New 4-tier system for England

[Skimpot flyer]

Gatwick Express isn't currently running so I would guess it was a Southern branded Brighton - Victoria service using Gatwick Express stock.

Gatwick Airport is tier 2

Indeed, yes, it was

 

[Mag_seven]

Restricted to "essential" travel only.

If that's the case then car journeys must also be similarly restricted - why should people with cars be allowed to undertake "non essential journeys" when those who don't have cars cannot?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Queenie is on at 3pm. Wouldn't put it past him to scheduule a news conference at the same time. (Or starting at 10 past just when her message finishes)

There now follows a BBC news Special, entitled ‘The Message’ featuring Grandmaster Johnson & The Foolish Five

“
Discarded masks, everywhere

People p!sing on the rules, you know they just don’t care

Can’t take the tiers, the House has no voice

Got no plan to get us out, I guess you have no choice”

 

[bengley]

If that's the case then car journeys must also be similarly restricted - why should people with cars be allowed to undertake "non essential journeys" when those who don't have cars cannot?

In tier 4, they are.

 

[43096]

Can't see him stopping it outright, would go down like a lead balloon for those essential workers who have to use the train/bus to get to work etc

It would be far cheaper to shut the railway and taxi key workers.

 

[Philip]

It seems the North Yorkshire Police are being over strict, handing out fines at the weekend to people who came from tier 3 to drink there. I don't approve of people going out getting drunk in the present circumstances, but AFAIK within England this sort of thing is guidance, not by law.

 

[DustyBin]

It seems the North Yorkshire Police are being over strict, handing out fines at the weekend to people who came from tier 3 to drink there. I don't approve of people going out getting drunk in the present circumstances, but AFAIK within England this sort of thing is guidance, not by law.

I've just seen this on BBC. They were issuing Fixed Penalty Notices, which I suspect were used as not many people would fancy going to court (even though I can't see how they'd not win). They know they can't issue fines, so a very cynical and rather naughty thing to do by North Yorkshire Police in my opinion.

 

[island]

If that's the case then car journeys must also be similarly restricted - why should people with cars be allowed to undertake "non essential journeys" when those who don't have cars cannot?

Because people with cars aren’t liable to infect other people whilst travelling.

To be fair and equitable, there would need to be a ban on travelling in a car with someone not from one’s household or support bubble.

It seems the North Yorkshire Police are being over strict, handing out fines at the weekend to people who came from tier 3 to drink there. I don't approve of people going out getting drunk in the present circumstances, but AFAIK within England this sort of thing is guidance, not by law.

There’s been some pretty acrobatic wording used in a lot of reports and tweets, but the FPNs were not issued for travel in from tier 3 (which isn’t an offence); rather, they were for violations of the rules on gatherings, public drinking, and disorderly conduct.

 

[Ianno87]

It would be far cheaper to shut the railway and taxi key workers.

The logistical problem is that the railway can't just be "switched off" (or rather, if you do, it can't get going again very easily). Keeping the railway running is essential to keeping crew route knowledge, competency etc. maintained. The cost of *that* would be enormous.

I probably is cheaper overall just to keep the railway running throughout.

 

[87 027]

There's an interesting article by a lawyer in the Spectator this week. His view is that while there's no legal ban on non-essential travelling, the new Tier 4 regulations do include a specific power for the police to direct people to return to the place where they live if it is believed that the person has contravened restrictions on movement, and once such a direction has been given, it has effect even if the person doesn't agree.

What does the Tier 4 law on travelling actually say?

As is perhaps inevitable when advance notice is given of a stable door shutting, the response of many in London last night was to head for the railway stations and get out of town whilst they could. The reaction to this has been condemnation. The Health Secretary Matt Hancock described the...

www.spectator.co.uk

What the English regulations don’t do is place any ban on journeys that are not ‘essential’. There is no direct restriction on travel in the regulations, and it is not right to speak of being ‘permitted’ to travel. A restriction is only reached by the indirect route of the ban (for those who live in Tier 4) on leaving or being away from the home ‘without reasonable excuse’. And indeed what might colloquially be regarded as non-essential may be deemed to be reasonable by virtue of coming within one of the 16 categories of excuse.

So, although the deployment of police at railway stations might have the highly beneficial effect of discouraging travel from a viral hotspot, there is no requirement for residents of Tier 4 to only be undertaking ‘essential journeys’, and no lawful way by which travel could be policed on that basis.

