private hire work from our strong and efficient network of depots across the UK.”

Closure of the two depots comes after a period of change in National Express’s UK business. While the scheduled white coach operation is performing well and has seen a further increase in revenues in Q3, the Mobico subsidiary recently parted company with both UK and Germany CEO Tom Stables and National Express West Midlands (NXWM) Managing Director David Bradford.

During July, National Express also announced an end to its Touromo brand, which was introduced in January to capture day trips and holidays operated by NETS companies. Following news of Mr Bradford and Mr Stables’ departures, Alex Jensen was appointed CEO.

In its Q3 trading update, Mobico says that Ms Jensen has been involved in “a rapid assessment” of the National Express division. Identified as “clear areas for improvement” are better commercial scrutiny and ambition; tighter cost control and ownership of cost reduction initiatives; and improved allocation of capital and resources.

Mobico adds that a path to improved profitability has been hampered by higher costs, although a productivity and cost reduction programme is on track to deliver up to £30 million of annualised savings. Mobico is also preparing to dispose of its large school bus business in North America. Commencement of the sale process is expected “in early 2024.”

In the UK, National Express saw a 13% year-on-year revenue growth in Q3 on 2022’s figure. NXWM is currently seeing commercial bus patronage at 97% of 2019 levels.

 

[bussnapperwm]

No idea, I was expecting all of the NETS coach companies to adopt the NETS livery & potentially just retain local fleetnames to make it easier to transfer coaches around the group of companies, however, repaints currently seem to have halted.
Morton's have had a batch of 5 new E400MMC's delivered in June, these have been delivered in Morton's green livery & fleetnames
Kings Ferry have 72 & 23 plate Tourismo's which all just overall white some with Fleetnames, some without. Lucketts had Tourismo's some of which are allover white still without fleetnames.
There's numerous liveried coaches with the wrong fleetnames working from all different depots, plus there's a number of coaches still carrying up to 3 different fleetnumbers, the whole thing seems to be one big mess including the NETS fleet numbering.

And then theres some coaches which are in the NETS fleet number system and some in the West Midlands system, and also some in a completely different sequence (isn't the Ring and Ride/Accessible Travel/WM Bus on Demand nowadays under NETS as well?)

 

[Butts]

Is the 210 Service starting at Heathrow Terminal 5 always late arriving into Birmingham?

The reason I ask is that it was fine leaving T5 but took an eternity to load all the suitcases at the Central Bus Station for T2/3 joiners.

We ended up leaving half an hour late and didn't make up any time en-route.

It would seem they don't factor baggage handling into the timetable, or at least for this journey not on the scale required.

 

[j_walker1804]

That will be the trip operated by Newbury and District (Reading Buses).

Now back with owned ops at Wandsworth…for now

 

[Parebunks]

https://bustimes.org/licences/PD0000738 - several routes seem to have been reregistered as local buses from the start of December, my understanding being that all previous registrations were cancelled during COVID. Does anyone know if there's any timetable/route changes coming around that time, or if this is just to allow local tickets to be sold again (or not even that, but I can't think of any other reason to)?

 

[winston270twm]

https://bustimes.org/licences/PD0000738 - several routes seem to have been reregistered as local buses from the start of December, my understanding being that all previous registrations were cancelled during COVID. Does anyone know if there's any timetable/route changes coming around that time, or if this is just to allow local tickets to be sold again (or not even that, but I can't think of any other reason to)?

There's new route 788 Heathrow T5 - Peterborough which starts 20th October:

788 - Peterborough - Heathrow Airport (T5)

National Express

bustimes.org

 

[Welshman]

Theres a few trips ran by strange operators. Some have explanation, some don't.


Llew Jones running a round trip on the 540.

The feeder for this is the 0925 Service 175 Llandudno-Manchester, and the 1520 return takes the bus back to depot at Llanrwst.

 

[markymark2000]

The feeder for this is the 0925 Service 175 Llandudno-Manchester, and the 1520 return takes the bus back to depot at Llanrwst.

Without another trip to link it on to, the 175 wouldn't exist as it doesn't make money except Liverpool-Manchester so it's still an odd trip for them to run.

 

[gray1404]

Without another trip to link it on to, the 175 wouldn't exist as it doesn't make money except Liverpool-Manchester so it's still an odd trip for them to run.

The coach company that runs the 175 is based in North Wales and are contracted to run one trip in each direction daily on the 540. So the coach does the follows:
Depot - Llandudno
Llandudno - Liverpool - Manchester 175
Manchester - London 540
Then the following day it does the reserve of the above to get it back to the depot.

So when that is taken into account the 175 does make sense. The Manchester to Liverpool (in both directions) is regularly nearly at capacity and that's with a 170 running not far in front of behind it.

