New direct rail service to link Edinburgh and Wales "for the first time"

[dk1]

Sounds good until one of them is delayed

One will just get left behind with passengers changing to next available.

 

[Phillipimo]

I just had a look on a journey planner for the northbound trip. Except for people who really don't like changing trains it doesn't seem that useful as a Cardiff to Edinburgh train.
If you wait for 8 minutes at Cardiff you can take a TfW train to Crewe, have a comfortable 39 min connection to an Avanti service, to arrive in Edinburgh 50 minutes before the direct XC.
Even from Gloucester it suggests an 18 min change at Birmingham to arrive on the same earlier train.
Southbound the direct is XC is quicker and seems more attractive.

I note that this is how they have achieved their 'new' service:
Take an existing Cardiff to Nottingham train.
Convert from 170 to Voyager.
Cut back from Nottingham to Birmingham.
Attach to existing Penzance to Edinburgh train.

So it actually leads to a 2 hour gap in Cardiff to Nottingham trains (filled between Birmingham and Nottingham but with no connection from Cardiff).

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Northbound it's the 09:45 calling at Chepstow, Worcestershire Parkway (no Ashchurch), Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Chesterfield, Alnmouth and Berwick as well as the normal Cheltenham – Leeds – Edinburgh stops. Southbound it's the 13:07 from Edinburgh calling at Berwick, Alnmouth and Burton-on-Trent and only calling at Cheltenham and Gloucester between Birmingham and Newport.

The southbound service (1V64) seems the obvious choice for that. What I can’t understand is why northbound it will be in place of an existing 170 CDF-NOT (1M60)? Surely that will be a problem, trying to diagram the 170 around that?

 

[RailWonderer]

The novelty of long through services with abysmal reliability (because it will be) lives on. Chaning as long as connections are reliable and well timed is more important than a long direct service with less capacity because it has to split.

 

[A S Leib]

The novelty of long through services with abysmal reliability (because it will be) lives on. Chaning as long as connections are reliable and well timed is more important than a long direct service with less capacity because it has to split.

The 13:07 Edinburgh to Gloucester currently gets to Gloucester on time 5% of the time, within 5 minutes 39% and 61% within 15 minutes. The 12:03 Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh is on time 23% of the time, within 5 minutes 45% of the time and 64% within 15 minutes (the 12:07 via Preston's better but not massively).

 

[swt_passenger]

The southbound service (1V64) seems the obvious choice for that. What I can’t understand is why northbound it will be in place of an existing 170 CDF-NOT (1M60)? Surely that will be a problem, trying to diagram the 170 around that?

The 170 for 1D60, the 1149 Birmingham NS to Nottingham arrives empty from Tysley depot. Doesn’t allow for a change, but it shouldn’t be difficult to diagram, should it?

 

[Starmill]

The 170 for 1D60, the 1149 Birmingham NS to Nottingham arrives empty from Tysley depot. Doesn’t allow for a change, but it shouldn’t be difficult to diagram, should it?

Perhaps what @FlybeDash8Q400 was wondering at was what happens to the current 0600 from Nottingham? Presumably there's to be an odd gap now between 0724 when that service terminates at Birmingham New Street and 1149 when it again resumes. One can only guess at this stage, but perhaps a more efficient solution has been found where those are part of different diagrams.

For completeness, the new 0649 Derby to Cardiff Central doesn't have a service correspondingly between Derby and Birmingham New Street in the current timetable. However, in December 2019 this service did used to run starting back at Sheffield at 0559 and continuing after Birmingham New Street at 0733 to Reading. I will wait with great interest to see if the 0733 from Birmingham New Street and 0945 from Reading are restored next year.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The 170 for 1D60, the 1149 Birmingham NS to Nottingham arrives empty from Tysley depot. Doesn’t allow for a change, but it shouldn’t be difficult to diagram, should it?

I think it’s a bit patchy in places but overall does seem to work. Ultimately biggest priority for XC is getting the Voyager back to Central Rivers.

A new 1G02 NOT-BHM replaces the existing 1V03 NOT-CDF, the latter now starting from Derby with the Voyager for the Cardiff-Edinburgh.

 

[43074]

Perhaps what @FlybeDash8Q400 was wondering at was what happens to the current 0600 from Nottingham? Presumably there's to be an odd gap now between 0724 when that service terminates at Birmingham New Street and 1149 when it again resumes. One can only guess at this stage, but perhaps a more efficient solution has been found where those are part of different diagrams.

