Network Rail bets on mindfulness (and err...Greggs) to lure commuters back

[JonathanH]

Indeed. The national railcard needs to be introduced for starters.

A product to encourage leisure travel and get less revenue from those who already travel extensively by train isn't going to help with reducing peak fares or enhance the revenue paid to the treasury.

One of the problems with it is that it locks in with the current fare structure and is a blunt instrument that doesn't focus people towards the right services. I think the plans for changing fares need to happen first.

 

[ar10642]

This in my opinion is not about influencing others, but is it fair and justified for people such as police, transport workers, service workers and similar, to effectively be subsidising those working from home.

I mean you could argue about whether that's really happening because you're only supposed to claim it if your employer *requires* you to work from home and you will probably have to set aside a dedicated space in your house to do it. But either way it's not going to do much to solve the problems caused by the railway's choice to be uncompetitive by refusing to face the new reality.

I don't understand why all the "solutions" to this have to be about making life harder for people rather than the railway just setting the right price to bring people back.

This in my opinion is not about influencing others, but is it fair and justified for people such as police, transport workers, service workers and similar, to effectively be subsidising those working from home.

I mean you could argue about whether that's really happening because you're only supposed to claim it if your employer *requires* you to work from home and you will probably have to set aside a dedicated space in your house to do it. But either way it's not going to do much to solve the problems caused by the railway's choice to be uncompetitive by refusing to face the new reality.

 

[JonathanH]

On the topic of making anytime fares cheaper, I note that people do sometimes look at places where peak fares aren't very different from off-peak fares (or off-peak fares don't exist) and feel that the off-peak fares must be expensive. All psychological.

 

[yorksrob]

A product to encourage leisure travel and get less revenue from those who already travel extensively by train isn't going to help with reducing peak fares or enhance the revenue paid to the treasury.

One of the problems with it is that it locks in with the current fare structure and is a blunt instrument that doesn't focus people towards the right services. I think the plans for changing fares need to happen first.

In a lot of places peak fares need to be blunted as a starter.

 

[43096]

Most big companies already have their accounting, HR etc. outsourced to Eastern Europe anyway.

Which is largely for high volume, transactional type activities such as accounts payable that can be integrated into a service centre. My employer tried it with some of the finance roles embedded in operational teams and it was disastrous - my boss spent a considerable amount of time reversing it and bringing roles back to the UK.

 

[Annetts key]

Cheaper, simpler fares.
Fewer restrictions.
More comfortable trains better designed for leisure use.

I agree. The fare pricing is far too complicated and confusing.

If most trains are currently running half empty or less, what is the point of the restrictions? Earlier this week I traveled on two peak time trains. In both cases, you could have accommodated all the passengers that were in the coach I was in, in a minibus, no matter which part of the journey the train was on.

The GWR 80X series seats are truly dreadful. And ride quality (or rather, lack of, presumably, due to the design of the suspension) is poor as well. After two and a half hours on one, I was glad to get off. Honestly, the circle line tube trains are more comfortable.

Unfortunately, I don’t see anything changing. The treasury is currently keeping the railways running by pouring money in, so they will strongly resist anything that looks like it will reduce money from the current fare income.

And there is no way they are going to pay for trains to be modified or improved to make them more comfortable. Especially the relatively new trains like the 80X series.

Back to the main subject, an offer of a free drink or snack may help if it was done better. E.g. a voucher when you buy a six month or longer season ticket, that entitles you to a free drink or snack each day you use your ticket for say three months. Maybe Network Rail and the TOCs could do a deal with SSP and the other companies that have shops on stations, plus the on-board catering companies.

The current system is a very poor effort, and will do very little.

 

[Craig1122]

On the topic of making anytime fares cheaper, I note that people do sometimes look at places where peak fares aren't very different from off-peak fares (or off-peak fares don't exist) and feel that the off-peak fares must be expensive. All psychological.

SWR off peak fares have risen to nearly as much as the peak fare. It's not psychological because in real terms it means they've nearly doubled compared to 10 or 20 years ago. And there's no longer a network card discount on lower value fares either.

 

[DelayRepay]

Unfortunately, I don’t see anything changing. The treasury is currently keeping the railways running by pouring money in, so they will strongly resist anything that looks like it will reduce money from the current fare income.

Is this part of the problem? Would the TOCs, who are commercial entities after all, be more willing to innovate in terms of pricing and marketing if they were going to receive some of the revenue? At the moment they're being micro-managed so there's no real incentive to try to increase passenger numbers, generate more revenue etc. Hence why we've ended up with this silly scheme instead of measures that might actually encourage more people to choose the train rather than their car.

