Network Rail Recommends 80% of the network should be electrified by 2050

[GRALISTAIR]

Yep but we don't have native supplies of uranium, nuclear waste is dangerous and expensive to store,they have to be located away from urban areas, in location with lots of water. It's not that great.

Neither does France and they do OK

 

[AlastairFraser]

Neither does France and they do OK

But we do have native supplies of lithium and massive potential for wind and tidal schemes,which would need battery farms to store their excess energy in. No long-lasting hazardous waste that can't be recycled from them too.

 

[InOban]

I believe that we imported so much uranium for our weapons program that we have no need to import any for nuclear power plants.

 

[Bevan Price]

For trains, it’s a matter of keeping the things clean, and avoiding them being damaged (a surprising amount of stuff lands on train roofs). A typical 240m long train might have space for enough panels to generate 70kW if all the panels were perfectly aligned to the sun, on a sunny day at 1300 in June. Their annual power generation would be about a 10th of that at best, and that assumes they don’t spend much time in tunnels or cuttings. They and their auxiliary equipment would also weig( about 10tonnes, which would have to be lugged around 24/7.

The same cleaning requirement would also apply to lineside panels. Especially in wet weather, lots of mud and other debris will be sprayed for several metres each time a fast train goes past.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

But we do have native supplies of lithium --------

Well that is news to me.
Not even in the top 10 - the article quotes lithium countries by production
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/List-of-countries-by-lithium-production-in-2016_tbl1_324948312

Here is the wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_lithium_production

This wiki again shows top 10 Li producing countries

 

[GRALISTAIR]

----massive potential for wind and tidal schemes, which would need battery farms to store their excess energy in.

That is the whole point of nukes. Energy density. I will dig out reference after reference for you. Do you know how many hectares of land required for wind power required? Its huge - it has so little energy density. That is why so many are located offshore - the land grab would be horrendous. Nukes have incredible energy and power density.

Tidal power - not a mature technology and would disrupt marine life horrendously and as you say - you have to store in batteries anyway.

 

[cle]

Such a no-brainer for a recession-touched country which is largely post-industrial, to invest in a national scheme for this.

Covers school leavers and up, spreads across all regions, and gives back environmental and economic benefits afterwards, plus immediate highly-skilled and worthwhile employment.

It should just begin rolling, nationwide - starting with the major infills we know about (Bristols, Swansea, Didcot and Kettering up to Doncaster/Notts) - and then existing arms of electrified routes (Aberdeen, Holyhead/Llanduds from Crewe/Runcorn, Penzance, Hull and other ECML routes) - and potentially a national scheme of converting third rail.

I'd like to see Ely fixed, and Ely-Peterborough and Norwich wired.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Such a no-brainer for a recession-touched country which is largely post-industrial, to invest in a national scheme for this.

Covers school leavers and up, spreads across all regions, and gives back environmental and economic benefits afterwards, plus immediate highly-skilled and worthwhile employment.

It should just begin rolling, nationwide - starting with the major infills we know about (Bristols, Swansea, Didcot and Kettering up to Doncaster/Notts) - and then existing arms of electrified routes (Aberdeen, Holyhead/Llanduds from Crewe/Runcorn, Penzance, Hull and other ECML routes) - and potentially a national scheme of converting third rail.

I'd like to see Ely fixed, and Ely-Peterborough and Norwich wired.

Totally agree - you could almost justify Ely-Peterborough on diversionary route ability alone - but as part of the full F2N scheme a very valuable start.

 

[Domh245]

Well that is news to me.
Not even in the top 10 - the article quotes lithium countries by production
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/List-of-countries-by-lithium-production-in-2016_tbl1_324948312

Here is the wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_lithium_production

This wiki again shows top 10 Li producing countries

To be fair, we haven't started mining it yet! That said, mining it would involve digging up plenty of the picturesque bits of Cornwall!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

No long-lasting hazardous waste that can't be recycled from them too.

Well I beg to differ. Lithium -Polymer - not so sure. Lithium Cobalt - well cobalt is toxic and found only in certain parts of the world.

 

[Bald Rick]

you could almost justify Ely-Peterborough on diversionary route ability alone

You really couldn’t!

 

[Mikey C]

To be fair, we haven't started mining it yet! That said, mining it would involve digging up plenty of the picturesque bits of Cornwall!

