Need help understanding Bradshaw's 1910 timetables and routes

[kimtheilmann]

Hello! And thank you in advance. I am attempting to find some specific train timetables in the 1910 Bradshaws Guide, but am having trouble figuring out how to use the book. I am looking at an online version (I won't have access to a printed version until January), and don't understand how it is organized. I can't tell whether it's best to look something up by the specific station/desination or by the starting station.

For instance, if I want to find out which trains would have run on a Sunday, from Glasgow to Smethwick Handsworth, my guess is that I need to first look for Glasgow to Birmingham? And then look for Birmingham to Smethwick Handsworth? I believe there were several different lines one could have taken from Glasgow to Birmingham, so I'm confused.

Or should I be looking at Glasgow in the index, find Birmingham, and then find Smethwick Handsworth?

I am writing a story about my great uncle, who was a music hall performer in the 1910's. He would have traveled quite a bit on Sundays. His comings and goings figure into the story. I'd like it to be as realistic as possible, so sprinkling in a few specific stations and times will add some authenticity.

Thank you again!

- Kim

 

[StephenHunter]

Do you have a link to the document?

 

[Bevan Price]

Hello! And thank you in advance. I am attempting to find some specific train timetables in the 1910 Bradshaws Guide, but am having trouble figuring out how to use the book. I am looking at an online version (I won't have access to a printed version until January), and don't understand how it is organized. I can't tell whether it's best to look something up by the specific station/desination or by the starting station.

For instance, if I want to find out which trains would have run on a Sunday, from Glasgow to Smethwick Handsworth, my guess is that I need to first look for Glasgow to Birmingham? And then look for Birmingham to Smethwick Handsworth? I believe there were several different lines one could have taken from Glasgow to Birmingham, so I'm confused.

Or should I be looking at Glasgow in the index, find Birmingham, and then find Smethwick Handsworth?

I am writing a story about my great uncle, who was a music hall performer in the 1910's. He would have traveled quite a bit on Sundays. His comings and goings figure into the story. I'd like it to be as realistic as possible, so sprinkling in a few specific stations and times will add some authenticity.

Thank you again!

- Kim

The easiest way is to look up Glasgow in the index, and under Glasgow, look for Birmingham. It should show the page (or pages) on which relevant timetables appear. Note that Sunday services in 1910 are likely to have been a bit sparse.
Note possible arrival times in Birmingham.

Repeat the exercise for Birmingham to Handsworth; if Handsworth is not listed under Birmingham in the index, search for Handsworth. Note, you may have had to change stations in Birmingham, from New Street (L&NWR) to Snow Hill (GWR). Allow at least 10 minutes for walking between those stations.

As an alternative, it would have been possible to change trains at Wolverhampton, where the L&NWR (High Level) and GWR (Low Level) stations were adjacent.

Edit - Note that Bradshaw did not always distinguish between through trains and connecting services.

 

[Gloster]

Do take care to ensure you don’t mix a.m. and p.m. up, and also pay attention to the various footnotes, which are important, but can be confusing. I presume that it is the April 1910 edition: my (reprint) copy was so close that it could pick it up without even sitting up.

 

[kimtheilmann]

The easiest way is to look up Glasgow in the index, and under Glasgow, look for Birmingham. It should show the page (or pages) on which relevant timetables appear. Note that Sunday services in 1910 are likely to have been a bit sparse.
Note possible arrival times in Birmingham.

Repeat the exercise for Birmingham to Handsworth; if Handsworth is not listed under Birmingham in the index, search for Handsworth. Note, you may have had to change stations in Birmingham, from New Street (L&NWR) to Snow Hill (GWR). Allow at least 10 minutes for walking between those stations.

As an alternative, it would have been possible to change trains at Wolverhampton, where the L&NWR (High Level) and GWR (Low Level) stations were adjacent.

Edit - Note that Bradshaw did not always distinguish between through trains and connecting services.

OK, thank you. I think I'm at a disadvantage as I'm in the U.S. and do not recognize some of the smaller towns and cities. The larger ones (London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool) make sense to me and I know the geography. The little branch lines are tripping me up.

Do you have a link to the document?

Here is the link to the online version of the Bradshaw's 1910 guide that I'm trying to find the stations and timetables....

Bradshaw's railway guide 1910.

The London - Birmingham - Glasgow route makes sense. I'm now trying to figure out Halifax --> Handsworth Smethwick. It looks like the transfer might be at two stations: Manchester Victoria/Manchester Piccidilly, and then again in Birmingham ___ to Birmingham Snow Hill.

Do take care to ensure you don’t mix a.m. and p.m. up, and also pay attention to the various footnotes, which are important, but can be confusing. I presume that it is the April 1910 edition: my (reprint) copy was so close that it could pick it up without even sitting up.