 

[Smidster]

I come at this from the perspective of a regular person whose sole requirement in getting from A-B rather than those of you for whom rail is a hobby / interest.

Firstly people need a reason to travel and that will only happen if / when they are asked to by their employers - If there is no push from employers to get people into the office then relatively few are going to be pro-active in their return to the workplace. Whatever you think about working from home hybrid styles are going to be more common going forward and it seems very unlikely that most people go back to 5 days per week commuting.

So let's assume that over the next few months more companies do ask people to come back - even if only 2-3 days per week - then people have to make a choice of mode...and the good / bad news for you is that people are so far out of practice / routine they may take time to look at the options.

Unfortunately most factors lead to rail / public transport being unattractive for most:

1) Cost Cost Cost!!!! - Rail is a very expensive mode of transport and right now cost is probably the determining factor for many especially as we have a cost of living crisis and more cost increases on the way. For people who have benefited from low / no commuting costs over the past two years the thought of paying hundreds of pounds a month again is awful - and even worse when money is tight.

There needs to be real decisions about how to make it affordable for people - It strikes me as being absolutely bonkers that you have so many "peak" trains right now carting around nothing - I would love to see stats on how many passengers there are between 3pm and 7pm on Avanti right now and how that does any good for anyone.

2) Reliability & Convenience - Most of us are travelling to get to Point B by Time X...while we accept that sometimes stuff will happen (as it would by other modes) there is a difference between irregular minor problems and regular major ones - Right now passengers do not have confidence in the service to do what they need it to do and are likely to run into all manner of strikes or other nonsense that makes things more difficult.

3) Covid - This will continue to be an issue for a while and it works both ways - there will be people who are really concerned about being out in public and those who are fed up with non-stop announcements about masks. Fortunately these concerns will dissipate over time.

A cup of coffee or niche app isn't going to cut it.

 

[Philip]

The government need to increase the subsidy it provides for the railway and start investing in it rather than cutting (and yes that includes retaining staff). If the money isn't available then it's up to the government to make it available by redirecting their resources; in particular ditching smart motorway projects and easing off on electric cars.

The railway is potentially a gem of a transport method really so in no way should it be left to rot even if the passenger numbers aren't there. Ticket prices need to be reduced carefully and shrewdly, with perhaps new railcard discount products being brought out. However, if people see their ticket money being spent on more frequent and reliable services, reopening of closed stations and lines (to make the railway more accessible), better rolling stock, better refreshment provision and an bigger electrification programme than we currently have (ie. not just 'key links' but rather the vast majority of lines), then this too will persuade many more to start using the train more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you placing no value at all on the fact that someone else does the driving? There is fatigue involved in both travelling by train and driving but at least the train time can be spent sleeping or catching up on other things if necessary.

That is a very personal assessment. Some people find the train incredibly boring and enjoy driving.

 

[43096]

The government need to increase the subsidy it provides for the railway and start investing in it rather than cutting (and yes that includes retaining staff). If the money isn't available then it's up to the government to make it available by redirecting their resources; in particular ditching smart motorway projects and easing off on electric cars.

Increase subsidy? The railway has had massive amounts of taxpayers’ cash over the last two years in particular: that is unsustainable longer term. It has been heavily subsidised even further back than that: indeed subsidy hasn’t decreased (only increased) despite record numbers of passengers. That’s totally out of kilter with what should happen and is a good indicator of how bad the railway is at controlling its costs.

With commuting massively decreased which cuts the core revenue, a poor quality product offering on many routes, appalling customer service, no control of costs and a non-plan for decarbonisation, the railway risks making itself an irrelevance and will only have itself to blame.

 

[Bensonby]

And not surreptitiously changing the National Rail Condition of Travel so that the timetable you agree to is the one that exists at 10pm the day before travel, rather than the one which existed at the time you bought the ticket.

Sorry, what?! When did this happen? Where in the NRCOT is this?

 

[Deltic1961]

Here's an excerpt from the conditions posted here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

I can't see anthing mentioning that.

Quote: "33. HOW TO MAKE A CLAIM UNDER THE INDUSTRY ARRANGEMENTS 33.1. In order to make a claim under the industry arrangements set out at paragraph 32.1.1 above, you must write to the relevant Train Company within 28 days of completing the relevant journey unless informed otherwise by the relevant Train Company. You will need to state the timetabled departure time of the train or trains you intended to use for your journey and provide a Ticket or other authority to travel which was valid for that journey. A Train Company will allow you to retain a Ticket after use for this purpose."

 

[yorkie]

Sorry, what?! When did this happen? Where in the NRCOT is this?