For completeness, the new 0649 Derby to Cardiff Central doesn't have a service correspondingly between Derby and Birmingham New Street in the current timetable. However, in December 2019 this service did used to run starting back at Sheffield at 0559 and continuing after Birmingham New Street at 0733 to Reading. I will wait with great interest to see if the 0733 from Birmingham New Street and 0945 from Reading are restored next year.

Looking in Real Time Trains the 0749 Birmingham to Nottingham now forms off the 0600 Nottingham to Birmingham instead of a unit from Tyseley, and in turn the 1149 Birmingham to Nottingham is formed off an ECS from Tyseley. Would be interesting to know if XC have diagrammed anything for the 170 before the 1149 as theoretically it could be used for strengthening something else, but on the whole I think it's quite an efficient way of diagramming it.

 

[A S Leib]

I'm probably missing a few, but once a day / very limited services withdrawn since Covid:

• Chiltern between Stourbridge and Kidderminster
• CrossCountry to Guildford and Newquay
• EMR services north of Sheffield / Doncaster to Leeds / Scarborough
• All Eurostar services except Lille, Brussels, Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Paris (with Brexit being a factor as well)
• Thameslink to Littlehampton
• Southern to Guildford and Wimbledon (and Milton Keynes, as a more frequent withdrawn service)
• GWR to Pembroke Dock (I'm fairly sure didn't come back this summer?) and Brighton
• LNER to Glasgow and the non-Inverness Stirling service (from this December)
• The through Northern / ScotRail Newcastle – Dumfries – Glasgow service
• SWR between Weymouth and Yeovil and between Westbury and Bristol Temple Meads

I can't think of any similar services which have been introduced since Covid, although Cardiff – Edinburgh's completely following existing CrossCountry services when a lot of those were outside their TOC's area. The closest post-Covid one I can think of is London to Middlesbrough, and I think that's partly daily because Middlesbrough's platform 3 isn't finished yet.

Edit: GWR serving Axminster daily's another new infrequent service.

 

[robert thomas]

I'm probably missing a few, but once a day / very limited services withdrawn since Covid:

• Chiltern between Stourbridge and Kidderminster
• CrossCountry to Guildford and Newquay
• EMR services north of Sheffield / Doncaster to Leeds / Scarborough
• All Eurostar services except Lille, Brussels, Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Paris (with Brexit being a factor as well)
• Thameslink to Littlehampton
• Southern to Guildford and Wimbledon (and Milton Keynes, as a more frequent withdrawn service)
• GWR to Pembroke Dock (I'm fairly sure didn't come back this summer?) and Brighton
• LNER to Glasgow and the non-Inverness Stirling service (from this December)
• The through Northern / ScotRail Newcastle – Dumfries – Glasgow service
• SWR between Weymouth and Yeovil and between Westbury and Bristol Temple Meads

I can't think of any similar services which have been introduced since Covid, although Cardiff – Edinburgh's completely following existing CrossCountry services when a lot of those were outside their TOC's area. The closest post-Covid one I can think of is London to Middlesbrough, and I think that's partly daily because Middlesbrough's platform 3 isn't finished yet.

Edit: GWR serving Axminster daily's another new infrequent service.

Pembroke Dock did operate this year

 

[Matt Taylor]

In the mid 1980s there was a 1S61 0735 Cardiff to Glasgow/Edinburgh which was called 'The Principality'.

 

[hexagon789]

In the mid 1980s there was a 1S61 0735 Cardiff to Glasgow/Edinburgh which was called 'The Principality'.

See Posts #4, 5 and 6

 

[sh24]

A lot of passengers prefer a slower direct service rather than faster with the perceived hassle of changing and risk of missed connections.

 

[Starmill]

Will the timings be notably faster? I’d be quite surprised.

In the southbound direction it's a full hour slower than the change at Crewe is. The direct train leaves at 1307, arriving 2007. The following journey leaves at 1452, after a change at Crewe arriving at Cardiff Central at 2054.

You'd have to really really value staying in your place for 7 hours to pass up an opportunity to get much cheaper tickets and save 58 minutes.

Of course turning this on its head, it's nice to see a through service from Cardiff to Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle.

 

[Deepgreen]

For anybody wanting to do this end to end, use a ticket splitting website such as trainsplit.com - even a simple split at BHM saves £100 (the through fare on most days is £219.80 Standard / £359.60 in 1st )

Assuming this is all above board, the fact that it is even an option says a huge amount about our rail system today!

 

[A S Leib]

A lot of passengers prefer a slower direct service rather than faster with the perceived hassle of changing and risk of missed connections.

Of course Swansea passengers would have to change at least once anyway and Cardiff will likely be the largest flow, but the fact that the arrival from Swansea is due to get to Cardiff Central seven minutes before the Edinburgh train's due to leave (and a twelve minute connection going to Swansea), at a station with a minimum connection time of seven minutes, means that I suspect Crewe will stay the best option for Swansea – Edinburgh.