Dear Gloster... any chance you could walk me through a sample route? Halifax --> Handsworth Smethwick. On a Sunday... LOL. It looks like Halifax is a major station serviced by the Great Northern, London and Northwest, London and Northeast and Midland.

I am in the U.S. and have a disadvantage in that I don't recognize some of the smaller towns and cities or their geographic relationship to one another. In the case of Halifax, perhaps it makes sense for the traveler to back track Northeast to Bradford or Leeds and then head toward Birmingham????

 

[Gloster]

Handsworth and Smethwick are two adjoining parts of Birmingham. Handsworth station was on the GWR line and Smethwick on the LNWR line that ran roughly parallel to it: they are only about a mile apart. There were also Smethwick Junction on a branch off the GWR line and Soho, very slightly nearer to Birmingham on the LNWR line than Smethwick.

My feeling would be that he would buy a ticket from Glasgow to whichever of Smethwick or Soho was nearer to his destination and then walk the rest: in those days people habitually walked long distances. This is because he could probably get a through ticket from Glasgow to Smethwick or Soho without trouble in Glasgow as the company that operated the train(s) on which he travelled south of Carlisle, which he had probably joined in Glasgow, was the LNWR that served Smethwick. He might have left the train from the north at Wolverhampton to avoid doubling back from Birmingham New Street.

If he travelled to the GWR station at Handsworth he would have to take a short walk across the centre of Birmingham to Birmingham Snow Hill Station and then buy a ticket to Handsworth. Unless he was lucky with the trains, which would not be likely due to the sparse Sunday service, this might involve a wait at Snow Hill and take longer than walking from Smethwick or Soho, even if his walk took him past Handsworth (GWR) Station.

EDIT: I have found a possible journey from Halifax to Smethwick on a Sunday by the shortest route. However, it is leave Halifax at 12.25 and after three changes reach Smethwick at 19.14. I will check this tomorrow, sorry, later today, and also look at one or two other possibilities. I presume that as a music hall entertainer he would have finished performing on Saturday night and want to be back (home?) as soon as possible.

 

[kimtheilmann]

Handsworth and Smethwick are two adjoining parts of Birmingham. Handsworth station was on the GWR line and Smethwick on the LNWR line that ran roughly parallel to it: they are only about a mile apart. There were also Smethwick Junction on a branch off the GWR line and Soho, very slightly nearer to Birmingham on the LNWR line than Smethwick.

My feeling would be that he would buy a ticket from Glasgow to whichever of Smethwick or Soho was nearer to his destination and then walk the rest: in those days people habitually walked long distances. This is because he could probably get a through ticket from Glasgow to Smethwick or Soho without trouble in Glasgow as the company that operated the train(s) on which he travelled south of Carlisle, which he had probably joined in Glasgow, was the LNWR that served Smethwick. He might have left the train from the north at Wolverhampton to avoid doubling back from Birmingham New Street.

If he travelled to the GWR station at Handsworth he would have to take a short walk across the centre of Birmingham to Birmingham Snow Hill Station and then buy a ticket to Handsworth. Unless he was lucky with the trains, which would not be likely due to the sparse Sunday service, this might involve a wait at Snow Hill and take longer than walking from Smethwick or Soho, even if his walk took him past Handsworth (GWR) Station.

Thank you! That's very helpful. His ultimate destination was a house that was midway between Handsworth Smethwick and Handsworth wood. So it was a toss up.

Handsworth and Smethwick are two adjoining parts of Birmingham. Handsworth station was on the GWR line and Smethwick on the LNWR line that ran roughly parallel to it: they are only about a mile apart. There were also Smethwick Junction on a branch off the GWR line and Soho, very slightly nearer to Birmingham on the LNWR line than Smethwick.

My feeling would be that he would buy a ticket from Glasgow to whichever of Smethwick or Soho was nearer to his destination and then walk the rest: in those days people habitually walked long distances. This is because he could probably get a through ticket from Glasgow to Smethwick or Soho without trouble in Glasgow as the company that operated the train(s) on which he travelled south of Carlisle, which he had probably joined in Glasgow, was the LNWR that served Smethwick. He might have left the train from the north at Wolverhampton to avoid doubling back from Birmingham New Street.

If he travelled to the GWR station at Handsworth he would have to take a short walk across the centre of Birmingham to Birmingham Snow Hill Station and then buy a ticket to Handsworth. Unless he was lucky with the trains, which would not be likely due to the sparse Sunday service, this might involve a wait at Snow Hill and take longer than walking from Smethwick or Soho, even if his walk took him past Handsworth (GWR) Station.

