New diveunder line to the east of Reading station

[charlee]

Can't seem to find a the reading improvements thread. However I have a question regarding the work on the London side.

2 weeks ago I was travelling on the north downs line from north camp, and on approach into reading they have constructed a single line which branches off from the north downs lines, and goes under a bridge on which the main lines run. What is this line for? It's been bugging me as to what it's for, and can't seem to find any info on it. Anyone know?

 

[JamesRowden]

It is an underpass (allowing services from the northern platforms to access the Wokingham line without crossing paths of the mainline) that has been out of service but is going to be brought back into service as part of the improvements.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can't seem to find a the reading improvements thread. However I have a question regarding the work on the London side.

2 weeks ago I was travelling on the north downs line from north camp, and on approach into reading they have constructed a single line which branches off from the north downs lines, and goes under a bridge on which the main lines run. What is this line for? It's been bugging me as to what it's for, and can't seem to find any info on it. Anyone know?

It allows a through connection between the north side of the station (Platforms 13, 14 and 15 only) and the Southern lines. It's main use (from the summer onwards) will be to allow for the units used on FGW North Downs lines services to access the route to/from the new depot. They will also be able to run from/to the new relief platforms (as above) at start and end of service, and of course the eastbound XC Guildford extension can run through that way.

The various 'open train times' websites are already showing various ECS moves through the underpass after Easter; for instance there's an early XC ECS from Eastleigh to Reading that runs through P7, onto the Southern line then reverses through the underpass to reach P14. However the main part of the day sees the North Downs servcies operating from P4/5/6 as normal.

The route has been designed to allow for future DC or AC electrification (yet to be decided) and for this reason the track in the three new platforms are fitted with sleepers that can carry third rail. It also allows for the possibility of regular services across Reading from the Didcot direction towards Wokingham etc, but as far as I can find there are none planned - presumably because the more recently approved electrification of the various GW routes leaves the 'North Downs' route as a bit of a 'diesel island'.

 

[30909]

It allows a through connection between the north side of the station (Platforms 13, 14 and 15 only) and the Southern lines. It's main use (from the summer onwards) will be to allow for the units used on FGW North Downs lines services to access the route to/from the new depot. They will also be able to run from/to the new relief platforms (as above) at start and end of service, and of course the eastbound XC Guildford extension can run through that way.

The various 'open train times' websites are already showing various ECS moves through the underpass after Easter; for instance there's an early XC ECS from Eastleigh to Reading that runs through P7, onto the Southern line then reverses through the underpass to reach P14. However the main part of the day sees the North Downs servcies operating from P4/5/6 as normal.

The route has been designed to allow for future DC or AC electrification (yet to be decided) and for this reason the track in the three new platforms are fitted with sleepers that can carry third rail. It also allows for the possibility of regular services across Reading from the Didcot direction towards Wokingham etc, but as far as I can find there are none planned - presumably because the more recently approved electrification of the various GW routes leaves the 'North Downs' route as a bit of a 'diesel island'.

I know I’m a luddite, but since the renaissance of the North Downs Line it has seemed somewhat bizarre that simple and relatively inexpensive third rail electrification has not been planned to fill the gaps between Reigate and Shalford Junction, Ash and Wokingham. Traffic to Gatwick/Redhill and Reading could then be either passed to SW Trains with stock serviced and stabled at Farnham and Guildford respectively and Southern could extend their Reigate “shuttle” at least to Guildford. The alternate semi fast could run through as SW Trains and the stoppers could be split between Southern and SW Trains at Guildford with a cross platform change. This would then not compromise the utility of the reinstated underpass and release some much needed DMUs for GW to use elsewhere. OK so where will the third rail stock come from I hear you cry, that’s one for other to think about!

 

[Zoe]

I doubt there will ever been any extension to the thrid rail network considering the current policy of conversion to OHLE.

 

[tsr]

I know I’m a luddite, but since the renaissance of the North Downs Line it has seemed somewhat bizarre that simple and relatively inexpensive third rail electrification has not been planned to fill the gaps between Reigate and Shalford Junction, Ash and Wokingham. Traffic to Gatwick/Redhill and Reading could then be either passed to SW Trains with stock serviced and stabled at Farnham and Guildford respectively and Southern could extend their Reigate “shuttle” at least to Guildford. The alternate semi fast could run through as SW Trains and the stoppers could be split between Southern and SW Trains at Guildford with a cross platform change. This would then not compromise the utility of the reinstated underpass and release some much needed DMUs for GW to use elsewhere. OK so where will the third rail stock come from I hear you cry, that’s one for other to think about!

