Nearly £2000 fine over an expired railcard

[Hadders]

Discussion about what action should be taken when a railcard has expired has been split into a separate thread:

Discussion About What Action Should be Taken Against Passengers With Expired Railcards

Split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nearly-%C2%A32000-fine-over-an-expired-railcard.288014/ I'm increasingly coming to see this matter of Penalty Fares, etc, as not so much a defence against fraudulent travel, but rather as, for the TOCs, a Nice Little Earner. As has been pointed...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bovverboy]

The options I am seeing on the table, potentially, are
a) The original £120 only, since the Original Poster (OP) did commit to pay that, but the payment bounced

SWR said the £120 payment had been declined, but they didn't say by whom. It could only realistically said that a payment had been 'declined' by a bank if we were talking of a Direct Debit, which, clearly, we're not. Reading into SWR's communication, I would say that the £120 payment had been declined by themselves in order for the amount requested to be revised.

 

[island]

That seems the most likely, although one must not rule out other possibilities such as the payment having an incorrect reference number or being received out of time.

 

[WesternLancer]

That seems the most likely, although one must not rule out other possibilities such as the payment having an incorrect reference number or being received out of time.

Not enough money in the bank account to pay the sum?
Would that be a possible reason

 

[Bovverboy]

Not enough money in the bank account to pay the sum?
Would that be a possible reason

I've already as good as ruled that one out, owing to the phraseology used in SWR's communication.

 

[Starmill]

It could only realistically said that a payment had been 'declined' by a bank if we were talking of a Direct Debit, which, clearly, we're not.

Online card payments can also be declined. How was it actually being paid?

 

[applepie05]

i’m also really confused how that didn’t go through as I paid as soon as I received the letter and way ahead of the deadline and i remember transferring money so that there would be enough funds but now on my bank app i can’t find the transaction so it may well have been declined by SWR.

I haven’t received a reply at all from them and am going to run out of time for their deadline before taking me to court. I was considering making a complaint to their complaints team but is that a waste of time? i don’t have high hopes from them but the officers on email i have been deadline with have been beyond useless (the screenshot I attached from last week is the last communication i received). also it is ridiculous of them to not be replying to my queries whilst pushing me with a deadline! it’s like they just want to intimidate me to give them all my savings.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just so we are clear, SWR haven’t laid papers to prosecute you for any offence? Because they are too late to do so anyway, if this incident happened in December.

 

[applepie05]

they sent me a letter in april ordering me to pay £120 or i will be taken to court and i paid well within the deadline and chucked away the letter as i thought that was the end of it. but now they emailed me (it would’ve been a letter but i moved houses and they don’t have my current address) and told me that I need to pay the £2k and the payment was declined (unsure if it’s by them or the bank but i think it is SWR) and that was only for the offence in december alone and didn’t account for the other times i used an expired railcard.

are you sure they can’t take any action as the incident did happen in december?

 

[Trainbike46]

they sent me a letter in april ordering me to pay £120 or i will be taken to court and i paid well within the deadline and chucked away the letter as i thought that was the end of it. but now they emailed me (it would’ve been a letter but i moved houses and they don’t have my current address) and told me that I need to pay the £2k and the payment was declined (unsure if it’s by them or the bank but i think it is SWR) and that was only for the offence in december alone and didn’t account for the other times i used an expired railcard.

are you sure they can’t take any action as the incident did happen in december?

Cases heard in magistrates court, including summary offences and either-way offences heard in magistrates court, must have court papers laid within 6 months of the alleged offence. This is under section 127 of the Magistrates Court act 1980 available here.

The offences relevant (railway byelaws and relevant parts of RoRa) are all summary-only offences so can only be tried in magistrates court.

Therefore, as covered on the previous page, criminal action is out of the question provided such papers haven't been laid yet (and I think you'd konw by now if they had been).

Civil court isn't out of the question, but that is significantly less serious than criminal court. When was your last reply to SWR, and when was the last time they replied to you?

