National Rail website not Showing Sale Prices for TfW

[Envoy]

I see that TfW are having a sale. However, these sale prices don’t appear on all websites - including that of National Rail. They do appear on Trainline website. How can this be as I thought that the price would be fed through to all train retail sites?

 

[mangyiscute]

Assuming this is the sale that you are talking about: https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/savings-and-offers/advance-sale it states that you can only buy sale tickets through their website or app, so you won't see it on NRE.
Why trainline have sale prices, i'm not sure, but i'm sure someone else can explain

 

[Envoy]

Assuming this is the sale that you are talking about: https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/savings-and-offers/advance-sale it states that you can only buy sale tickets through their website or app, so you won't see it on NRE.
Why trainline have sale prices, i'm not sure, but i'm sure someone else can explain

Yes, that is the one to which I am referring. When these lower sale fares were also appearing on Trainline, I thought that they would be on all retail sites. So, I guess that we must always also check TOC websites for special offers.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Assuming this is the sale that you are talking about: https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/savings-and-offers/advance-sale it states that you can only buy sale tickets through their website or app, so you won't see it on NRE.
Why trainline have sale prices, i'm not sure, but i'm sure someone else can explain

The short version is that promotions are available to all retailers unless explicitly barred when they're setup.

And I believe that if a TOC uses Trainline for their website, blocking Trainline from selling the promo will block their own site as well.

 

[yorkie]

This is an anticompetitive practice; it should be available to all retailers.

Unfortunately we are stuck with it until either the ORR does something about it, or there is a class action claim made.

I suspect the latter is more likely than the former. If either of the legal classes currently proceeding through the courts are successful, I would say there is a good chance that this sort of practice could be next. But it's much more likely to happen in the case of permanent 'promotions' than temporary ones. Anyway, we will see what happens...

 

[londonteacher]

This is an anticompetitive practice; it should be available to all retailers.

Unfortunately we are stuck with it until either the ORR does something about it, or there is a class action claim made.

I suspect the latter is more likely than the former. If either of the legal classes currently proceeding through the courts are successful, I would say there is a good chance that this sort of practice could be next. But it's much more likely to happen in the case of permanent 'promotions' than temporary ones. Anyway, we will see what happens...

The simple solution to all of this would be to have one single ticket selling interface that all operators have to use. Along with one app for all operators.

For a customer would also be useful as you would only need to look in one place.

 

[Haywain]

The simple solution to all of this would be to have one single ticket selling interface that all operators have to use. Along with one app for all operators.

For a customer would also be useful as you would only need to look in one place.

What are you thinking of doing about third party retailers?

 

[m00036]

The current variety in interfaces is beneficial to passengers as shopping around does sometimes pay off when it comes to slightly stranger itineraries. As an example, I once wanted a particular advance ticket from Barnstaple to Reading, but it wasn't offered by GWR because the connecting train I wanted at Exeter couldn't be generated; By using a different TOC with a different interface, it found the one I wanted which, while 1 hour slower, was half the price.

 

[OscarH]

And I believe that if a TOC uses Trainline for their website, blocking Trainline from selling the promo will block their own site as well.

I don't think this bit is true, when a retailer is operating a TOC's website they should be using the validiry data for that TOCs license, not the third party retailer data, so they should be able to restrict it to just the TfW whitelabel. (though given trainline blatantly ignore this data in other areas then god knows how it actually works with them)

 

[Doctor Fegg]

This is an anticompetitive practice; it should be available to all retailers.

Unfortunately we are stuck with it until either the ORR does something about it, or there is a class action claim made.

I suspect the latter is more likely than the former. If either of the legal classes currently proceeding through the courts are successful, I would say there is a good chance that this sort of practice could be next. But it's much more likely to happen in the case of permanent 'promotions' than temporary ones. Anyway, we will see what happens...

There's a specific exclusion from impartial retailing for short-term promotional fares, isn't there?

 

[wibble]

The simple solution to all of this would be to have one single ticket selling interface that all operators have to use. Along with one app for all operators.

For a customer would also be useful as you would only need to look in one place.

This wouldn't work as it's also anticompetitive.

 

[Hadders]

The simple solution to all of this would be to have one single ticket selling interface that all operators have to use. Along with one app for all operators.

For a customer would also be useful as you would only need to look in one place.

That would result in many people paying more. One of the advantages of different retailers is the ability to manipulate the system to show slower trains, specify certain TOCs or exclude them, call at a particular station etc. Much of this innovation would be lost if we ended up with one big standard, lowest common denominator ticket retailer.

 

[macflint]

Yes, that is the one to which I am referring. When these lower sale fares were also appearing on Trainline, I thought that they would be on all retail sites. So, I guess that we must always also check TOC websites for special offers.