The problem with your plan for the Southern service is not just that there are probably insufficient EMUs. The daytime Redhill-Reigate service is incorporated into a service to/from London Bridge and, at some times during the peaks, London Victoria. Some of these diagrams are more complex than you would imagine and adding an extra leg of the journey to/from Guildford could cause added problems with punctuality, flexibility and so on.

The North Downs Line is also is prone to some quite poor rail conditions (this is part of the reason for the padding at some points), which 3rd rail stock is especially prone to struggling with. Turbos & Turbo Expresses do also have problems, but they don't seem to be quite so bad. Another issue with 3rd rail electrification is the number of footpath/bridleway crossings. In the event of an incident, electrical current discharged through the rails could cause hazards to pedestrians and livestock, even if the 3rd rail itself is not close by.

I have a feeling that some platforms may need lengthening for any future 5-coach 377s or even 458s which could end up on the line.

Lastly, as above, the addition of further 3rd rail lines is very much against current policy and is rather in doubt. I wouldn't exactly want to see OHLE on the NDL - parts of it are rural and exposed, and come perilously close to trees. Several level crossings also carry high vehicles (the A217 crossing, for example, which has no viable alternative route, and is an M23 diversion route), so wires could not be installed over them.

 

[Muzer]

It allows a through connection between the north side of the station (Platforms 13, 14 and 15 only) and the Southern lines. It's main use (from the summer onwards) will be to allow for the units used on FGW North Downs lines services to access the route to/from the new depot. They will also be able to run from/to the new relief platforms (as above) at start and end of service, and of course the eastbound XC Guildford extension can run through that way.

The various 'open train times' websites are already showing various ECS moves through the underpass after Easter; for instance there's an early XC ECS from Eastleigh to Reading that runs through P7, onto the Southern line then reverses through the underpass to reach P14. However the main part of the day sees the North Downs servcies operating from P4/5/6 as normal.

The route has been designed to allow for future DC or AC electrification (yet to be decided) and for this reason the track in the three new platforms are fitted with sleepers that can carry third rail. It also allows for the possibility of regular services across Reading from the Didcot direction towards Wokingham etc, but as far as I can find there are none planned - presumably because the more recently approved electrification of the various GW routes leaves the 'North Downs' route as a bit of a 'diesel island'.

Why are there third-rail-capable sleepers at Andover? Were there ever (presumably scrapped) murmurs of dc electrification of the west of England main line, or did they just happen to have a surplus of those sleepers?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why are there third-rail-capable sleepers at Andover? Were there ever (presumably scrapped) murmurs of dc electrification of the west of England main line, or did they just happen to have a surplus of those sleepers?

It's not the only area they've been used, there are some on the North Downs route (around Ash IIRC) fitted only a few years ago. I'm told they are completely interchangeable with the equivalent size without the inserts, so I'd expect they probably will be used if they are all that's available at the time.

I don't think it means there's a secret electrification project going on...

 

[455driver]

re sleepers suitable for 3rd rail-

It's not the only area they've been used, there are some on the North Downs route (around Ash IIRC)

I hope so as the (electric) Guildford to Ascot service goes through Ash!

I think you mean North Camp, next time I am over that way I will have a look.

 

[David Goddard]

The North Downs Line is also is prone to some quite poor rail conditions (this is part of the reason for the padding at some points), which 3rd rail stock is especially prone to struggling with. Turbos & Turbo Expresses do also have problems, but they don't seem to be quite so bad. Another issue with 3rd rail electrification is the number of footpath/bridleway crossings. In the event of an incident, electrical current discharged through the rails could cause hazards to pedestrians and livestock, even if the 3rd rail itself is not close by.

I have a feeling that some platforms may need lengthening for any future 5-coach 377s or even 458s which could end up on the line.

Lastly, as above, the addition of further 3rd rail lines is very much against current policy and is rather in doubt. I wouldn't exactly want to see OHLE on the NDL - parts of it are rural and exposed, and come perilously close to trees. Several level crossings also carry high vehicles (the A217 crossing, for example, which has no viable alternative route, and is an M23 diversion route), so wires could not be installed over them.

