New Forfar line through Strathmore: would it work?

[tbtc]

We had a thread recently suggesting that services from Edinburgh to Aberdeen avoided Kirkcaldy/ Leuchars/ Perth so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Kinross and Glenfarg...

...now there’s an idea that services from the central belt to Aberdeen avoid Dundee/ Arbroath/ Montrose so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Blairgowrie and Brechin?

There seems to be a Forum obsession with avoiding the biggest place on a route (see also the regularly suggested idea that services from Cardiff to west Wales avoid Swansea, the idea that services from Bradford to Sheffield/ London avoid Leeds, the idea that services from Ayrshire/ Southside to Edinburgh/ Stirlingshire avoid central Glasgow, various ideas about Holyhead to Cardiff services avoiding the large intermediate Chester/ Shrewsbury/ Hereford...).

It’s like Crayonista Hipsters: “my proposed service from Edinburgh to London doesn’t serve the obvious cities en route like Newcastle, that’d be too predictable and mainstream; it serves a village so obscure you won’t have heard of it”

This is one of these examples where the old method of “adding up the population of various towns” doesn’t really work, because if you aren’t providing them with a direct service to the nearest big city (or at least a way of accessing the nearest big city) then heavy rail isn’t going to work.

Maybe there’s a market for a station in Forfar (where Station Park used to be the furthest league football ground from a train station, before Peterhead joined)...

...but surely 90% of any commuter demand from Forfar would be towards Dundee? I *think* there was a monthly “shoppers” bus service from Forfar to Perth (albeit upgraded to weekly in December) back in the good old days of Strathtay Scottish in the 1990s (?), but most demand from Forfar / Kirriemuir etc has always been into Dundee. Putting Forfar back on the rail map is a Pyrrhic victory if it won't mean trains to where the vast majority of people want to travel.

(there’s also the slight contradiction between “we need to build a high speed line to provide faster end-to-end journeys, but I’m going to add up the population of all the villages en route" – even though any “high speed” Glasgow – Aberdeen service is soon going to catch up a local service trundling along stopping at Blairgowrie/ Forfar/ Brechin etc – are you suggesting a four track route to avoid such issues?)

If we can’t provide a decent “turn up and go” frequency on the Perth – Dundee/ Dundee – Arbroath corridors then we shouldn’t be wasting valuable crayons on building new lines that fail to serve the biggest city in the region. Either upgrade the existing infrastructure (which doesn’t ignore Dundee) or find another problem elsewhere in Scotland to focus resources on.

 

[PaulLothian]

... There seems to be a Forum obsession with avoiding the biggest place on a route ...

This is one of these examples where the old method of “adding up the population of various towns” doesn’t really work, because if you aren’t providing them with a direct service to the nearest big city (or at least a way of accessing the nearest big city) then heavy rail isn’t going to work. ...

...but surely 90% of any commuter demand from Forfar would be towards Dundee? Putting Forfar back on the rail map is a Pyrrhic victory if it won't mean trains to where the vast majority of people want to travel.

...(there’s also the slight contradiction between “we need to build a high speed line to provide faster end-to-end journeys, but I’m going to add up the population of all the villages en route" ...

...If we can’t provide a decent “turn up and go” frequency on the Perth – Dundee/ Dundee – Arbroath corridors then we shouldn’t be wasting valuable crayons on building new lines that fail to serve the biggest city in the region. Either upgrade the existing infrastructure (which doesn’t ignore Dundee) or find another problem elsewhere in Scotland to focus resources on.

A very useful reality check - I had been trying to raise the enthusiasm to make the same points!

Strathmore always was a challenge for rail services, because the population is scattered among so many wee towns. This previously required a large set of lightly-used branch-lines, and even when they existed, I gather (from older friends in Perthshire and Angus) that many journeys were quicker by bus*.

Although I agree with many respondents that the original mainline was splendid, that doesn't automatically make it a worthwhile project for reinstatement, in any form. In a world with unlimited financial resources, by all means, but in the world I live in...

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* Edit: or indeed, bicycle!

 

[backontrack]

We had a thread recently suggesting that services from Edinburgh to Aberdeen avoided Kirkcaldy/ Leuchars/ Perth so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Kinross and Glenfarg...

...now there’s an idea that services from the central belt to Aberdeen avoid Dundee/ Arbroath/ Montrose so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Blairgowrie and Brechin?

There seems to be a Forum obsession with avoiding the biggest place on a route (see also the regularly suggested idea that services from Cardiff to west Wales avoid Swansea, the idea that services from Bradford to Sheffield/ London avoid Leeds, the idea that services from Ayrshire/ Southside to Edinburgh/ Stirlingshire avoid central Glasgow, various ideas about Holyhead to Cardiff services avoiding the large intermediate Chester/ Shrewsbury/ Hereford...).