 

[applepie05]

Really appreciate you laying out the information so clearly, thank you.

SWR are really confusing and intimidating me as the letter they wrote me says there’s a risk of me having a criminal record if I go to court and lose. They did send me a letter within the 6 months (on March) regarding me paying £120 which I did try to do but that doesn’t count right?

They last emailed me 16/06 and I replied to them the same day with no response, even though I requested a breakdown of the calculation.

Shall I call their complaints team and citizens advice meanwhile?

 

[Trainbike46]

Really appreciate you laying out the information so clearly, thank you.

SWR are really confusing and intimidating me as the letter they wrote me says there’s a risk of me having a criminal record if I go to court and lose. They did send me a letter within the 6 months (on March) regarding me paying £120 which I did try to do but that doesn’t count right?

No, for it to count they must have laid papers with the court. Sending a letter to you doesn't qualify for that.

They last emailed me 16/06 and I replied to them the same day with no response, even though I requested a breakdown of the calculation.

Shall I call their complaints team and citizens advice meanwhile?

That's up to you really, and others are better placed to advice. However, personally I would wait a bit longer.

 

[WesternLancer]

Really appreciate you laying out the information so clearly, thank you.

SWR are really confusing and intimidating me as the letter they wrote me says there’s a risk of me having a criminal record if I go to court and lose. They did send me a letter within the 6 months (on March) regarding me paying £120 which I did try to do but that doesn’t count right?

They last emailed me 16/06 and I replied to them the same day with no response, even though I requested a breakdown of the calculation.

Shall I call their complaints team and citizens advice meanwhile?

I personally I would not start involving complaints processes with SWR unless you can actually prove you did pay the £120. As far as they are concerned you have not paid a sum they requested from you for travelling without a valid ticket

Do you have any kind of receipt or proof of payment of the £120? I think you should probably be separately speaking to your bank to find out why this payment did not go through.

And if it went to court AIUI yes, would would lose, and you would receive a criminal record and a court fine. So you do need to seek to avoid court as you are trying to do IMHO.

 

[Trainbike46]

Do you have any kind of receipt or proof of payment of the £120? I think you should probably be separately speaking to your bank to find out why this payment did not go through.

That is a good idea - payments shoulndn't just disappear from the records.

And if it went to court AIUI yes, would would lose, and you would receive a criminal record and a court fine. So you do need to seek to avoid court as you are trying to do IMHO.

The 6 month time limit means that a criminal prosecution for the railway byelaws and/or rora (or any other magistrates court only offence) is no longer possible - civil court will not lead to a criminal record.

 

[WesternLancer]

The 6 month time limit means that a criminal prosecution for the railway byelaws and/or rora (or any other magistrates court only offence) is no longer possible - civil court will not lead to a criminal record.

Good point, thanks for mentioning it (tho it does not mean the railway company won't try...even if that is just a cock up - after all if they had smooth, fail safe systems the OP's payment might have been received OK, and the response asking for a breakdown of this large follow up sum might have been answered by now....)

 

[Haywain]

Do you have any kind of receipt or proof of payment of the £120? I think you should probably be separately speaking to your bank to find out why this payment did not go through.

The best option would be a bank statement showing the payment, as that would confirm that the money left the OP's account, and where it went.

 

[Elecman]

Your bank statement should show a Debit transaction on the day you paid the amount and a seperate Credit transaction showing the amount being returned to your account

 

[Haywain]

Your bank statement should show a Debit transaction on the day you paid the amount and a seperate Credit transaction showing the amount being returned to your account

Not if the payment never went through.

 

[Elecman]

Not if the payment never went through.

Didn’t the Op state the payment showed initially then just disappeared?

 

[Haywain]

Didn’t the Op state the payment showed initially then just disappeared?

Yes, but a payment that is only in pending status will do that.

 

[Trainbike46]

The OPs bank should be able to tell them what happened with the payment - whether it is pending, was returned, failed in some other way, or even something none of us have thought of, so I would agree with @WesternLancer's suggestion to OP to contact their bank.