These are very valid points, but nontheless I can not see any of them being a real obstacle to future electrification.
I think that that if the route was equipped, by whatever means, then the most appropriate move would be for it to be run by SWT with Desiros. Yes these would have to come from somewhere but with appropriate upward/downward cascades elsewhere, in conjunction with new stock which has been talked about, provision of eight units should not be too much of a problem.

 

[Chris125]

I suspect the main issue for NDL electrification is the lack of a sufficiently good business case to make it a priority, arguably much of the reason it stands out is because it's surrounded by other electrified lines.

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

re sleepers suitable for 3rd rail-

I hope so as the (electric) Guildford to Ascot service goes through Ash!

I think you mean North Camp, next time I am over that way I will have a look.

I tried to cover myself with 'around' as in 'somewhere in that general area'!

 

[30909]

The problem with your plan for the Southern service is not just that there are probably insufficient EMUs. The daytime Redhill-Reigate service is incorporated into a service to/from London Bridge and, at some times during the peaks, London Victoria. Some of these diagrams are more complex than you would imagine and adding an extra leg of the journey to/from Guildford could cause added problems with punctuality, flexibility and so on.

The North Downs Line is also is prone to some quite poor rail conditions (this is part of the reason for the padding at some points), which 3rd rail stock is especially prone to struggling with. Turbos & Turbo Expresses do also have problems, but they don't seem to be quite so bad. Another issue with 3rd rail electrification is the number of footpath/bridleway crossings. In the event of an incident, electrical current discharged through the rails could cause hazards to pedestrians and livestock, even if the 3rd rail itself is not close by.

I have a feeling that some platforms may need lengthening for any future 5-coach 377s or even 458s which could end up on the line.

Lastly, as above, the addition of further 3rd rail lines is very much against current policy and is rather in doubt. I wouldn't exactly want to see OHLE on the NDL - parts of it are rural and exposed, and come perilously close to trees. Several level crossings also carry high vehicles (the A217 crossing, for example, which has no viable alternative route, and is an M23 diversion route), so wires could not be installed over them.

I apologise if this is getting off the OP’s topic but although I may have predicted, in calling myself a Luddite, that posters would refer to the unfashionable third rail versus OHLE my point is economic functionality. In other threads there is frustrated speculation that GW does not have enough “quality” 3 car DMUs to enhance their other services, meanwhile they have allocated several to trundle back and forth through third rail territory with almost a third of the distance over electrified lines.
The valid points made here could be refuted by comparison with the Portsmouth Direct which, as you will know, south of Guildford is almost a tree lined tunnel with numerous level crossing, footpaths etc. It too has potential for poor rail conditions and the “notorious” Haslemere bank at 4 miles of 1:80 compares with that to Gomshall.
The business case to electrify could be proven when you look at Redhill to Tonbridge with intermediate stops all generating lower passenger numbers compared with many throughout the NDL. Obviously a decision has to be made about Dorking West with just 22 passengers in 2010-11 but considering Betchworth, Gomshall & Chilworth only have a basic off peak two hourly service their usage is quite good especially when many users will travel further to adjacent stations to get a more frequent service.

 

[JamesRowden]

The business case to electrify could be proven when you look at Redhill to Tonbridge with intermediate stops all generating lower passenger numbers compared with many throughout the NDL. Obviously a decision has to be made about Dorking West with just 22 passengers in 2010-11 but considering Betchworth, Gomshall & Chilworth only have a basic off peak two hourly service their usage is quite good especially when many users will travel further to adjacent stations to get a more frequent service.

Redhill to Tonbridge was electrified to allow for Eurostar diversions and is still used as a diversion by Charing Cross to Hastings services when the line between Tonbridge and Sevenoaks is closed for engineering works or when there is serious disruption.

 

[Surreyman]

I apologise if this is getting off the OP’s topic but although I may have predicted, in calling myself a Luddite, that posters would refer to the unfashionable third rail versus OHLE my point is economic functionality. In other threads there is frustrated speculation that GW does not have enough “quality” 3 car DMUs to enhance their other services, meanwhile they have allocated several to trundle back and forth through third rail territory with almost a third of the distance over electrified lines.
The valid points made here could be refuted by comparison with the Portsmouth Direct which, as you will know, south of Guildford is almost a tree lined tunnel with numerous level crossing, footpaths etc. It too has potential for poor rail conditions and the “notorious” Haslemere bank at 4 miles of 1:80 compares with that to Gomshall.
The business case to electrify could be proven when you look at Redhill to Tonbridge with intermediate stops all generating lower passenger numbers compared with many throughout the NDL. Obviously a decision has to be made about Dorking West with just 22 passengers in 2010-11 but considering Betchworth, Gomshall & Chilworth only have a basic off peak two hourly service their usage is quite good especially when many users will travel further to adjacent stations to get a more frequent service.