It’s like Crayonista Hipsters: “my proposed service from Edinburgh to London doesn’t serve the obvious cities en route like Newcastle, that’d be too predictable and mainstream; it serves a village so obscure you won’t have heard of it”

This is one of these examples where the old method of “adding up the population of various towns” doesn’t really work, because if you aren’t providing them with a direct service to the nearest big city (or at least a way of accessing the nearest big city) then heavy rail isn’t going to work.

Maybe there’s a market for a station in Forfar (where Station Park used to be the furthest league football ground from a train station, before Peterhead joined)...

...but surely 90% of any commuter demand from Forfar would be towards Dundee? I *think* there was a monthly “shoppers” bus service from Forfar to Perth (albeit upgraded to weekly in December) back in the good old days of Strathtay Scottish in the 1990s (?), but most demand from Forfar / Kirriemuir etc has always been into Dundee. Putting Forfar back on the rail map is a Pyrrhic victory if it won't mean trains to where the vast majority of people want to travel.

(there’s also the slight contradiction between “we need to build a high speed line to provide faster end-to-end journeys, but I’m going to add up the population of all the villages en route" – even though any “high speed” Glasgow – Aberdeen service is soon going to catch up a local service trundling along stopping at Blairgowrie/ Forfar/ Brechin etc – are you suggesting a four track route to avoid such issues?)

If we can’t provide a decent “turn up and go” frequency on the Perth – Dundee/ Dundee – Arbroath corridors then we shouldn’t be wasting valuable crayons on building new lines that fail to serve the biggest city in the region. Either upgrade the existing infrastructure (which doesn’t ignore Dundee) or find another problem elsewhere in Scotland to focus resources on.

Don't bring Glenfarg into this: it's a necessary line to shorten the time taken to get from Inverness to Edinburgh - and it will reconnect Kinross. That's necessary.

As for Forfar, this was a hypothetical thread; I think that the question mark in the thread title shows that. No need to get on your high horse about it. I almost feel like I've suggested Deltics running from Kyle to Brighton via Settle.

Also, I refuse to be classed as a 'hipster'. TBH, a line from Dundee to Forfar would make more sense. I'm just asking others about this theoretical idea.

 

[deltic08]

We had a thread recently suggesting that services from Edinburgh to Aberdeen avoided Kirkcaldy/ Leuchars/ Perth so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Kinross and Glenfarg...

...now there’s an idea that services from the central belt to Aberdeen avoid Dundee/ Arbroath/ Montrose so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Blairgowrie and Brechin?


This is one of these examples where the old method of “adding up the population of various towns” doesn’t really work, because if you aren’t providing them with a direct service to the nearest big city (or at least a way of accessing the nearest big city) then heavy rail isn’t going to work.

Maybe there’s a market for a station in Forfar (where Station Park used to b(there’s also the slight contradiction between “we need to build a high speed line to provide faster end-to-end journeys, but I’m going to add up the population of all the villages en route" – even though any “high speed” Glasgow – Aberdeen service is soon going to catch up a local service trundling along stopping at Blairgowrie/ Forfar/ Brechin etc – are you suggesting a four track route to avoid such issues?)

If we can’t provide a decent “turn up and go” frequency on the Perth – Dundee/ Dundee – Arbroath corridors then we shouldn’t be wasting valuable crayons on building new lines that fail to serve the biggest city in the region. Either upgrade the existing infrastructure (which doesn’t ignore Dundee) or find another problem elsewhere in Scotland to focus resources on.

Now you are being ridiculous.

No one has suggested stopping at Glenfarg if this route is reinstated and where did not stopping at Perth come from? In your head only.

A local service would not trundle to be caught up by a fast service on a Strathmore route any more than it does now via Dundee. Bonkers suggestion.

There is a formula used in the rail industry. Something like for every five minutes reduction in journey time increases growth by one per cent. Currently every minute reduction in journey time costs NR £80m to achieve and they are happy to spend that as they know it increases growth.

If I wanted to travel from Glasgow to Aberdeen and had the choice of under 2 hours through Strathmore or trundle around a coastal route through Dundee taking 20-30 minutes longer............. In fact I would be rather irritated at being forced to travel via Dundee if my destination was Aberdeen.

As I have already said, why are capacity improvements being considered for additional services if growth is not expected. Spend money on another potentially faster route instead to provide that additional capacity and provide a service to Coupar Angus, Forfar and Brechin.