EDIT: I have found a possible journey from Halifax to Smethwick on a Sunday by the shortest route. However, it is leave Halifax at 12.25 and after three changes reach Smethwick at 19.14. I will check this tomorrow, sorry, later today, and also look at one or two other possibilities. I presume that as a music hall entertainer he would have finished performing on Saturday night and want to be back (home?) as soon as possible.

Yes, that’s correct! I imagine there were very few trains starting on late Saturday night after 11:00 pm, as well.

 

[Shrewbly]

His ultimate destination was a house that was midway between Handsworth Smethwick and Handsworth wood

Just to add, Smethwick and Handsworth Wood are about 4 miles apart, and Handsworth Wood was a station in its own right. In fact the station was located between Smethwick and Handsworth Wood (near Handsworth Park). It also had a service direct from Birmingham New Street, so I imagine that would have been his first choice - except that unfortunately for him I don't think it had a Sunday service.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Handsworth was served by tram from Colmore Row, so this might have been a option particularly on a Sunday or late in the evening with a limited train service. In 1910 it was still cable-worked (like San Francisco), being taken over and converted to a conventional electrified route by Birmingham Corporation the following year.

 

[30907]

Not sure there's much to add here, but (having worked in timetable enquiries in post-Bradshaw but pre-computer days) for an urban area I would identify possible local stations and look them up first - and also consider buses (trams in 1910!) as Sir Felix Pole has mentioned.

Anywhere of reasonable size in Bradshaw would have a list of major destinations that could be reached (as you can see from the 1910 index).

 

[kimtheilmann]

Handsworth and Smethwick are two adjoining parts of Birmingham. Handsworth station was on the GWR line and Smethwick on the LNWR line that ran roughly parallel to it: they are only about a mile apart. There were also Smethwick Junction on a branch off the GWR line and Soho, very slightly nearer to Birmingham on the LNWR line than Smethwick.

My feeling would be that he would buy a ticket from Glasgow to whichever of Smethwick or Soho was nearer to his destination and then walk the rest: in those days people habitually walked long distances. This is because he could probably get a through ticket from Glasgow to Smethwick or Soho without trouble in Glasgow as the company that operated the train(s) on which he travelled south of Carlisle, which he had probably joined in Glasgow, was the LNWR that served Smethwick. He might have left the train from the north at Wolverhampton to avoid doubling back from Birmingham New Street.

If he travelled to the GWR station at Handsworth he would have to take a short walk across the centre of Birmingham to Birmingham Snow Hill Station and then buy a ticket to Handsworth. Unless he was lucky with the trains, which would not be likely due to the sparse Sunday service, this might involve a wait at Snow Hill and take longer than walking from Smethwick or Soho, even if his walk took him past Handsworth (GWR) Station.

EDIT: I have found a possible journey from Halifax to Smethwick on a Sunday by the shortest route. However, it is leave Halifax at 12.25 and after three changes reach Smethwick at 19.14. I will check this tomorrow, sorry, later today, and also look at one or two other possibilities. I presume that as a music hall entertainer he would have finished performing on Saturday night and want to be back (home?) as soon as possible.

Sorry to be such a pain in this... can you tell me which page numbers you are referrencing, in sequence? I am trying to also understand how to use the 1910 guide so I can look up additional routes. The added complication in my "story" of uncle Archie is that he was a one-legged dancer, and so, walking between stations with a trunk was probably a challenge! My guess is that he found a way from Halifax-->Huddersfield. Then Huddersfield--> Crewe. Change at Crewe (with the help of a porter). Then Crewe--> Birmingham. ???

 

[Gloster]

Well, I have roughed out two possibilities. One departs from Halifax at 12.25 as above and with four changes; the other is a different route, which might be slightly more expensive, leaving Halifax at 09.58, and reaching Smethwick at 15.56 and Birmingham New Street at 16.10.

Handsworth Wood, which was only a small halt, does not appear to have had Sunday trains.

I will look out which pages I use.

EDIT:

For the route via Huddersfield I used page 788 from Halifax to Huddersfield, page 525 from Huddersfield to Stalybridge and Stalybridge to Stockport (that timetable starts on 520), 518 for Stockport to Crewe (starts on 516) and 418 for Crewe to Birmingham (starts on 404) and for the detail of getting to Smethwick, I cross-referenced the last with 452 (starts on 450).

The most important things are to make sure you have got a departure time when that is what you need, not an arrival one (and vice-versa). Similarly, many entries in timetables are for connecting times, either to or from, and these can be between the arrival and departure times of the main station. On page 418 Crewe, being a major junction, has nineteen places listed between the arrival and departure times: these are the times that you would have to leave these stations in order to catch at Crewe the train listed as departing immediately below the list.