 

[Deepgreen]

So no, the headline is wrong, and the expression "due to start rolling out" is also wrong - it suggests a gradual introduction of the service, whereas the new service will be introduced in full from the start.
Very lazy journalism - common these days.

 

[GoneSouth]

Northbound it's the 09:45 calling at Chepstow, Worcestershire Parkway (no Ashchurch), Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Chesterfield, Alnmouth and Berwick as well as the normal Cheltenham – Leeds – Edinburgh stops. Southbound it's the 13:07 from Edinburgh calling at Berwick, Alnmouth and Burton-on-Trent and only calling at Cheltenham and Gloucester between Birmingham and Newport.

Presumably the northbound calls at Cheltenham and Gloucester as well?

 

[A S Leib]

Presumably the northbound calls at Cheltenham and Gloucester as well?

Yes.

 

[2T57]

A lot of passengers prefer a slower direct service rather than faster with the perceived hassle of changing and risk of missed connections.

Agreed, so a real shame that this new service calls at Worcestershire Parkway northbound, but not southbound

 

[GoneSouth]

I read one

Agreed, so a real shame that this new service calls at Worcestershire Parkway northbound, but not southbound

Does that mean there’s now a 2 hour gap at WOP heading south or is the southbound one of the regular Plymouth timings

 

[hexagon789]

I read one

Does that mean there’s now a 2 hour gap at WOP heading south or is the southbound one of the regular Plymouth timings

Appears there's now a gap at 1858

 

[A S Leib]

I read one

Does that mean there’s now a 2 hour gap at WOP heading south or is the southbound one of the regular Plymouth timings

The southbound leaves Birmingham New Street at 18:12 and there's an 18:30 to Gloucester ex Nottingham. It gets to Cheltenham at 19:12 with 19:40 being the following Cardiff service.

 

[geoffk]

My 1959 Bradshaw shows 10.05 am Glasgow Central to Birmingham New St with through carriages to Plymouth.

This left Carlisle at 12.24 pm and was non-stop to Crewe. There was also a portion from Edinburgh. The WR timetable says "TC Glasgow Central and Liverpool Lime St. to Plymouth (arr. 12.40 am)." I assume the Plymouth portion came off at Crewe and worked south via the North & West route attached to the Liverpool train while the main train went to Birmingham. Trying to work out from Bradshaw which are through trains and which are connections is not easy, the print is very small and this particular train appears in about six tables!

The North & West route runs through Wales but I've not checked to see if it stopped there (most likely at Pontypool Road).

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I just had a look on a journey planner for the northbound trip. Except for people who really don't like changing trains it doesn't seem that useful as a Cardiff to Edinburgh train.

It's all about choice, I guess.

If, for instance, you're putting an elderly relative on a train to be met the other end, you would chose the direct service, even if it took longer. The same would go for wheelchair users, students at the beginning of the academic year, people traveling with bikes, etc etc.

There are are a lot of passengers who would prefer not to change for very practical reasons. It's not a case of "people who really don't like changing trains". It's a case of people for whom changing trains is a problem.

 

[GoneSouth]

The southbound leaves Birmingham New Street at 18:12 and there's an 18:30 to Gloucester ex Nottingham. It gets to Cheltenham at 19:12 with 19:40 being the following Cardiff service.

Ah ok thanks. I’ve been on a service that’s split at Gloucester a few times, I think it’s the same one, where currently a portion continues to Bristol and the south west and the other portion goes home to the depot. I guess it now lives in Cardiff for the night and picks up the northbound service the following morning.

 

[Zerothebrake!]

The Cardiff portion will go ecs to Barton Hill for servicing.

 

[2T57]

It's all about choice, I guess.

If, for instance, you're putting an elderly relative on a train to be met the other end, you would chose the direct service, even if it took longer. The same would go for wheelchair users, students at the beginning of the academic year, people traveling with bikes, etc etc.

There are are a lot of passengers who would prefer not to change for very practical reasons. It's not a case of "people who really don't like changing trains". It's a case of people for whom changing trains is a problem.

Agreed, that's why it's ridiculous for the new Cardiff-Edinburgh service to call at Worcestershire Parkway northbound but not southbound

 

[Butts]

One advantage would be the lack of Air Competition as surprisingly no one fly's direct from Edinburgh or Glasgow to Cardiff unless I've missed it.

Flybe used to hammer down in about an hour or less for £50 in Embraer's before the pandemic - I used the service from Glasgow to Cardiff quite regularly for a few months in 2019.