The Network Rail Electrification Plan 2009 makes plain that this line is not a priority for Electrification.
When the extra platform at Gatwick is completed, a half hour service Reading to Gatwick is promised.
As a regular traveler on this line, 3 car DMUs are the right size.
if Electrification comes to this line, it is a long way down the priority list!

 

[OliverS]

... Obviously a decision has to be made about Dorking West with just 22 passengers in 2010-11 but considering Betchworth, Gomshall & Chilworth only have a basic off peak two hourly service their usage is quite good especially when many users will travel further to adjacent stations to get a more frequent service.

I'm probably one of those Dorking West people. Of course the lack of a working ticket machine, as well as the Dorking Stations group probably doesn't help the numbers, but whenever I've used Dorking West I have never been the only person getting on or off the train.

 

[30909]

Interestingly according to Wikipedia in 2009-10 there were 1810 users, previous year 104all other years back to 2004-5 sub 100 users, what was special about 09-10 I wonder? I remember when with an active goods and coal yard, adjacent Laundry, and nearby Gas Works and Agricultural Merchants together with proximity to the town centre made the then Dorking Town much busier than Deepdene.

 

[OliverS]

Interestingly according to Wikipedia in 2009-10 there were 1810 users, previous year 104all other years back to 2004-5 sub 100 users, what was special about 09-10 I wonder? I remember when with an active goods and coal yard, adjacent Laundry, and nearby Gas Works and Agricultural Merchants together with proximity to the town centre made the then Dorking Town much busier than Deepdene.

They probably used a different measurement means in 09-10. Do we have any information on how the data was collected? If it is ticket sales and the ticket machine actually worked that year then I can imagine that nothing was actually different, they just got a more accurate count.

1810 users is still only 9 per working day. I think I have seen that many getting on a single train. It is, as you say, far more convenient for the town than Deepdene.

 

[johnb]

Are tix from Dorking sold in some complicated multiple way, so that most NDL pax are erroneously ascribed to Deepdene unless some particular magical ticket acquisition form is used? (e.g. if all season tickets are Dorking Stations and hence attributed to Deepdene)

 

[The Ham]

The Network Rail Electrification Plan 2009 makes plain that this line is not a priority for Electrification.
When the extra platform at Gatwick is completed, a half hour service Reading to Gatwick is promised.
As a regular traveler on this line, 3 car DMUs are the right size.
if Electrification comes to this line, it is a long way down the priority list!

Although if a half hourly service to Gatwick does become a reality and with the possibility of a link to the west for Heathrow there could be more of a business case to electrify the line.

Although it doesn't go to London, it is a fairly busy line; which if there were 4 coach EMU's rather than 3 coach DMU's it would probably see further growth.

Although in it's own right it maybe of fairly low priority it could gain over other lines as it is partly electrified anyway and would free up some useful DMU's to be used elsewhere on the network.

 

[Surreyman]

Although if a half hourly service to Gatwick does become a reality and with the possibility of a link to the west for Heathrow there could be more of a business case to electrify the line.

Although it doesn't go to London, it is a fairly busy line; which if there were 4 coach EMU's rather than 3 coach DMU's it would probably see further growth.

Although in it's own right it maybe of fairly low priority it could gain over other lines as it is partly electrified anyway and would free up some useful DMU's to be used elsewhere on the network.

I am in favour of 100% electrification a la Switerzerland!
Even though I live on the line and would love to see 450s running the regular service, there are a long list of much greater priorities around the UK i.e Cross-Country, West midlands suburban, Greater Manchester & West Yorkshire suburban, all Trans Pennine etc etc.
One day maybe.

 

[The Ham]

I am in favour of 100% electrification a la Switerzerland!
Even though I live on the line and would love to see 450s running the regular service, there are a long list of much greater priorities around the UK i.e Cross-Country, West midlands suburban, Greater Manchester & West Yorkshire suburban, all Trans Pennine etc etc.
One day maybe.