That map suggests that the Lithium deposits are nearly all away from the scenic areas!

The area near St Austell is scarred with China Clay pits already

 

[JamesT]

I believe that we imported so much uranium for our weapons program that we have no need to import any for nuclear power plants.

Reading https://www.diis.dk/files/media/publications/import/extra/rp2014-02_uranium_uk_cve-mfl_web.pdf that doesn’t appear to be true. We import tons of the stuff every year to keep our reactors going.

 

[cle]

You really couldn’t!

I was thinking in terms of electric services to the Midlands/North from Stansted/Cambridge once HS2 opened. And from Norwich on the other arm - with possible Norwich to Kings Cross as an option. And freight of course.

Not sure you'd get the bi-hourly Ipswich on the priority list too soon though.

 

[themiller]

That is the whole point of nukes. Energy density. I will dig out reference after reference for you. Do you know how many hectares of land required for wind power required? Its huge - it has so little energy density. That is why so many are located offshore - the land grab would be horrendous. Nukes have incredible energy and power density.

Tidal power - not a mature technology and would disrupt marine life horrendously and as you say - you have to store in batteries anyway.

That's right - and wrong(ish). The land around terrestrial wind turbines can still be used for agriculture whilst the land take for nuclear power stations ignores the Sellafield and Drigg sites as well as the future MLWR which would be required for recycling of spent fuel and waste storage.
Tidal power production doesn't have to be stored in batteries any more than any other generating technology. I did some research for my MSc which showed that tidal range installations around the Irish sea can complement a large Severn Estuary barrage to give almost constantly level power. The tides are so dependable that tidal range could provide around 10% of our baseload requirement.

 

[Class 170101]

And from Norwich on the other arm - with possible Norwich to Kings Cross as an option. And freight of course.

I wish you luck with that as has been discussed on the Wisbeach to March thread (now moved elsewhere) getting path south of Cambridge will be nil and it will have to be part of another service, the fastest of which is the Kings Cross to Kings Lynn service service which would have to split at Ely.

However there are many demands upon that split at Ely if its ever considered viable.

 

[Class 170101]

That's right - and wrong(ish). The land around terrestrial wind turbines can still be used for agriculture whilst the land take for nuclear power stations ignores the Sellafield and Drigg sites as well as the future MLWR which would be required for recycling of spent fuel and waste storage.
Tidal power production doesn't have to be stored in batteries any more than any other generating technology. I did some research for my MSc which showed that tidal range installations around the Irish sea can complement a large Severn Estuary barrage to give almost constantly level power. The tides are so dependable that tidal range could provide around 10% of our baseload requirement.

I guess the problem with tidal power is whilst it happens twice a day it doesn't happen conistently in anyone place to coincide with peak demand everyday so whilst it might be high tide at 17:00 at Hull today it won't be next week how does that help align power generation with power consumption and peak demand.

 

[edwin_m]

I guess the problem with tidal power is whilst it happens twice a day it doesn't happen conistently in anyone place to coincide with peak demand everyday so whilst it might be high tide at 17:00 at Hull today it won't be next week how does that help align power generation with power consumption and peak demand.

@themiller has explained that effectively if several of these are built in the right places, when one can't generate because there is no tidal current there will be one somewhere else that can pick up the slack (no pun intended). The problem of production not aligning with demand is shared by many other power sources not just renewables, and is why more batteries or other energy storage are needed. Battery cars will help - most people will charge theirs off-peak or overnight and there could also be arrangements to "buy back" some of the charge in the battery if the grid needs it and the owner doesn't. Hydrogen could also play a part - it could be generated by electrolysis at off-peak times and either used to fuel vehicles or even fed into fuel cells to boost the supply at peak times.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The land around terrestrial wind turbines can still be used for agriculture ———
I did some research for my MSc which showed that tidal range installations around the Irish sea can complement a large Severn Estuary barrage to give almost constantly level power. The tides are so dependable that tidal range could provide around 10% of our baseload requirement.

yes I was thinking that you could even mount solar panels on the wind turbine masts possibly eventually and with cows or sheep grazing you could boost the land use efficiency,

On your other point 10% from tidal is not too shabby.

