New Go-op train service between Swindon, Taunton and Weston-super-Mare approved by ORR

[Killingworth]

I think you overlooked my first sentence- the point was that quoting service provision from 60 or 110 years ago tells us nothing. The reasons for a poor service in 1961 may still apply (and I would agree that in this case they probably do), but equally things may have changed dramatically. “Accepted wisdom” in the 1970s and early 80s was that Keynsham & Oldfield Park merited the minimal service they got. At the time, accepted wisdom was probably right - but times (and people) change. Incidentally, getting people out of their cars is also something railways (and trams) manage which buses rarely can.

There's truth in that, but getting to the station to catch a train may need a car journey. Once in the car it has to be a frequent and reliably good rail service to exactly where we want to go before the majority of us will chance any interchanging train and/or bus services.

 

[daodao]

the point was that quoting service provision from 60 or 110 years ago tells us nothing

It is useful when the population and nature of an area has changed little in the intervening time. England's deep rural areas (including most of Somerset) have changed little in the last 100 years other than the motorisation/mechanisation of transport and agricultural equipment, and the provision of networked utilities. In most such areas (Fenland excepted), the population remains predominantly white, native-born and (nominally) Anglican, with little immigration and population growth. In some places, the lesser need for agricultural labour has actually resulted in depopulation. Given this picture, it really isn't warranted to try to re-introduce rail services that were obsolescent many years ago.

By contrast, larger towns and cities are very different and the country's population growth (as in most countries) is confined to these areas and their suburban hinterlands.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

Railways need to concentrate on what they are best doing, namely carrying large number of passengers between cities and from local suburban areas into major cities, for which subsidies may be needed but which may be justified by the wider societal benefits. For local services within and around larger cities, a reasonable frequency (minimum 2 tph) is needed to encourage use. They also have a role in carrying bulk freight point-to-point over longer distances. By contrast, maintaining unremunerative rural lines and minor stations on main lines in rural areas to run local services is a waste of money. IMO, the Go-op proposal is a futile attempt to resurrect a concept that was doomed more than 60 years ago.

The Bath-Bristol service that you mention is a local service into a major city from a neighbouring smaller city and the development of a 2 tph service in this part of Somerset is appropriate. A similar comment would apply to the Weston-Bristol service. However, the rest of Somerset is a largely rural county and has neither the population density nor proximity to a major conurbation to merit local rail service development. Somerton may have given its name to the county of Somerset and in the middle ages been its county town, but it is still a very small place in a rural area far from a major city.

We all thought the Okehampton extension would likely be a futile effort too, sometimes rural areas can surprise and end up producing a fair amount of demand, especially if it’s a large area that was being underserved as it was with north Devon and is with central Somerset.

It might end up being futile, but if there is a way to try this then surely it’s by letting open access operators take the risk rather than taxpayer money subsidising a franchised TOC. If the early signs are good from Go-OP’s efforts then it’s a signal for investment into building a station for Langport/Somerton and that investment would be infinitely lower risk with an establish local service already in place.

If Go-Op fail because the demand just isn’t there so be it, the taxpayer really won’t have lost anything. You say it’s a waste of money, but is anyone other than Go-Op and its investors wasting any money here if it fails? Not really.

 

[daodao]

@SirDanielGooch

The Okehampton extension is different from the Go-op proposal because it is part of the DevonMetro network of rail services into the heart of a congested city, so in many ways it is not purely a rural line.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

@SirDanielGooch

The Okehampton extension is different from the Go-op proposal because it is part of the DevonMetro network of rail services into the heart of a congested city, so in many ways it is not purely a rural line.

Go-Op are serving Swindon (population 233k), Taunton (population 65k), and Weston (population 82k). Exeter has a population of 135k, it is not a big city by city standards. Slapping metro on the name of the service doesn’t mean the routes can’t be compared.They both link small rural towns and large villages to large town/small city junction stations at the end of the day.

 

[daodao]

Go-Op are serving Swindon (population 233k), Taunton (population 65k), and Weston (population 82k). Exeter has a population of 135k, it is not a big city by city standards. Slapping metro on the name of the service doesn’t mean the routes can’t be compared.They both link small rural towns and large villages to large town/small city junction stations at the end of the day.

Go-op's proposal to add extra trains on the Swindon-Melksham-Westbury line, to improve the service frequency from 1tp2h to almost 1 tph, may be beneficial, as Swindon has a large population, and the towns served are significant. The population statistics for 2011 for the towns on this segment were:
Swindon 182,441
Trowbridge 39,409
Chippenham 35,800
Melksham 19,357
Westbury 16,989

Their proposals for services west of Westbury seem far more dubious.

 

[cle]

Exeter punches above its weight too as a regional centre - population isn't everything. It's similar to Norwich - not huge in the grand scheme of things, but the biggest thing around, and location of best shopping, best jobs etc.