 

[clc]

The new line via Forfar would cost £500-£700m. What time savings could we achieve by spending £300-£500m between Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen over and above the £200m already committed for Montrose Basin?

 

[najaB]

The new line via Forfar would cost £500-£700m. What time savings could we achieve by spending £300-£500m between Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen over and above the £200m already committed for Montrose Basin?

This. Exactly.

Speeding up Dundee-Aberdeen can provide most of the benefit of a new Strathmore route for Glasgow-Aberdeen travellers, and has the added advantage of (a) serving the main population centre (Dundee - 150k) rather than outlying small towns; and (b) speeds up Edinburgh-Aberdeen journeys as well.

 

[JohnR]

This is one of those lines where it is very hard to say it should have closed in the first place, but also hard to justify re-opening it now.

 

[tbtc]

We had a thread recently suggesting that services from Edinburgh to Aberdeen avoided Kirkcaldy/ Leuchars/ Perth so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Kinross and Glenfarg...

...now there’s an idea that services from the central belt to Aberdeen avoid Dundee/ Arbroath/ Montrose so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Blairgowrie and Brechin?

Now you are being ridiculous.

No one has suggested stopping at Glenfarg if this route is reinstated and where did not stopping at Perth come from? In your head only

As I said, if you want to re-read my post, we had a separate thread recently suggesting that services from Edinburgh to Aberdeen avoided Kirkcaldy/ Leuchars/ Perth (with a new line passing through Glenfarg).

Now we've got a similar thread discussing avoiding Dundee.

Don't bring Glenfarg into this: it's a necessary line to shorten the time taken to get from Inverness to Edinburgh - and it will reconnect Kinross. That's necessary

Is building a line through Kinross "necessary"?

It's a pretty small place - the fact the Kinross-Milnathort conurbation is the biggest place for miles around doesn't alter that. Is it a tenth of the population of Dundee?

As for Forfar, this was a hypothetical thread; I think that the question mark in the thread title shows that

Yes, I got that a thread on an enthusiast Forum about a line through a poorly populated part of the country was only hypothetical.

There is a formula used in the rail industry. Something like for every five minutes reduction in journey time increases growth by one per cent. Currently every minute reduction in journey time costs NR £80m to achieve and they are happy to spend that as they know it increases growth.

If I wanted to travel from Glasgow to Aberdeen and had the choice of under 2 hours through Strathmore or trundle around a coastal route through Dundee taking 20-30 minutes longer............. In fact I would be rather irritated at being forced to travel via Dundee if my destination was Aberdeen.

As I have already said, why are capacity improvements being considered for additional services if growth is not expected. Spend money on another potentially faster route instead to provide that additional capacity and provide a service to Coupar Angus, Forfar and Brechin.

I appreciate that "people prefer faster journeys", that's pretty Strawman.

Instead, consider what reduction in services to Dundee you'd need (if Glasgow - Aberdeen services are going via this new line)? I certainly don't think there are sufficient spare paths from Queen Street to Perth to allow these to be additional services, so some of the services would mean cutting long established links from Dundee (and Arbroath etc) to Glasgow. You'd reduce services from the fourth biggest city in the country to the biggest city in the country (for the sake of serving Coupar Angus)?

I think that Dundonians would be more than "rather irritated"

If most of the demand from Coupar Angus/ Forfar/ Brechin is to Dundee then a railway won't be of as much use to residents as you presume.

"capacity improvements" =/= "reopening a line closed generations ago"

The new line via Forfar would cost £500-£700m. What time savings could we achieve by spending £300-£500m between Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen over and above the £200m already committed for Montrose Basin?

Agreed!

Improve lines to where people are. Tackle the single track section east of Perth, tackle the single track section south of Montrose...

 

[Altnabreac]

As I said, if you want to re-read my post, we had a separate thread recently suggesting that services from Edinburgh to Aberdeen avoided Kirkcaldy/ Leuchars/ Perth (with a new line passing through Glenfarg).

Now we've got a similar thread discussing avoiding Dundee.



Is building a line through Kinross "necessary"?

It's a pretty small place - the fact the Kinross-Milnathort conurbation is the biggest place for miles around doesn't alter that. Is it a tenth of the population of Dundee?

To be fair to the previous Inverkeithing - Perth new line discussion the idea there was to speed up Edinburgh - Perth/Inverness and Edinburgh - Dundee/Aberdeen services. I sincerely doubt any new line would go via Glenfarg or reuse more than very limited sections of the old alignment.