See: Updated National Rail Conditions of Travel - Effective from 6th February 2022

Please continue any NRCoT change discussion in the above thread

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry, what?! When did this happen? Where in the NRCOT is this?

From 4th February.

Updated National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) - Effective from 6th February 2022

Mod Note: A copy of the new NRCoT can be found in this post. Rail Delivery Group sent out a staff brief yesterday to advise of an updated version of the National Rail Conditions of Travel that's effective from 6th February 2022. Unfortunately they haven't uploaded it to either the public NRE...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Philip]

With commuting massively decreased which cuts the core revenue, a poor quality product offering on many routes, appalling customer service, no control of costs and a non-plan for decarbonisation, the railway risks making itself an irrelevance and will only have itself to blame.

Passengers just like to whinge when it comes to customer service; rail staff are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances, because of the reduction in services brought by the DfT and not enough investment.

The potential is there to get people out of their cars and onto the train, but a small reduction in fares won't be enough. The government just need to prioritise their spending on rail more so than they do on other stupid projects like smart motorways.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The potential is there to get people out of their cars and onto the train, but a small reduction in fares won't be enough.

The whole product (hard and soft) needs redefining, really. The things people in here love about the fares system, esoteric policies etc are negative in the wider market.

The government just need to prioritise their spending on rail more so than they do on other stupid projects like smart motorways.

Roads (and buses) benefit more people than trains.

 

[Annetts key]

The government need to increase the subsidy it provides for the railway and start investing in it rather than cutting (and yes that includes retaining staff). If the money isn't available then it's up to the government to make it available by redirecting their resources; in particular ditching smart motorway projects and easing off on electric cars.

The railway is potentially a gem of a transport method really so in no way should it be left to rot even if the passenger numbers aren't there. Ticket prices need to be reduced carefully and shrewdly, with perhaps new railcard discount products being brought out. However, if people see their ticket money being spent on more frequent and reliable services, reopening of closed stations and lines (to make the railway more accessible), better rolling stock, better refreshment provision and an bigger electrification programme than we currently have (ie. not just 'key links' but rather the vast majority of lines), then this too will persuade many more to start using the train more.

Are you aware that the government has told the railways (including Network Rail and the TOCs) that they need to find ways of reducing costs by a substantial amount? The government wants to reduce the amount of subsidy going forward.

Although the rail system was privatised, government provides significant ongoing subsidy and has a statutory obligation to put in place an ‘operator of last resort’ if a franchise cannot provide passenger services.
The COVID-19 pandemic made government’s financial exposure to these risks more immediate because emergency agreements transferred day-to-day revenue and cost risks to the Department, and precipitated the end of the established commercial model of franchising.

Link to the document where the extract above was quoted from

 

[Philip]

Roads (and buses) benefit more people than trains.

My point is that this could be very different if the government were committed and invested the money into making rail more accessible and a more pleasant form of transport, more people will be persuaded to take the train. The railway will never be more convenient than the car but with investment it could be a lot more competitive against the car than it is currently.

Are you aware that the government has told the railways (including Network Rail and the TOCs) that they need to find ways of reducing costs by a substantial amount? The government wants to reduce the amount of subsidy going forward.


Link to the document where the extract above was quoted from

Yes, but I feel it should be the other way round and the government investing more rather than asking the sub divisions to make cuts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point is that this could be very different if the government were committed and invested the money into making rail more accessible and a more pleasant form of transport, more people will be persuaded to take the train. The railway will never be more convenient than the car but with investment it could be a lot more competitive against the car than it is currently.

I think funding for specific projects is valuable, and that might include things like a fares cut or simplification that is expected, over time, to bring revenue back up as people see it suits them better, but is in the short term strongly revenue negative. Just throwing in more "blind subsidy" probably isn't the way to go.

A simple example is cutting Anytime fares to promote leisure travel. You'll want a massive advertising campaign (up front cost) and you'll need to cover the revenue loss until custom slowly builds up.

An example of this sort of funding is how planning gain provides subsidy for new bus services for new developments for 3-5 years, which is generally the amount of time it takes to either build up custom and it becomes commercially viable, or to realise that it is never going to work and needs to be withdrawn or a decision made on long term operating subsidy.

 

[Annetts key]

My point is that this could be very different if the government were committed and invested the money into making rail more accessible and a more pleasant form of transport, more people will be persuaded to take the train. The railway will never be more convenient than the car but with investment it could be a lot more competitive against the car than it is currently.


Yes, but I feel it should be the other way round and the government investing more rather than asking the sub divisions to make cuts.

That’s a very difficult case to make at a time when the government has a very large debt to service, tax income is not as high as the government would like and the expected return of many commuters (buying normal season tickets) has been very slow.