However, the new Tier 4 regulations have resurrected from the Lockdown Two regulations a specific power to police constables and support officers (PCSOs), where they ‘consider that a person is outside the place where they are living’ in contravention of the restriction on movement, to ‘direct that person to return to the place where they are living’.

Whilst Messrs Shapps and Hendy (in my view) go further than the law in saying that only ‘essential journeys’ are permitted, if an individual constable’s consideration is that a journey constitutes a breach of restriction on leaving home, and a direction is given, then a debate at that point about whether that direction was right or wrong does not prevent the direction having effect. This is a significant reinforcement of police powers. It could make the sort of distinctions lawyers draw between law and guidance of less practical relevance on the ground.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Given the theories in this afternoon's news it seems to suggest BJ will bring in a third lockdown across the whole of England imminently. I seriously hope not, but I am not holding my breath.

Whatever happens - BJ cannot for the sake of social health and wellbeing keep switching the Country in & out of lockdowns. This has to be the last time he does this.

CJ

 

[Mag_seven]

There's an interesting article by a lawyer in the Spectator this week. His view is that while there's no legal ban on non-essential travelling, the new Tier 4 regulations do include a specific power for the police to direct people to return to the place where they live if it is believed that the person has contravened restrictions on movement, and once such a direction has been given, it has effect even if the person doesn't agree.

If I'm reading this correctly you could be travelling for an entirely legitimate reason (i.e. for one of the excuses for being outside your home as per the regulations) but if the officer concerned does not believe that you are then his view takes precedence over yours?

 

[island]

If I'm reading this correctly you could be travelling for an entirely legitimate reason (i.e. for one of the excuses for being outside your home as per the regulations) but if the officer concerned does not believe that you are then his view takes precedence over yours?

Yes. The test is that the officer considers you are outside the place you are living in contravention of the requirement. Once told to go home, you can be fined, arrested, or prosecuted for failing to comply with the direction – even if the officer’s belief that you do not have a reasonable excuse transpires to be unfounded.

 

[AlistairCowell]

The logistical problem is that the railway can't just be "switched off" (or rather, if you do, it can't get going again very easily). Keeping the railway running is essential to keeping crew route knowledge, competency etc. maintained. The cost of *that* would be enormous.

I probably is cheaper overall just to keep the railway running throughout.

We still had trains running during the first lockdown back in Spring.

 

[87 027]

If I'm reading this correctly you could be travelling for an entirely legitimate reason (i.e. for one of the excuses for being outside your home as per the regulations) but if the officer concerned does not believe that you are then his view takes precedence over yours?

It's unfortunate that the barrister didn't go on to state what might happen in that scenario. I have a highlighted copy of the regulations saved onto my phone and I would find it concerning in the extreme to be stopped and turned back when I go to visit my linked household (aka support bubble).

 

[bramling]

Yes. The test is that the officer considers you are outside the place you are living in contravention of the requirement. Once told to go home, you can be fined, arrested, or prosecuted for failing to comply with the direction – even if the officer’s belief that you do not have a reasonable excuse transpires to be unfounded.

They're *more than welcome* to send me home when I'm on my way to work! I'll happily comply with that.

 

[87 027]

Yes. The test is that the officer considers you are outside the place you are living in contravention of the requirement. Once told to go home, you can be fined, arrested, or prosecuted for failing to comply with the direction – even if the officer’s belief that you do not have a reasonable excuse transpires to be unfounded.

Having had a closer look at the regulations, an offence is only committed if a person fails to comply "without reasonable excuse." Given that there are 16 categories of excuse written into the same regulations, whilst I agree it might get as far as court, I can't see the basis for a conviction if one of the excuses is proven to apply to the facts of the case.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020 (legislation.gov.uk)

9.—(1) A relevant person may take such action as is necessary to enforce any Tier 1 restriction, Tier 2 restriction[F1, Tier 3 restriction or Tier 4] restriction.

(2) A relevant person may give a prohibition notice to a person if the relevant person reasonably believes that—

(a)the person is contravening a restriction imposed by Part 2 or 3 of Schedule 1, Part 2 or 3 of Schedule 2[F2, Part 2 of Schedule 3 or Part 3 of Schedule 3A], and

(b)it is necessary and proportionate to give the prohibition notice for the purpose of preventing that person from continuing to contravene the restriction.