Cross-Country (XC) will be, over it's core, mostly electrified by the end of CP5. Leaving only a few small gaps before travel from Southern Scotland to Birmingham (via either wast or west coast) and onto Poole will be possible. On it's south east routes it will only be between Reading and Guildford that would not be OHL electrified (which makes the NDL electrification a higher priority as otherwise there would be DMU's running under electrified lines for the vast majority of the route). To the south west, northern Scotland and the route across from Cardiff to Stansted will not be electrified, however these are likely to be longer term projects as they will require a lot of miles of electrification.

By using the dive under at Reading, there could be a good case to provide more XC services along the NDL to Gatwick from the rest of the country as it could relieve pressure at Gatwick by removing some "local" flights and/or providing a useful link if flights get diverted to/from Manchester or Birmingham to get passengers where they need to be. This further enhances the business case for electrification.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw it listed to be electrified in CP6 or CP7 (2019-2029).

 

[30909]

Cross-Country (XC) will be, over it's core, mostly electrified by the end of CP5. Leaving only a few small gaps before travel from Southern Scotland to Birmingham (via either wast or west coast) and onto Poole will be possible. On it's south east routes it will only be between Reading and Guildford that would not be OHL electrified (which makes the NDL electrification a higher priority as otherwise there would be DMU's running under electrified lines for the vast majority of the route). To the south west, northern Scotland and the route across from Cardiff to Stansted will not be electrified, however these are likely to be longer term projects as they will require a lot of miles of electrification.

By using the dive under at Reading, there could be a good case to provide more XC services along the NDL to Gatwick from the rest of the country as it could relieve pressure at Gatwick by removing some "local" flights and/or providing a useful link if flights get diverted to/from Manchester or Birmingham to get passengers where they need to be. This further enhances the business case for electrification.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw it listed to be electrified in CP6 or CP7 (2019-2029).

Interesting thought but OHLE to Guildford or Third Rail, I assume in your example Third Rail? Back to my original points of “economic functionality” a major physical and cost obstacle to OHLE installation are Chalk and Sand tunnels south of Guildford both notoriously unstable geologically, though the general lack of over-bridges does reduce the amount of gauge enhancement but level crossings on major routes such as Reigate A217 will have OHLE implications as previously mentioned.

 

[button_boxer]

On it's south east routes it will only be between Reading and Guildford that would not be OHL electrified (which makes the NDL electrification a higher priority as otherwise there would be DMU's running under electrified lines for the vast majority of the route).

Call me cynical but I suspect it's far more likely that the Guildford service would simply be cut back to Reading.

 

[JamesRowden]

Call me cynical but I suspect it's far more likely that the Guildford service would simply be cut back to Reading.

Or rerouted to Heathrow

 

[30909]

Or rerouted to Heathrow

Why be bothered with the Guildford's anyway: just one a day each way and the ECS run to from Easleigh via Fareham & Havant, I suppose it keeps drivers signed for the route for diversions.

 

[L&Y Robert]

It is an underpass (allowing services from the northern platforms to access the Wokingham line without crossing paths of the mainline) that has been out of service but is going to be brought back into service as part of the improvements.

We used to have a service from Banbury - Oxford direct to Gatwick and (I think) Brighton via this underpass.

 

[30907]

We used to have a service from Banbury - Oxford direct to Gatwick and (I think) Brighton via this underpass.

We did until XC was cut back to provide capacity on its core routes, but not through the underpass - I don't think it was ever used for passenger services - the through services went via the double-track spur at Reading New Jn onto the Main lines (which predates the 1965 closure of Reading Southern).

 

[David Goddard]

A little creative thinking back in the "Operation Princess" days could have seen Voyagers running along the North Downs line then through to Tonbridge and Ashford for Eurostar connections, even if just three or four times per day. Sadly this never happened and with AFK now served by just a small handful of Eurostars is unlikely to happen. Once again everyone is forced to go through London, and not round it.

 

[The Ham]

Call me cynical but I suspect it's far more likely that the Guildford service would simply be cut back to Reading.

Or rerouted to Heathrow

Why be bothered with the Guildford's anyway: just one a day each way and the ECS run to from Easleigh via Fareham & Havant, I suppose it keeps drivers signed for the route for diversions.

All valid points, however the point is that with XC as it is at the moment it could help the business case to electrify the line.

Also even if XC services were cut back there could be a case to provide a direct (with reversal at Reading) service between between Heathrow and Gatwick (given the number of coaches which run between both airports), in which case it provides a good case for electrifying the line.

However even as a diversionary route for XC services it would make sense for it to be fairly high up the list of routes to be electrified once the electric spine project is complete.