 

[mr_jrt]

Ultimately, the trick is just to have good storage capacity to soak up excesses, then it doesn't matter if the tide isn't playign ball, or the wind isn't blowing the right way, or it's not sunny. Doesn't even have to be nasty chemical battery storage - if we had the spare land you just pump water into reservoirs using the excess and generate hydro power during peak loadings, or you build batteries of underground pressure vessels that you pressurise water, steam or some such into the same way. I've heard molten salt is an option too. Limitless options.

There's also the benefits that can come from decentralising the power grid by sticking solar panels on people's homes and offices and pairing them with small local powerwall batteries like the off-gridders use.

 

[class26]

Having just watched the Channel 5 Scenic Railway programme this evening an interesting question is posed.
It was set in Finland and travelled from Helsinki north to Oulu then on to Rovaniemi, finishing beyond the arctic circle in the small town of Kemijarvi.
Now this set me thinking
The population of Rovaniemi and Inverness are almost identical at around 70,000
From Rovaniemi a single track line runs north to the town of Kemijarvi with a population of just 7,500
Not dissimilar to that of Thurso
The line running north from Rovaniemi is single track but here`s where the difference ends.

This line is fully electrified with modern rolling stock.
How come the Finns can do this yet we think it would be a total waste of money ? I wonder how the Finns work out their business case for electrification ?
Any thoughts?

 

[Energy]

Having just watched the Channel 5 Scenic Railway programme this evening an interesting question is posed.
It was set in Finland and travelled from Helsinki north to Oulu then on to Rovaniemi, finishing beyond the arctic circle in the small town of Kemijarvi.
Now this set me thinking
The population of Rovaniemi and Inverness are almost identical at around 70,000
From Rovaniemi a single track line runs north to the town of Kemijarvi with a population of just 7,500
Not dissimilar to that of Thurso
The line running north from Rovaniemi is single track but here`s where the difference ends.

This line is fully electrified with modern rolling stock.
How come the Finns can do this yet we think it would be a total waste of money ? I wonder how the Finns work out their business case for electrification ?
Any thoughts?

Many countries are like the Finns with this, the example I use is Switzerland as it is 100% electrified while still looking beautiful which is the other thing usually brought up.

 

[Bald Rick]

This line is fully electrified with modern rolling stock.
How come the Finns can do this yet we think it would be a total waste of money ? I wonder how the Finns work out their business case for electrification ?
Any thoughts?

Two thoughts from a one minute google.

1) Rovaniemi and Kemijärvi are about 54 miles apart by rail. Inverness to Thurso is well over 150
2) Kemijärvi is home to what looks like one of the largest timber products factories in Scandinavia, presumably seeing significant inbound and outbound freight traffic. Thurso / Wick has very little freight.

 

[Bald Rick]

@themiller has explained that effectively if several of these are built in the right places, when one can't generate because there is no tidal current there will be one somewhere else that can pick up the slack (no pun intended). The problem of production not aligning with demand is shared by many other power sources not just renewables, and is why more batteries or other energy storage are needed. Battery cars will help - most people will charge theirs off-peak or overnight and there could also be arrangements to "buy back" some of the charge in the battery if the grid needs it and the owner doesn't. Hydrogen could also play a part - it could be generated by electrolysis at off-peak times and either used to fuel vehicles or even fed into fuel cells to boost the supply at peak times.

There’s some really interesting work going on about demand side response, which sees major consumers (factories, supermarkets and big hotels in particular) reduce their electricity requirements for very short periods when demand peaks at times when the wind isn’t blowing. On reflection, this explains why half the lights were out and the heating was off at my local Morrisons back one evening in January. See this link for more info. https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/re.../demand-side-response-to-the-rescue?_k=xd5kof

yes I was thinking that you could even mount solar panels on the wind turbine masts possibly eventually and with cows or sheep grazing you could boost the land use efficiency,

On your other point 10% from tidal is not too shabby.

A typical offshore wind turbine being installed now has a capacity of 8MW or more, with a ‘capacity factor’ of nudging 40%, ie an average of 3.2MW through the year. The most solar PV you could get on a mast of this size would be about 100kW but with an effective capacity factor of about 3-4% at best due to the angles they would have to be at. O shore masts are substantially smaller. Overall you would be lucky to get more than 0.1% of the energy produced by the turbine. Costly.