[F3(2A) Where a relevant person considers that a person is outside the place where they are living in contravention of paragraph 1 of Schedule 3A, the relevant person may direct that person to return to the place where they are living.

10.—(1) A person commits an offence if, without reasonable excuse, the person—

(a)contravenes a Tier 1 restriction, a Tier 2 restriction[F1, a Tier 3 restriction or a Tier 4 restriction],

(b)contravenes a requirement imposed, or a direction given, under regulation 9,

(c)fails to comply with a reasonable instruction or a prohibition notice given by a relevant person under regulation 9, or

(d)obstructs any person carrying out a function under these Regulations (including any person who is a relevant person for the purposes of regulation 9).

 

[island]

The word “reasonable” does do some pretty heavy lifting.

 

[philosopher]

It seems the North Yorkshire Police are being over strict, handing out fines at the weekend to people who came from tier 3 to drink there. I don't approve of people going out getting drunk in the present circumstances, but AFAIK within England this sort of thing is guidance, not by law.

From what I understand someone in a tier 3 or even a tier 4 area can go into a lower tier area for any activity that is permitted in their area. So someone living in London (tier 4) can go for a walk alone along the Seven Sisters in East Sussex (Tier 2). This is against the guidelines but it is not illegal.

However they are not allowed to do any activity in that lower tier area that they cannot do where they live. So someone living in tier 3 area and going for a pint and a substantial meal in a tier 2 area is breaking the law.

 

[island]

However they are not allowed to do any activity in that lower tier area that they cannot do where they live. So someone living in tier 3 area and going for a pint and a substantial meal in a tier 2 area is breaking the law.

That isn’t correct. The only restrictions that “follow” you into a lower tier are those around gatherings, so for example someone who lives in Plymouth (tier 2) cannot take a train to Liskeard (tier 1) and there meet a friend indoors. The Plymouth resident is perfectly entitled to order a pint and no more at the first available pub in Liskeard.

 

[Mag_seven]

So someone living in tier 3 area and going for a pint and a substantial meal in a tier 2 area is breaking the law.

Only if they do it with one or more other people. As I read it if you are on your own that is fine:

2) No person living in the Tier 3 area may participate in a gathering outside that area which—

(a)consists of two or more people, and

(b)takes place in a private dwelling or in any indoor space.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020 (legislation.gov.uk)

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The idea of a full national lockdown, either officially or by using Tier 4 by stealth, would only really be vaguely necessary if the rapid increases being seen in London and The South East were being replicated across the country.

But they aren't.

Up here in Tier 3 Yorkshire our rates are still falling every day. Even Bradford has astonished me by getting down to 163 per 100,000 - very low by Bradford standards. They haven't been this low since mid September. And it is still dropping.

If there is a real need to protect us all from the mutant variant then bolster Tier 4 in the areas where it may be necessary- i.e. those parts of Essex, Surrey and areas bordering the current Tier 4 areas which are all still in Tier 2 - despite having, in most cases, far higher rates than Tier 3 areas in Yorkshire!

The south was quite happy to lock us Northerners away in Tier 3 (or previous variants thereof) for months on end when we were far higher than the South East, so now it should be the other way round.

Of course that won't happen.

Hancock and co will come up with some bluff about how us having much lower rates we now need to be on our guard as the nasty mutant is amongst us and we are just waiting for the figures to filter through.

 

[trainophile]

Presumably a positive test can determine which version of Covid is present, otherwise how do they know the new variant is becoming so prolific.

In which case we should be told the figures pertaining to each type rather than just a total for the day/area. Otherwise how can we appreciate the severity of the new strain?

 

[geoffk]

It seems the North Yorkshire Police are being over strict, handing out fines at the weekend to people who came from tier 3 to drink there. I don't approve of people going out getting drunk in the present circumstances, but AFAIK within England this sort of thing is guidance, not by law.

North Yorkshire Police seem to have form in this area. A few weeks ago it was reported that they were turning back drivers from Lancashire at the boundary. There might have been some justification back in the summer if large numbers were heading for the Dales or North Yorkshire Moors, or Scarborough.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The idea of a full national lockdown, either officially or by using Tier 4 by stealth, would only really be vaguely necessary if the rapid increases being seen in London and The South East were being replicated across the country.