Remember that although Trainline may have sale tickets it doesn't mean they are the cheapest. It is better to go to a TFW booking office where you could possibly get a cheaper ticket. Just give the booking office all the details of the journey you want, and if price is the most important thing to you tell them you want the cheapest possible and to look for routes which go Via different routes than the fastest.

 

[Envoy]

Remember that although Trainline may have sale tickets it doesn't mean they are the cheapest. It is better to go to a TFW booking office where you could possibly get a cheaper ticket. Just give the booking office all the details of the journey you want, and if price is the most important thing to you tell them you want the cheapest possible and to look for routes which go Via different routes than the fastest.

All well & good but are TfW staff in booking offices allowed to tell people the cheapest way of getting from a to b? For example, going from Cardiff to Shrewsbury as a day trip, it is often cheaper to split the ticket at Cwmbran and Ludlow. If going from a Cardiff suburban station to Llanelli as a day return, it is cheaper to buy 3 return tickets such as Fairwater to Cardiff Central; Central to Gowerton & Gowerton to Llanelli. Would they actually tell people that or would they get into trouble for doing so?

 

[30907]

All well & good but are TfW staff in booking offices allowed to tell people the cheapest way of getting from a to b? For example, going from Cardiff to Shrewsbury as a day trip, it is often cheaper to split the ticket at Cwmbran and Ludlow. If going from a Cardiff suburban station to Llanelli as a day return, it is cheaper to buy 3 return tickets such as Fairwater to Cardiff Central; Central to Gowerton & Gowerton to Llanelli. Would they actually tell people that or would they get into trouble for doing so?

The official answer is that they should sell what they are asked for - so if you do the research they should sell the ticket.
That leaves it up to you to catch a train that stops at Cwmbran/Gowerton.

 

[Envoy]

The official answer is that they should sell what they are asked for - so if you do the research they should sell the ticket.
That leaves it up to you to catch a train that stops at Cwmbran/Gowerton.

So, it people can't work out the cheapest way from websites, it sounds from your response that they won’t tell you? No point in going to the ticket staff in stations then?

 

[mangyiscute]

So, it people can't work out the cheapest way from websites, it sounds from your response that they won’t tell you? No point in going to the ticket staff in stations then?

There are many reasons to go to a ticket office, perhaps you want like a ranger/rover which cannot be bought elsewhere, or you struggle to use things like websites and apps and TVMs, or perhaps the TVM won't print your ticket because you don't have the card, and the staff in the ticket office can print it. I have also seen ticket office staff at Axminster selling a split ticket journey to people who just asked for "return to Manchester"

 

[macflint]

So, it people can't work out the cheapest way from websites, it sounds from your response that they won’t tell you? No point in going to the ticket staff in stations then?

If you ask for the cheapest option the staff must find the best option for you which could be the cheapest even if it takes you an extra hour or two to get to your destination. that is why I look at all options when I sell tickets if asked for the cheapest because there may only be a pound difference causing over an hour delay to the customer. I then give the customer the option.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

All well & good but are TfW staff in booking offices allowed to tell people the cheapest way of getting from a to b? For example, going from Cardiff to Shrewsbury as a day trip, it is often cheaper to split the ticket at Cwmbran and Ludlow. If going from a Cardiff suburban station to Llanelli as a day return, it is cheaper to buy 3 return tickets such as Fairwater to Cardiff Central; Central to Gowerton & Gowerton to Llanelli. Would they actually tell people that or would they get into trouble for doing so?

Despite the regular assertion here, I can find nothing in the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement that prevents a ticket office offering split tickets, even without being explicitly requested.

Of course, TfW or any other TOC are at liberty to instruct their staff not to offer splits unless requested. (But FWIW, I was at a TfW station yesterday and the ticket office staff volunteered that a split might be relevant for the journey I was making!)

 

[father_jack]

Despite the regular assertion here, I can find nothing in the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement that prevents a ticket office offering split tickets, even without being explicitly requested.

Of course, TfW or any other TOC are at liberty to instruct their staff not to offer splits unless requested. (But FWIW, I was at a TfW station yesterday and the ticket office staff volunteered that a split might be relevant for the journey I was making!)

But look what's said here

National Rail Enquiries - General Use of Tickets

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information.

internal.nationalrail.co.uk

Combination of tickets​

The Fares Finder has fares for most through journeys. Tickets should always be sold for the throughout journey required unless a customer specially requests more than one ticket for the journey. In such cases the combination of tickets should cover the entire journey being made. The National Rail Conditions of Travel specify circumstances when tickets may be used in combination (Conditions 14.1 - 14.4).

 

[Watershed]

But look what's said here

"Should" isn't the same as "mustn't".

 

[CyrusWuff]

Despite the regular assertion here, I can find nothing in the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement that prevents a ticket office offering split tickets, even without being explicitly requested.

Of course, TfW or any other TOC are at liberty to instruct their staff not to offer splits unless requested. (But FWIW, I was at a TfW station yesterday and the ticket office staff volunteered that a split might be relevant for the journey I was making!)