The fast Dundee service already "bypasses" Kirkcaldy and Perth by virtue of not stopping there in the case of Kirkcaldy and not going via Perth so the only place losing out on a fast service would be Leuchars. It would almost certainly maintain a 2tph service to Edinburgh but with more Fife stops in the second service than at present (arguably more useful for some Leuchars passengers).

Any Kinross station would be incidental to the point of a new line and certainly only a marginal contributor to the business case. I'd also imagine only Perth - Edinburgh local services would call at Kinross rather than any Intercity trains.

Bypassing Dundee is a whole different level of illogical suggestion that wouldn't enable a fast Scottish Intercity service like a new Perth Direct line could.

 

[47271]

I'm sure that we'd all like to see A4 Pacifics on Glasgow to Aberdeen trains racing majestically through Strathmore once again 60 years on but it won't happen, with or without the A4s.

To lighten the mood I hope, because we're all getting a bit grumpy here, one thing that does amuse me about this route is the relatively recent construction of a bridge over the A94 at Woodside just west of Coupar Angus, I drive under it quite often, sorry I can't paste the photo directly into the thread.

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=15169

They must've replaced it only a few years before the line closed in 1982, but it looks fit to carry TGVs never mind the occasional Scotrail 158. Maybe they should start there and work outwards in either direction. Let's make Perth to Coupar Angus (pop 2000) Scotland's HS1!

 

[najaB]

The new line via Forfar would cost £500-£700m. What time savings could we achieve by spending £300-£500m between Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen over and above the £200m already committed for Montrose Basin?

Okay people who've forgotten more than I'll ever learn: other than Usan-Montrose, what opportunities are there to shave 20 minutes off Dundee-Aberdeen journey times?

 

[Altnabreac]

Okay people who've forgotten more than I'll ever learn: other than Usan-Montrose, what opportunities are there to shave 20 minutes off Dundee-Aberdeen journey times?

The ones listed in official studies are:
Arbroath station remodelling
Dundee Dock St tunnel improvements
Faster acceleration with HSTs
Less intermediate stops
Electrification

Not sure all those will quite get you 20 minutes savings but will be getting on towards that.

Beyond those I haven't seen anything proposed but sure people have additional ideas.

 

[najaB]

The ones listed in official studies are...

Thanks. I'd heard of some of those, was wondering what ideas had perhaps been shelved as unaffordable but would be cost-effective as compared to a new Strathmore route.

 

[JohnR]

The ones listed in official studies are:
Arbroath station remodelling
Dundee Dock St tunnel improvements
Faster acceleration with HSTs
Less intermediate stops
Electrification

Not sure all those will quite get you 20 minutes savings but will be getting on towards that.

Beyond those I haven't seen anything proposed but sure people have additional ideas.

What remodelling is proposed at Arbroath?

 

[najaB]

What remodelling is proposed at Arbroath?

ISTR that they want to shift the platforms to reduce the severity of the curve.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[backontrack]

We had a thread recently suggesting that services from Edinburgh to Aberdeen avoided Kirkcaldy/ Leuchars/ Perth so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Kinross and Glenfarg...

...now there’s an idea that services from the central belt to Aberdeen avoid Dundee/ Arbroath/ Montrose so that they could instead run on a new line stopping at Blairgowrie and Brechin?.

I notice that you can't help but avoid mentioning the largest place on each line, namely Dunfermline/Halbeath and Forfar.

 

[JohnR]

ISTR that they want to shift the platforms to reduce the severity of the curve.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Well, that sounds nice in theory, but hellishly expensive/impossible in practice. The line to the west is in a deep cutting though a residential part of town. If the idea is to ease the curve to the east of the existing platforms, then it means taking out the Morrisons, raising the height of Guthrie Port/A92 and demolishing a number of commercial units and converted warehouses.

It would probably be cheaper to build a by-pass leaving the line west of Elliot and rejoining at Letham Grange.

 

[Altnabreac]

Well, that sounds nice in theory, but hellishly expensive/impossible in practice. The line to the west is in a deep cutting though a residential part of town. If the idea is to ease the curve to the east of the existing platforms, then it means taking out the Morrisons, raising the height of Guthrie Port/A92 and demolishing a number of commercial units and converted warehouses.

It would probably be cheaper to build a by-pass leaving the line west of Elliot and rejoining at Letham Grange.

As I understand the proposal it is more in the line of demolishing the current northbound island platform and using the space of the derelict platform face to straighten the whole alignment.

At the moment it's a 20mph limit which is fine with most trains stopping. If you are running 1-2tph non stop through Arbroath even improving the through speed to 40 or 50 mph would have a significant benefit at a relatively low cost.

It's not proposing any major demolition or rerouting just using the existing railway owned land better.