But they aren't.

Up here in Tier 3 Yorkshire our rates are still falling every day. Even Bradford has astonished me by getting down to 163 per 100,000 - very low by Bradford standards. They haven't been this low since mid September. And it is still dropping.

If there is a real need to protect us all from the mutant variant then bolster Tier 4 in the areas where it may be necessary- i.e. those parts of Essex, Surrey and areas bordering the current Tier 4 areas which are all still in Tier 2 - despite having, in most cases, far higher rates than Tier 3 areas in Yorkshire!

The south was quite happy to lock us Northerners away in Tier 3 (or previous variants thereof) for months on end when we were far higher than the South East, so now it should be the other way round.

Of course that won't happen.

Hancock and co will come up with some bluff about how us having much lower rates we now need to be on our guard as the nasty mutant is amongst us and we are just waiting for the figures to filter through.

Any faint hope of the North not being moved to tier 4 relies on decisions being made on logic and evidence. So I expect us be moved to tier 4 in the next few days.

I’m resigned to tier 4 but it is tier 5 I’m dreading. Report to your nearest army barracks and face the firing squad. It’s the only humane way to prevent us having a cough for a couple of days.

 

[DustyBin]

The idea of a full national lockdown, either officially or by using Tier 4 by stealth, would only really be vaguely necessary if the rapid increases being seen in London and The South East were being replicated across the country.

But they aren't.

Up here in Tier 3 Yorkshire our rates are still falling every day. Even Bradford has astonished me by getting down to 163 per 100,000 - very low by Bradford standards. They haven't been this low since mid September. And it is still dropping.

If there is a real need to protect us all from the mutant variant then bolster Tier 4 in the areas where it may be necessary- i.e. those parts of Essex, Surrey and areas bordering the current Tier 4 areas which are all still in Tier 2 - despite having, in most cases, far higher rates than Tier 3 areas in Yorkshire!

The south was quite happy to lock us Northerners away in Tier 3 (or previous variants thereof) for months on end when we were far higher than the South East, so now it should be the other way round.

Of course that won't happen.

Hancock and co will come up with some bluff about how us having much lower rates we now need to be on our guard as the nasty mutant is amongst us and we are just waiting for the figures to filter through.

I expect national Tier 4 (aka lockdown) to be announced on the 27th or 28th. I’m not sure when it will actually take effect or how long it will last yet but from what I’ve heard it will be longer than the second lockdown....

 

[Richard Scott]

I expect national Tier 4 (aka lockdown) to be announced on the 27th or 28th. I’m not sure when it will actually take effect or how long it will last yet but from what I’ve heard it will be longer than the second lockdown....

And yet again no scientific evidence behind any of this, just taking number of infections and then going on about this mutation, which even the WHO think is nothing to worry about and that there is a lot of overreaction going on.

 

[Paul_10]

Hopefully all of England gets put into lockdown(and I mean a proper lockdown like March) by Boxing day although it really should be with immediate effect regardless of Xmas, cases are out of control, signs the North West is starting to rise again and I do feel other parts could easily start to rise again. The numbers usually peak on a Wednesday/Thursday so we could hit over 40,000 cases by then.

High chance the death rate will start to rise also given the lag effect. Horrible situation and I'm having my doubts about how well this vaccine will be rolled out so I can't see things getting back to normal by Easter either.

 

[221101 Voyager]

I've accepted this is how life will be for the foreseeable future.

Cases spike, deaths spike, lockdown and repeat.

I mean come on, we are about to be in the same position again for a 3rd time!

 

[Darandio]

Hopefully all of England gets put into lockdown(and I mean a proper lockdown like March) by Boxing day although it really should be with immediate effect regardless of Xmas, cases are out of control, signs the North West is starting to rise again and I do feel other parts could easily start to rise again. The numbers usually peak on a Wednesday/Thursday so we could hit over 40,000 cases by then.

High chance the death rate will start to rise also given the lag effect. Horrible situation and I'm having my doubts about how well this vaccine will be rolled out so I can't see things getting back to normal by Easter either.

So what you are actually hoping for is lives and livelihoods to be completely decimated. Many were lucky to make it out of the first two lockdowns, a third will finish them off. It's beyond belief to me how anyone can hope for this to happen.