So it's just the Liverpool to Llandudno section I shall comment on now:
1. The coach would be making the journey anyway with a driver to get into position to rub the 540 from Manchester or get back to the depot so the 175 therefore might as well run.

2. There are always at least a few or more passengers on this service to/from Wales and around Christmas, New Year and Easter it can actually be very busy.

3. I've noticed a lot of the customers boarding the 175 in North Wales are connecting to other destinations on the NX network. So if not for the 175 they may not be travelling with NX at all as it won't be an option.

I am therefore not convinced that it doesn't make any money.

 

[Welshman]

, insteaThe coach company that runs the 175 is based in North Wales and are contracted to run one trip in each direction daily on the 540. So the coach does the follows:
Depot - Llandudno
Llandudno - Liverpool - Manchester 175
Manchester - London 540
Then the following day it does the reserve of the above to get it back to the depot.

So when that is taken into account the 175 does make sense. The Manchester to Liverpool (in both directions) is regularly nearly at capacity and that's with a 170 running not far in front of behind it.

So it's just the Liverpool to Llandudno section I shall comment on now:
1. The coach would be making the journey anyway with a driver to get into position to rub the 540 from Manchester or get back to the depot so the 175 therefore might as well run.

2. There are always at least a few or more passengers on this service to/from Wales and around Christmas, New Year and Easter it can actually be very busy.

3. I've noticed a lot of the customers boarding the 175 in North Wales are connecting to other destinations on the NX network. So if not for the 175 they may not be travelling with NX at all as it won't be an option.

I am therefore not convinced that it doesn't make any money.

But is there any reason why the 175 runs non-stop Abergele- Birkenhead via the A55 instead of going via the Coast Rd as former services have done.
It now omits places like Rhyl, Prestatyn and Flint, along with all the extra busines the various holiday camps along that way could be providing.

 

[markymark2000]

The coach company that runs the 175 is based in North Wales and are contracted to run one trip in each direction daily on the 540. So the coach does the follows:
Depot - Llandudno
Llandudno - Liverpool - Manchester 175
Manchester - London 540
Then the following day it does the reserve of the above to get it back to the depot.

So when that is taken into account the 175 does make sense. The Manchester to Liverpool (in both directions) is regularly nearly at capacity and that's with a 170 running not far in front of behind it.

I know what it does, I have already stated it above.
From Liverpool to Manchester, the 175 leaves 30 mins behind a 171 but gets into Manchester at the same time and it's often cheaper. Why would you get the 170/171 unless you had to?
From Manchester to Liverpool, the 175 runs ahead of the 171. It's 30 minutes quicker and often cheaper. Again, if making this journey, the 175 is a no brainer so it's likely to get used between Manchester and Liverpool.

So it's just the Liverpool to Llandudno section I shall comment on now:
1. The coach would be making the journey anyway with a driver to get into position to rub the 540 from Manchester or get back to the depot so the 175 therefore might as well run.

2. There are always at least a few or more passengers on this service to/from Wales and around Christmas, New Year and Easter it can actually be very busy.

3. I've noticed a lot of the customers boarding the 175 in North Wales are connecting to other destinations on the NX network. So if not for the 175 they may not be travelling with NX at all as it won't be an option.

I am therefore not convinced that it doesn't make any money.

Patronage on the 175 is extremely low, a lot of trips taking low figures between Llandudno and Liverpool. As you say, it is a placement trip and it is well known with Llew Jones and known amongst enthusiasts in North Wales that without the 540 (or formerly the 561) to London, the 175 simply wouldn't exist. I've seen numerous loading sheets too which show how dead the 175 is in North Wales.

But is there any reason why the 175 runs non-stop Abergele- Birkenhead via the A55 instead of going via the Coast Rd as former services have done.
It now omits places like Rhyl, Prestatyn and Flint, along with all the extra busines the various holiday camps along that way could be providing.

Time. Because of the rules on driving hours, a driver can only drive for a maximum of 10 hours per day and based off the current service, 1 single driver does Llanwrst to Heston Services and that takes up a full day of driving hours. If the bus was to divert along the coast, it would need a second driver somewhere along the line and to be fair, the Coast road was never that busy and the service acted more like a local bus with it's 10-15 odd stops just between Talacre and Abergele.

08:45 Depot - Manchester 12:30 (3h45 drive)
14:00 Manchester - Norton Cannes 15:45 (1h45 drive)
16:35 Norton Cannes - London Victoria 20:00 (3h25 drive)
20:00 London Victoria - Heston Services 20:40 (40m drive)
This is 9h35 drive. Admittedly this doesn't take into account time when the driver is sat at stationary for longer than a minute (which counts as other work) or loading/unloading (again other work), however this time is just padding in case something goes wrong such as lots of slow moving traffic or diversions.