new class 450 diagrams??

[aag2110]

So I live very close to Kingston Station, and have noticed on a number of occasions over the past few weeks pairs of 450s operating both in and out of peak hours.
One morning last week as I was going through Vauxhall (about 11am) I also noticed a pair on a service to Dorking via Epsom. Both these routes I travel quite regularly and prior to this I have only ever seen 455's.
Are these diagrammed? or one offs?

 

[hassaanhc]

Diagrammed for a few weeks:

From Monday 19 May for several weeks the following train services will be operated by a blue Class 450 train rather than the usual red Class 455 train while we wait for delivery of our refurbished Class 456 trains;

08:36 Guildford to London Waterloo via Cobham
09:47 London Waterloo to Chessington South
10:39 Chessington South to London Waterloo
11:24 London Waterloo to Dorking
12:35 Dorking to London Waterloo

These trains be run by red trains again as soon as possible.

It is planned for all the services to run as an 8 coach train however as the blue trains are longer than the red trains there are some platform restrictions that apply as listed below.

08:36 Guildford to London Waterloo via Cobham - only the front 4 coaches will open at Cobham, Oxshott and Claygate.
09:47 London Waterloo to Chessington South - only the front 4 coaches will open at Motspur Park.
10:39 Chessington South to London Waterloo - only the front 4 coaches will open at Raynes Park and Motspur Park.
11:24 London Waterloo to Dorking - only the front 4 coaches will open at Motspur Park and Stoneleigh.
12:35 Dorking to London Waterloo - only the front 4 coaches will open at Raynes Park, Motspur Park and Stoneleigh.

http://m.journeycheck.com/southwest...521&webMsg=true&&engWorksPeriod=&serviceTime=
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not sure why one would turn up at Kingston, only if one of the Shepperton via Richmond ones were diverted via Kingston, or pairs of the refurbished 458/5s on their 1000 mile fault-free testing (the Shepperton branch is a favourite for this)

 

[Shrub Hill]

there have been a couple of 450 pairings used to kingston, travelled on one myself two weeks ago. all down to stock shortages.

 

[Matt Taylor]

There'll be platform restrictions at New Malden and Hampton Wick, front 4 only in the Teddington direction.

 

[Feathers44]

As my house backs onto the line between Worcester Park and Stoneleigh, I'm seeing these three times a day at the moment (when I'm not working on a week day).

I haven't checked the timetable for all appearances but these correspond roughly to:

11:24 to Dorking (and return - approx 12:55)
15:24 to Dorking (and return - approx 16:55)
19:24 to Dorking (and return - approx 20:55)

This was consistent for those periods last week when I was at home and again last night at about 21:00.

Edit: And again today, two minutes late (tut!). With a 455 going past behind it to highlight the difference in height between the two.

 

[hassaanhc]

As my house backs onto the line between Worcester Park and Stoneleigh, I'm seeing these three times a day at the moment (when I'm not working on a week day).

I haven't checked the timetable for all appearances but these correspond roughly to:

11:24 to Dorking (and return - approx 12:55)
15:24 to Dorking (and return - approx 16:55)
19:24 to Dorking (and return - approx 20:55)

This was consistent for those periods last week when I was at home and again last night at about 21:00.

Edit: And again today, two minutes late (tut!). With a 455 going past behind it to highlight the difference in height between the two.

The following diagram (list of services operated by the same train) has been using 450s since the new timetable in June:
08:36 Guildford to London Waterloo via Cobham
09:47 London Waterloo to Chessington South
10:39 Chessington South to London Waterloo
11:24 London Waterloo to Dorking
12:35 Dorking to London Waterloo

Then last week they said the following diagram was going to use 450s until further notice.
2J35 1336 London Waterloo to Hampton Court
2J42 1424 Hampton Court to London Waterloo
2D41 1509 London Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom
2G52 1637 Guildford to London Waterloo via Cobham
2M51 1746 London Waterloo to Chessington South
2M58 1839 Chessington South to London Waterloo
1D57 1924 London Waterloo to Dorking
1D66 2035 Dorking to London Waterloo
2J67 2136 London Waterloo to Hampton Court
2J74 2224 Hampton Court to London Waterloo
1D73 2309 London Waterloo to Dorking

 

[Feathers44]

OK, thanks.

That doesn't quite fit what I thought I saw on Friday but generally it's close enough that my timings must have been off (I was insulating the loft at the time so wasn't wholly concentrating on what was passing).

I'm assuming that without the platform extensions at places like Worcester Park, these units might not have fitted the stations as easily?

 

[hassaanhc]

OK, thanks.