Far better to have the PV panels in a place where’s they can produce the most electricity, for lowest cost, where onward transmission is less of an issue (or not even required). Ie on roofs, and/or in fields in southern England.

Re tidal. 10% isn’t too shabby, but it would be a very very expensive method of delivering it with substantial ecological issues. Hinkley Point C will, alone, provide nearly 10% of U.K. electricity. Sizewell C another 10%.

Finally, cattle already graze or crops grow beneath many onshore wind farms. Although it’s a challenge on the offshore versions.

 

[Class 170101]

@themiller has explained that effectively if several of these are built in the right places, when one can't generate because there is no tidal current there will be one somewhere else that can pick up the slack (no pun intended). The problem of production not aligning with demand is shared by many other power sources not just renewables, and is why more batteries or other energy storage are needed. Battery cars will help - most people will charge theirs off-peak or overnight and there could also be arrangements to "buy back" some of the charge in the battery if the grid needs it and the owner doesn't. Hydrogen could also play a part - it could be generated by electrolysis at off-peak times and either used to fuel vehicles or even fed into fuel cells to boost the supply at peak times.

Got to bear in mind transmission losses. I guess if the right place was in Cornwall its hardly likely to be providing power to Newcastle as the transmission losses wouldn't make moving the electricity from the SW to the NE.

 

[furnessvale]

I guess the problem with tidal power is whilst it happens twice a day it doesn't happen conistently in anyone place to coincide with peak demand everyday so whilst it might be high tide at 17:00 at Hull today it won't be next week how does that help align power generation with power consumption and peak demand.

If the tidal power is being harnessed in the form of a barrier, eg Severn, There is no requirement for the barrier to be opened with the tide if the timings are inconvenient. Water could be held back and then released at a time more appropriate to power requirements. It would not work fully 24 hours round the clock but I should imagine the tide time could be shuffled a couple of hours each way by this method to maximise potential.

 

[class26]

Two thoughts from a one minute google.

1) Rovaniemi and Kemijärvi are about 54 miles apart by rail. Inverness to Thurso is well over 150
2) Kemijärvi is home to what looks like one of the largest timber products factories in Scandinavia, presumably seeing significant inbound and outbound freight traffic. Thurso / Wick has very little freight.

I appreciate the difference in distance and the fact that there could well be more freight on the Finnish line so how about using the Kyle of Lochalsh line as an example? It is much closer in distance . I appreciate that doesn`t answer the freight question but if we were to presume half a dozen freight trains a day there is no way here it would be electrified for that level of service (would it ?
By the way , the programme is really worth watching, far more about the railway (even a cab ride towards the end) than the Portillo railway programmes

 

[Bald Rick]

I appreciate the difference in distance and the fact that there could well be more freight on the Finnish line so how about using the Kyle of Lochalsh line as an example? It is much closer in distance . I appreciate that doesn`t answer the freight question but if we were to presume half a dozen freight trains a day there is no way here it would be electrified for that level of service (would it ?
By the way , the programme is really worth watching, far more about the railway (even a cab ride towards the end) than the Portillo railway programmes

The freight issue is the big one. Look at the size of the yards at Kemijärvi. Also, Finland generates more than 10% of its electricity from wood - there will be a lot of timber trains!

 

[class26]

The freight issue is the big one. Look at the size of the yards at Kemijärvi. Also, Finland generates more than 10% of its electricity from wood - there will be a lot of timber trains!

Fair point.
Interest though that on the programme they said the line was slated in for closure in 2005 (it was diesel at that time) so the freight couldn`t have been that large otherwise closure wouldn`t have been on the agenda.
Trains did actually stop for 2 years but the people of Kemijarvi started protests and they won not only a reprieve but electrification ! I just can`t see that here.

 

[edwin_m]

Fair point.
Interest though that on the programme they said the line was slated in for closure in 2005 (it was diesel at that time) so the freight couldn`t have been that large otherwise closure wouldn`t have been on the agenda.
Trains did actually stop for 2 years but the people of Kemijarvi started protests and they won not only a reprieve but electrification ! I just can`t see that here.

We did have Briech, not only kept open but totally re-built for electrification and its Parliamentary service upgraded to a frequent one. As far as I recall there wasn't even a local pressure group pushing for that.