New Cross Gate to Gatwick: Fare mystery

[TJG]

Apologies if this is only a mystery to me!
I'm trying to work out the best fare for a season ticket (weekly, monthly or annual without travelcard but covering both Southern and FCC) from New Cross Gate to Gatwick. It seems cheaper to buy a ticket from london bridge to Gatwick. Here is the problem. Staff at new cross gate say you cannot use the london bridge to Gatwick ticket, unless you start your journey at london bridge. Staff at brockley say you can start anywhere en route from london bridge to gatwick. Who is right? The mystery is why is the London bridge ticket cheaper.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You can start or end a journey at any point along a permitted route with many ticket types, including season tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

The staff at New Cross Gate [[stn]NXG[/stn]] are wrong. The staff at Brockley are right.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/season_tickets/season_ticket_conditions.html

....You can use your Season Ticket up to and including its expiry date for any number of journeys between the stations and/or within the zone(s) shown on it at any time of day. It may be used at intermediate stations, and on any permitted route, unless a route or any other restrictions are specified on the ticket. Details are available where these tickets are issued....

I would recommend writing a letter to London Overground, I would be happy to proof read it.

I am not at all surprised that staff at NXG are incorrect. Having used the station myself, I found the ticket clerk who was there at the time to have woefully inadequate knowledge.

Other members of the forum have experienced extremely poor customer service from un-knowledgeable London Overground staff.

I would also write to Southern, as it is their trains who you are catching and inform them that an agent acting on their behalf is giving out inaccurate information and asking if they can make arrangements within the industry to ensure that their customers are not misled by agents acting on their behalf.

 

[soil]

LBG-GTW is £60.40
NXG-GTW is £69.10, not via London

I think the fare difference comes down fare setters. GTW has different fares for LBG, VIC, and London Terminals. By buying from LBG you get an FCC fare, which is lower than the general London Terminals fare set by Southern.

From NXG you get the more expensive Southern fare, since they operate the direct train from there.

You can save another pound or two with a Selhurst - Gatwick season, which is valid from New Cross Gate (or from London Bridge via New Cross Gate) to Gatwick. £54.90

This is also set by Southern, but the fare is lower because it's further out, but the complexity of the rail network means you can go via London Bridge anyway.....

 

[yorkie]

You can save another pound or two with a Selhurst - Gatwick station, which is valid from New Cross Gate (or from London Bridge via New Cross Gate) to Gatwick. £54.90

This is also set by Southern, but the fare is lower because it's further out, but the complexity of the rail network means you can go via London Bridge anyway.....

This will not be hassle-free commute, and as another forum member found out, the likely result is that some revenue staff will confiscate the ticket for investigation. So only do this if you want to spend much time corresponding with the relevant TOCs when their staff fail to understand the Routeing Guide.

There are major problems with several members of LO staff failing to know basic conditions, there is virtually no chance of them understanding the Routeing Guide. They won't let you in the barriers with that ticket, it will be a major inconvenience to assert your right to use it!

Not recommended by me!

 

[soil]

Printouts to bring:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/SRS/GTW/tomorrow/1115/dep?via=London_Bridge
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/SRS/GTW/tomorrow/1115/dep?via=New_Cross_Gate

 

[bb21]

Printouts to bring:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/SRS/GTW/tomorrow/1115/dep?via=London_Bridge
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/SRS/GTW/tomorrow/1115/dep?via=New_Cross_Gate

Even if you bring printouts with you, I doubt the OP would want to have an argument with gateline staff twice every day.

 

[soil]

I dunno, you'd wear them down eventually.

 

[johnnycache]

I work for Southern

I've had a look at the fares and they are a bit strange and i think we need to review them

All prices standard class weekly season

New Cross Gate Gatwick Airport £69.10 not via London
New Cross Gate Gatwick Airport £87.90 Any Permitted Cross London
(apart from being overpriced there shouldn't be cross London markers on point to point seasons)
Brockley to Gatwick Airport same as New Cross Gate
Honor Oak Park to Gatwick Airport same as New Cross Gate
Forest Hill to Gatwick Airport same as New Cross Gate
Sydenham to Gatwick Airport £61.60 not via London, no fare via London
Norwood Junction to Gatwick Airport same as Sydenham
East Croydon to Gatwick Airport £54.90 Any Permitted
London Bridge Gatwick Bridge £54.60 Southern only
London Bridge Gatwick Airport £60.00 FCC only
London Bridge Gatwick Airport £60.40 Not Gatwick Express
London Victoria Gatwick Airport £67.20 Any Permitted
London Terminals Gatwick Airport £72.40 Any Permitted

The confusing fares structure is a result of competition between FCC and Southern between London and Gatwick and in particular Southern offers low fares between London Bridge and Gatwick Airport which reflects the two rather slow trains per hour it operates most of the day.