That doesn't quite fit what I thought I saw on Friday but generally it's close enough that my timings must have been off (I was insulating the loft at the time so wasn't wholly concentrating on what was passing).

I'm assuming that without the platform extensions at places like Worcester Park, these units might not have fitted the stations as easily?

Yes, at many platforms in this area the 450s were too long for the platforms but the 455s did fit. Although Worcester Park was fine, the following had problems: Raynes Park (P1 only), Motspur Park, Stoneleigh, Claygate, Oxshott, Cobham, New Malden, Norbiton, Hampton Wick. Possibly others too. On the Windsor lines there are still stations with that being the case: Isleworth, Sunnymeads, Datchet.

 

[The_Ding]

There are a couple of reasons why you are seeing and travelling in 450s on suburban routes (Chessington, Dorking, Guildford, Shepperton). This is due to the 455 refurbishment plan to have 455s ready for 10 car services in the future so there are stock shortages and therefore 450s have to be used. 450s are also being used as testing trains to test the new Automatic Selective Door Opening (ASDO) beacons to which I drove last Sunday (10/08). Although 450 have been diagrammed has passenger services in morning & evening peaks for as long as I have been at SWT

 

[Feathers44]

Ah yes, the refurb struck me as a possible reason this morning.

The most stunning sighting was of a 12 car 450 combination going past towards Epsom a few weeks ago. I don't believe it was scheduled to pass but on that day there was a signal failure at Waterloo and a lightning strike near Surbiton somewhere and the whole network was in disarray.

I assumed at the time it was a Guildford via Woking diverted via Epsom but if anyone happens to know for sure...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

At 12 cars it would surely have to be a diverted Portsmouth working?

 

[Feathers44]

Ah, OK. Thanks.

All I see is 455s all day and I'm not well enough acquainted with the different uses of 450s to have even guessed at that. I hadn't actually considered anything going beyond Guildford!

 

[hassaanhc]

Ah, OK. Thanks.

All I see is 455s all day and I'm not well enough acquainted with the different uses of 450s to have even guessed at that. I hadn't actually considered anything going beyond Guildford!

12 cars get used on
Portsmouth Harbour (mix of fast and stopping via Guildford, and stopping via Basingstoke).
Basingstoke stopping
Poole stopping
Alton

Out of those only the Portsmouth Harbour via Guildford or Alton services could reasonably have diverted via Epsom, although the Alton ones would have to cross several tracks when reversing at Guildford.

 

[TEW]

The Alton train would actually have to perform a shunt procedure at Guildford from one side of the station to the other. It is not possible to come in from the Effingham Junction direction and leave directly to the Ash direction at Guildford. For that reason it is very unusual for Alton trains to be diverted via Effingham Junction.

 

[hassaanhc]

The Alton train would actually have to perform a shunt procedure at Guildford from one side of the station to the other. It is not possible to come in from the Effingham Junction direction and leave directly to the Ash direction at Guildford. For that reason it is very unusual for Alton trains to be diverted via Effingham Junction.

Oh ok, thanks for clearing that

 

[Feathers44]

Thank you oh knowledgable ones!

I can see I'm going to learn a lot through my membership here.

 

[Deepgreen]

I've seen a few Dorking workings and one Shepperton one recently that have used 450s (the Shepperton one was the 1712 from Waterloo which was a single unit - that didn't go down well!). The platform length restrictions seem a bit odd, as, for example, Stoneleigh, Motspur Park and Raynes Park have had their ten car extensions completed for months now.

 

[hassaanhc]

I've seen a few Dorking workings and one Shepperton one recently that have used 450s (the Shepperton one was the 1712 from Waterloo which was a single unit - that didn't go down well!). The platform length restrictions seem a bit odd, as, for example, Stoneleigh, Motspur Park and Raynes Park have had their ten car extensions completed for months now.

The platform length restrictions no longer apply.

 

[Feathers44]

I guess it's nice to be getting some use out of all that work even if we won't get actual 10 car trains any time soon.

Out of interest, at those platforms marked for different car lengths, where do the 450s stop now? Have they moved the 8-car markers to allow for 450s as well as 455s now that the platforms are long enough?