It's implied within the "Impartial Retailing" section (6-30) of Volume 1 of the TSA (starting on page 170 of the PDF), rather than explicitly stated. The requirement not to offer split tickets unless a specific combination is explicitly requested comes from Knowledgebase (and the National Fares Manuals before it). One reason for that being that you might offer a split at X on a journey from A to B, but it may actually be cheaper to split at Y and Z, so you've still not sold the cheapest ticket.

An Operator which Sells Fares, or provides information about them, on a train or at an Impartial Point of Sale or an Impartial Information Centre must act fairly and impartially between Operators. Any such information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial.

Let's say, for example, that you're working at the Ticket Office at Sheffield and someone asks you for a Day Return to Birmingham, travelling on a weekday at around 09:45. The only ticket you can sell that complies with impartiality rules is the Off-Peak Return (priced by XC) at £52.80.

That you can bring that down to £33.70 by selling an Off-Peak Day Return to Derby (priced by EMR, and costing £13.30) and an Off-Peak Return onwards to Birmingham (priced by XC, and costing £20.40) is irrelevant unless explicitly requested, as proactively offering the split breaches the impartiality rule (given it directly affects XC's revenue).

The TSA continues:

Where an Operator is asked to recommend a suitable Fare..., it must request sufficient additional information to enable it to make the recommendation.

If more than one Fare is suitable, the Operator must explain the main features of the alternatives in an impartial manner.

And finally, Section 6-31:

MATCHING OF FARES TO PRODUCE A THROUGH JOURNEY

Where, at an Impartial Point of Sale, a person indicates that he wishes to make a journey for which a Fare is not available, the Operator which operates that Impartial Point of Sale must offer to Sell him a combination of two or more of the Fares offered for Sale at that Impartial Point of Sale which between them are valid for the whole journey unless such a combination is not possible using the Fares that are offered for Sale there. The Operator must use its reasonable endeavours to ensure that the combined Fares meet the Purchaser's requirements.

Given through fares are available for the vast majority of journeys on the network, it's rare that the clause in question will need to be invoked, but when it is the Seller needs to make sure they comply with relevant rules regarding use of a combination of tickets.

YMMV when interpreting the section in question, of course.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

That's an interesting post, thank you, and the first time I've seen someone actually try to work through what the TSA says rather than just hand-waving about it.

To me the crux appears to be the suggestion that "proactively offering the split breaches the impartiality rule (given it directly affects XC's revenue)". I'm not convinced about that. 6-30 defines the impartiality obligation. There's nothing about revenue in there, and I doubt one would expect there to be: it's EMR and XC's respective setting of fares and restrictions that affect the revenue. It might be interesting (for lawyers) to work through the possible interpretations of "more than one" in 6-30.2.c. It might also be interesting to consider how a court would view "factual, accurate and impartial" in a world where Trainline, the single biggest retailer of tickets for the National Rail network, offers splits routinely.

So overall, given the absence of a "thou shalt not" in the TSA, I believe any TOC employee would feel justified in offering split fares if their employer doesn't expressly forbid it. I could imagine a situation where, as per your example, XC might complain to EMR if splits were routinely being offered at Sheffield ticket office. I could also imagine a situation where EMR would be able to defend themselves successfully. Given the world we live in it will probably come down to DfT diktat.

 

[Envoy]

Surely, station staff run by a particular TOC would be told to tell passengers to split the ticket in order for their TOC employer to gain revenue at the expense of a through ticket where someone like Cross Country charge a higher price?

 

[mangyiscute]

Surely, station staff run by a particular TOC would be told to tell passengers to split the ticket in order for their TOC employer to gain revenue at the expense of a through ticket where someone like Cross Country charge a higher price?

But isn't the whole point of the impartial point of sale rules to stop something like this happening?

 

[Hadders]

Surely, station staff run by a particular TOC would be told to tell passengers to split the ticket in order for their TOC employer to gain revenue at the expense of a through ticket where someone like Cross Country charge a higher price?

No. There are serious repercussions for this. Back in the 1990s a TOC we’re stripped of their franchise before it had even started for doing a similar thing.

 

[CyrusWuff]

No. There are serious repercussions for this. Back in the 1990s a TOC we’re stripped of their franchise before it had even started for doing a similar thing.

That was slightly different, as it was an accountancy fiddle. Day Travelcards were being issued at Fenchurch Street, but sent to Barking (joint station with LU) to be sold.

 

[Hadders]

That was slightly different, as it was an accountancy fiddle. Day Travelcards were being issued at Fenchurch Street, but sent to Barking (joint station with LU) to be sold.

Indeed but the effect was to deprive another operator (in this case London Underground) of revenue.

If ticket office staff are instructed by management to sell customers a combination of tickets, such that their own TOC gains more revenue then this would potentially have similarities to the London, Tilbury & Southend case.