A final thought. I think that in your great-uncle’s situation, I would go in to the main station in Birmingham (New Street in this case, but there was also Snow Hill) and then get a tram out to the stop nearest his destination. Trams were pretty cheap and fairly frequent.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Having helped with a few historical railway narratives over the years it is helpful to consider the protagonist's attitude to rail travel. For all practical intents and purposes railways had a monopoly of long distance travel in 1910. They were also eye-wateringly expensive. A Glasgow-Birmingham Third Class single (around 300 miles) would cost more than the average workman's wages for a week.

I realise that itinerant performers might be paid expenses but long distance travel was a slow and uncomfortable pain, especially if you were disabled. The major junction of Crewe was renowned for its lengthy waits for connections, sometimes overnight in a waiting room. Ironically actors and performers made up a significant proportion of the travellers (along with the armed forces) and it was not at all uncommon for stage artists to pick up agents and potential new bookings there.

Did your relative like railways or regard them as a distress purchase?

 

[the sniper]

Handsworth and Smethwick are two adjoining parts of Birmingham. Handsworth station was on the GWR line and Smethwick on the LNWR line that ran roughly parallel to it.

Handsworth's GWR station (where Handsworth Booth Street tram stop is now) was called 'Handsworth & Smethwick', to be fair. Presumably where the confusion is coming from.

 

[kimtheilmann]

Having helped with a few historical railway narratives over the years it is helpful to consider the protagonist's attitude to rail travel. For all practical intents and purposes railways had a monopoly of long distance travel in 1910. They were also eye-wateringly expensive. A Glasgow-Birmingham Third Class single (around 300 miles) would cost more than the average workman's wages for a week.

I realise that itinerant performers might be paid expenses but long distance travel was a slow and uncomfortable pain, especially if you were disabled. The major junction of Crewe was renowned for its lengthy waits for connections, sometimes overnight in a waiting room. Ironically actors and performers made up a significant proportion of the travellers (along with the armed forces) and it was not at all uncommon for stage artists to pick up agents and potential new bookings there.

Did your relative like railways or regard them as a distress purchase?

I don't have any letters or diaries to indicate how he viewed the travel. For my story, I get to use some creative license and imagine what he might have thought! His Halifax booking came on the tail end of a 5 week tour: Manchester, Birkenhead, Carlisle, Huddersfield and Halifax. Home at the time was in Handsworth. I have heard Crewe mentioned quite often as a rendezvous point for the performers, yes. As for his disability, he was run over by a tram before the age of six. The early years of his age say he is a "one-legged ragtime dancer with an Educated Crutch." Later on, during WW1, several newspaper clippings describe him walking on stage (presumably with a full prosthesis) and then in the middle of his turn, removing his leg and showing the wounded soldiers what he could do with the crutch. it must have been pretty remarkable. As for salary, he was earning 6 - 8 pounds per week, from what I've found. He was a member of the Music Hall Artistes Railway Association, and as such, only paid 3/4 fare and luggage at 1 p per trunk!

Handsworth's GWR station (where Handsworth Booth Street tram stop is now) was called 'Handsworth & Smethwick', to be fair. Presumably where the confusion is coming from.

Thank you, yes.

Well, I have roughed out two possibilities. One departs from Halifax at 12.25 as above and with four changes; the other is a different route, which might be slightly more expensive, leaving Halifax at 09.58, and reaching Smethwick at 15.56 and Birmingham New Street at 16.10.

Handsworth Wood, which was only a small halt, does not appear to have had Sunday trains.

I will look out which pages I use.

EDIT:

For the route via Huddersfield I used page 788 from Halifax to Huddersfield, page 525 from Huddersfield to Stalybridge and Stalybridge to Stockport (that timetable starts on 520), 518 for Stockport to Crewe (starts on 516) and 418 for Crewe to Birmingham (starts on 404) and for the detail of getting to Smethwick, I cross-referenced the last with 452 (starts on 450).

The most important things are to make sure you have got a departure time when that is what you need, not an arrival one (and vice-versa). Similarly, many entries in timetables are for connecting times, either to or from, and these can be between the arrival and departure times of the main station. On page 418 Crewe, being a major junction, has nineteen places listed between the arrival and departure times: these are the times that you would have to leave these stations in order to catch at Crewe the train listed as departing immediately below the list.

A final thought. I think that in your great-uncle’s situation, I would go in to the main station in Birmingham (New Street in this case, but there was also Snow Hill) and then get a tram out to the stop nearest his destination. Trams were pretty cheap and fairly frequent.

Thank you. I'll try to follow along tonight with the pages and see if I can see the connections. Thank you for the lesson! The "four changes" to get home" might fit the story nicely!