(If this deviation should be in a different thread, let me know and I'll remove it from here)

 

[nw1]

The following diagram (list of services operated by the same train) has been using 450s since the new timetable in June:
08:36 Guildford to London Waterloo via Cobham
09:47 London Waterloo to Chessington South
10:39 Chessington South to London Waterloo
11:24 London Waterloo to Dorking
12:35 Dorking to London Waterloo

Then last week they said the following diagram was going to use 450s until further notice.
2J35 1336 London Waterloo to Hampton Court
2J42 1424 Hampton Court to London Waterloo
2D41 1509 London Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom
2G52 1637 Guildford to London Waterloo via Cobham
2M51 1746 London Waterloo to Chessington South
2M58 1839 Chessington South to London Waterloo
1D57 1924 London Waterloo to Dorking
1D66 2035 Dorking to London Waterloo
2J67 2136 London Waterloo to Hampton Court
2J74 2224 Hampton Court to London Waterloo
1D73 2309 London Waterloo to Dorking

Presumably these are actually the same diagram? I say that as the first one seems to end halfway through the day and the second one begins soon after. Also the 2035 Dorking then forms the 2136 to Hampton Court so (naively) one might expect the 1235 Dorking to form the 1336 Hampton Court, though I am aware that diagrams particularly in SWT-land are not as predictable as that. It's notable how this diagram seems to cover the majority of suburban routes on the main (not Richmond) lines!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Fratton crews do not sign Epsom so a Portsmouth train diverting via Epsom is super rare, it can only happen if a Waterloo crew is on board.

In respect of short platforms it should be pointed out that Isleworth is so tight that an 8 455 cannot be worked from the rear cab as it isn't on the platform and there is no platform ramp-as I found to my cost one day on 2R15!

 

[The_Ding]

I guess it's nice to be getting some use out of all that work even if we won't get actual 10 car trains any time soon.

Out of interest, at those platforms marked for different car lengths, where do the 450s stop now? Have they moved the 8-car markers to allow for 450s as well as 455s now that the platforms are long enough?

(If this deviation should be in a different thread, let me know and I'll remove it from here)

450s will stop at the 8, 8-10 or S car marks as now most if not all stations/platform on suburban routes are 10 car platforms so all stop car marks would have been moved anyway, especially the "New Line" when 8 car 455s were tight before the extensions. The only places I know that have different stop car marks for 455/450 is Isleworth & Datchet

 

[hassaanhc]

Presumably these are actually the same diagram? I say that as the first one seems to end halfway through the day and the second one begins soon after. Also the 2035 Dorking then forms the 2136 to Hampton Court so (naively) one might expect the 1235 Dorking to form the 1336 Hampton Court, though I am aware that diagrams particularly in SWT-land are not as predictable as that. It's notable how this diagram seems to cover the majority of suburban routes on the main (not Richmond) lines!

I don't know, the first set they showed on their Journeycheck page between June and July, while the rest seem to have come now. The stock for the second ones appears to come empty from the depot.

 

[TEW]

Looks like it's all one diagram from Realtime Trains. Been 450008+450086 on it the past two days.

 

[hassaanhc]

Presumably these are actually the same diagram? I say that as the first one seems to end halfway through the day and the second one begins soon after. Also the 2035 Dorking then forms the 2136 to Hampton Court so (naively) one might expect the 1235 Dorking to form the 1336 Hampton Court, though I am aware that diagrams particularly in SWT-land are not as predictable as that. It's notable how this diagram seems to cover the majority of suburban routes on the main (not Richmond) lines!

Looks like it's all one diagram from Realtime Trains. Been 450008+450086 on it the past two days.

I've done a bit of looking around, and it turns out you are indeed correct They are one and the same diagram, what muddied the waters was a STP ECS move for 04-08 August, numbered 5J35 and 1310 from Wimbledon Park Depot to Waterloo. The 1235 Dorking-Waterloo comes into the same platform that the 1336 Waterloo-Hampton Court depart from.

So they ARE one diagram

 

[455driver]

Fratton crews do not sign Epsom so a Portsmouth train diverting via Epsom is super rare, it can only happen if a Waterloo crew is on board.

Or a Guildford crew!

 

[antharro]

12 cars get used on
...
Poole stopping

Does this split at Bournemouth/Southampton or run 12 to Poole?

 

[hassaanhc]

Does this split at Bournemouth/Southampton or run 12 to Poole?

No idea, sorry, just recall seeing it pass from a distance at Clapham Junction.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does this split at Bournemouth/Southampton or run 12 to Poole?

The only 12 car 'Poole' trains I can find in the CWNs (from last year) seem to split at Southampton in the down direction to form an 8 car to Poole at 1030 with the rear portion becoming an ECS route learner to Guildford; and in the afternoon a 4 car up train from Poole has 8 cars added at Southampton to form the 1555 departure.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Just looking at Poole on Google Earth, a 12-car train might cause havoc with the level crossing in the Weymouth-bound direction. It depends on the location of the track circuits that detect the train