In the next Franchise where Southern/FCC will be merged this should all get simpler

You will also notice the rather strange Not Gatwick Express fare from London Bridge which is actually set by FCC - this allows travel on both operators and for 40p above the FCC only fare looks to be good value for travel from any station out as far as Norwood Junction

As stated above a ticket from London Bridge to Gatwick Airport is valid at any intermediate station on any valid route unless restricted to certain TOCs in which case not valid where they don't stop - so there is no issue about New Cross Gate (unless you had a FCC only ticket)

 

[soil]

(apart from being overpriced there shouldn't be cross London markers on point to point seasons)

why's that?

 

[yorkie]

Because they want people to buy Travelcards instead.

There are some cross-London marker Seasons but if they're spotted by pricing managers or ATOC they will be removed.

 

[soil]

I see.

In this case a New Cross Gate - Gatwick season does not in fact have route LONDON, although it is possible to go via London on map LB, so it makes sense that there is no 'cross London' marking, since you shouldn't be able to connect by tube anyway.

In another case I noticed, there is a season ticket with permitted route LONDON (as well as a mapped route) that lacks the 'cross London' marker. I assume it is nonetheless valid via London, absence of the marker not withstanding?

 

[yorkie]

Yes, of course, by definition it has to be.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The confusing fares structure is a result of competition between FCC and Southern between London and Gatwick and in particular Southern offers low fares between London Bridge and Gatwick Airport which reflects the two rather slow trains per hour it operates most of the day.

I think part of the confusion is also because of the way some East London line stations have been added to the same fares cluster as New Cross Gate - see here on BR Fares. E.g. from Canda Water to Gatwick with the Jubilee line to London Bridge and then with FCC might be quite a reasonable route - so the +ANY PERMITTED fares could be useful there. I think they may have been added very recently.

 

[johnnycache]

There is no agreement between TOCs and TfL for cross-London transfer by Underground for season tickets (except on what are called inter-available routes). Quite often seasons are put on separate flows with routeings like London not Underground to make this clear. As suggested above Travelcards are required for journeys involving the Underground.

 

[TJG]

Thank you all for your replies. I think I give up on the Selhurst saving. I have left a message with Southern, though and will update everyone on their reply. Regarding the London Bridge to Gatwick option, this seems the obvious one to pursue.

JohnyCache: Thank you for setting out the various ticket option. Very useful. You say: "As stated above a ticket from London Bridge to Gatwick Airport is valid at any intermediate station on any valid route unless restricted to certain TOCs in which case not valid where they don't stop - so there is no issue about New Cross Gate (unless you had a FCC only ticket"

Assuming I buy a London Bridge to Gatwick ticket for both FCC and Suthern, is it right that there is also no issue about starting/stopping/breaking a journey at say Brockley or Norwood Junction? Say in the mornings I get a train from Brockley to East Croydon, change there and get a train to Gatwick. Or I get a train from Brockley to to Norwood Junction with a further change at East Croydon. Given both Brockely and Norwood Junction are intermediate station between London Bridge and Gatwick, can I get an train from/to these stations?

 

[maniacmartin]

You can change trains at any intermediate station onto any TOC's services that are on the routes permitted by your ticket, unless your ticket says it is restricted to a certain TOC. You can break your journey/start short/finish short as many times as you like.

My understanding is that even if you got a ticket from a station where FCC do not call, you can still change onto an FCC train at an intermediate station (e.g. at East Croydon if you so wished). However, as johnnycache says, you can't break your journey at a station not served by the TOC in question if your ticket is limited to a specific TOC.

 

[island]

You cannot use an FCC ONLY London Bridge to Gatwick Airport to join a train at New Cross Gate, as no FCC trains call there. No need to further complicate it.

 

[Paul Kelly]

you can't break your journey at a station not served by the TOC in question if your ticket is limited to a specific TOC.

Unless you jump out the window as the train speeds through, I suppose...

 

[MichaelAMW]

Unless you jump out the window as the train speeds through, I suppose...

Good idea - except you'd waste all the saving with your twice daily fines for contravening byelaw 10, parts 3 & 4!!