 

[tbwbear]

Notwithstanding much-needed reform of fares....

A well executed loyalty scheme across the whole rail network could have significant impact.

You only have to look at something like the British Airways Executive Club / Avios - to see an example in transport. Possibly something like that, in combination with a German Bahn card system would be the way to go.

I don't know if this new "Greggs" scheme is a good start to someting better or a dead end. We'll see.

One easy thing they seem to be missing is offering redemption elsewhere on the network - as well as bacon rolls, what about a first class upgrade for a day trip to Bath or Edinburgh etc... ?

 

[Phil56]

It's not just comfort, fare etc though is it? How about tackling the lack of Sunday and late night trains? Yes, I know that maintenance needs to be done, but surely it would be better to close/reduce just when work is being done, rather than a blanket reduction/closure even when there's no work being done?

Our small town football club took 15 coaches down to London a few weeks ago for a Sunday FA cup match. It was literally impossible to travel by train there and back the same day from our town. If the match had been on a weekday, or a Saturday, most of those would have gone by train. There is simply no way to get to London by train to arrive there any earlier than early afternoon on a Sunday, the earliest train arrives in Euston at 14:05. If that's not bad enough, the cost for a return is £105, whereas the cost for the coach was £25.

Another problem is trains to airports. I can't get a train to our nearest airport, Manchester before the early morning peak departures, so unless my flight is late morning onwards, I can't get there by train. Same on the return, last train back is 22.10 which is no good for late evening arrivals. That's weekdays, Sundays are worse, can't get there for a Sunday departure until early afternoon, so only useful for late afternoon/evening departures.

If the Govt/Rail firms are serious about leisure travel, they need to improve the Sunday and early morning/late evening provisions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Our small town football club took 15 coaches down to London a few weeks ago for a Sunday FA cup match. It was literally impossible to travel by train there and back the same day from our town. If the match had been on a weekday, or a Saturday, most of those would have gone by train. There is simply no way to get to London by train to arrive there any earlier than early afternoon on a Sunday, the earliest train arrives in Euston at 14:05. If that's not bad enough, the cost for a return is £105, whereas the cost for the coach was £25.

To be fair, coach is public transport too, is very environmentally and road-space efficient, and as such that was probably the correct outcome. Private vehicles are not by definition some sort of evil. Low occupancy private vehicles are, but low occupancy trains are even worse.

 

[RailWonderer]

It cannot be denied that running less services leads to cost reductions across the board too significant to dismiss; leasing costs, maintenance costs, staff training and track access charges. These savings are too significant.

Responding to changing usage patterns by having timetables under constant review will save more money than running excess services useful to small minorities of users and billing the government for the losses (as ToCs did before).

That said, they cannot do this and hike fares above inflation as is always done. I support the idea of a loyalty scheme like Avios and broader Railcard eligibility but extra investment given the climate at the moment is just not viable (given the way costs in the railway have a habit of bloating very quickly).

 

[yorksrob]

It cannot be denied that running less services leads to cost reductions across the board too significant to dismiss; leasing costs, maintenance costs, staff training and track access charges. These savings are too significant.

Responding to changing usage patterns by having timetables under constant review will save more money than running excess services useful to small minorities of users and billing the government for the losses (as ToCs did before).

That said, they cannot do this and hike fares above inflation as is always done. I support the idea of a loyalty scheme like Avios and broader Railcard eligibility but extra investment given the climate at the moment is just not viable (given the way costs in the railway have a habit of bloating very quickly).

The whole regime of track access charges and leading costs needs to be reviewed. These are artificial pricing structures introduced to facilitate the privatisation experiment and serve little purpose in their current form.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A tax on offshoring is not a bad idea at all, though it's not as big an issue as some think it is.

 

[37424]

I think the problem at the moment is that its still not really clear what the long terms effects will be, clearly there is likely to be some drop off in commuting but to what level? and it may vary by region, then there is the increase in leisure travel will it be long term or not? is it fueled by people coming out of hibernation and the increased difficulty in going abroad for holidays at present.

So we could easily see a situation where the Dft desperate to reduce costs make cuts which are too quick and too deep, but on the other hand the taxpayer shouldn't be subsidizing trains which are moving fresh air about for long periods.

 

[Deltic1961]

The issue of later services needs to be addressed too. We live just outside Aberdeen on a commuter route but the last service is 22.50. My son now works in hospitality and has an 11pm finish so the train is no use to him. He's now bought a car and never ever uses the train, where he would have kept buying his monthly pass and just not bothered with a car had he been able to use it to get home.