 

[eldomtom2]

Railways need to concentrate on what they are best doing, namely carrying large number of passengers between cities and from local suburban areas into major cities, for which subsidies may be needed but which may be justified by the wider societal benefits.

This has not been a politically acceptable idea since the end of the 1960s, frankly. Getting rid of the rural railway has proven to be extremely unpopular.

 

[brad465]

Go-op's proposal to add extra trains on the Swindon-Melksham-Westbury line, to improve the service frequency from 1tp2h to almost 1 tph, may be beneficial, as Swindon has a large population, and the towns served are significant. The population statistics for 2011 for the towns on this segment were:
Swindon 182,441
Trowbridge 39,409
Chippenham 35,800
Melksham 19,357
Westbury 16,989

Their proposals for services west of Westbury seem far more dubious.

Taunton has 61,674 according to the latest census, Frome 27,898 and if they get to Weston-super-Mare, 94,711. Two of these beat all but Swindon. Westbury also is a large interchange hub, so more services feeding into it will create more convenient journeys to other locations, including London.

 

[daodao]

Taunton has 61,674 according to the latest census, Frome 27,898 and if they get to Weston-super-Mare, 94,711. Two of these beat all but Swindon. Westbury also is a large interchange hub, so more services feeding into it will create more convenient journeys to other locations, including London.

It is a long way (nearly 50 miles) from Westbury to Taunton on a main line with nowhere of significance other than Frome at its eastern end. There are already adequate (hourly) services from Weston to Taunton and this section is also a main line. Slow stopping trains on main lines through rural areas are problematic, which is why most of these services and the wayside stations that they served were scrapped in the 1960s if not already removed.

There may be a case for extending some Swindon-Westbury services to Frome, which is only 6 miles, where trains can terminate off the main line. However, this would increases costs for limited benefit as it would make it difficult to operate a 1tp2h Swindon-Westbury service with a single train, because the journey time would be extended from a minimum of 42 minutes to a minimum of 52 minutes. I still think that the Go-op proposals for services west of Frome are dubious.

 

[Couru]

As someone who grew up in the area, there is definitely a hunger for this. As another poster said, GWR currently treats around here as little more as a way to connect discontiguous services. Going from Frome to Bridgwater, something that should be a relatively simple endeavour, requires you to go all the way up to Bristol or two changes at Castle Cary/Yeovil and Taunton; the same goes for Swindon. Coming from London, if you wanted to get to Frome, there's usually a 30min wait at Westbury to transfer.

FirstGroup have an absolute chokehold on transport in the South West. Most major buses are First, and both SWR/GWR franchises are run by them (to the point the CMA investigated and demanded concessions to avoid a monopoly). Competition is needed to stop them resting on their laurels and neglecting the "unimportant" local links to the benefit of the highly profitable London suburban routes - and isn't that the entire point of open-access operators?

I also strongly disagree with the idea that this part of Somerset/Wiltshire is a Cotswold-esque rural void where the only worthwhile exports are tourism and agriculture. Trowbridge, Chippenham and Frome in particular are areas that could turn into really productive commuter towns if transport links are improved.

All this is to say that Go-op has some real potential, and strong local support for it too. I just sincerely hope they're able to pull it off.

 

[LLivery]

It is useful when the population and nature of an area has changed little in the intervening time. England's deep rural areas (including most of Somerset) have changed little in the last 100 years other than the motorisation/mechanisation of transport and agricultural equipment, and the provision of networked utilities. In most such areas (Fenland excepted), the population remains predominantly white, native-born and (nominally) Anglican, with little immigration and population growth. In some places, the lesser need for agricultural labour has actually resulted in depopulation. Given this picture, it really isn't warranted to try to re-introduce rail services that were obsolescent many years ago.

By contrast, larger towns and cities are very different and the country's population growth (as in most countries) is confined to these areas and their suburban hinterlands.

To me, this states that they need investment in transport infrastructure. Depopulation often happens because the ability to travel into major centers are soo poor, that commuting is a hassle (and a lack of housing). Towns on Intercity routes are often being left with pretty rubbish local connectivity, because of the focus on major flows. This is then made worse by dire local bus offerings (and if the rails and buses all happen to be run by everyone's favourite operator, you're a bit stuck).

A service at key times, eventually becoming hourly seems pretty reasonable if the price is right. And if they eventually get access to Bristol, Oxford and Exeter and I don't see why it can't be successful.

End of the day, I'd rather someone try it at their own risk, than not try at all. Good luck to them; I wish we'd see more focus on local town/village routes in England.

 

[Goop Coop]

It is a long way (nearly 50 miles) from Westbury to Taunton on a main line with nowhere of significance other than Frome at its eastern end. There are already adequate (hourly) services from Weston to Taunton and this section is also a main line. Slow stopping trains on main lines through rural areas are problematic

It's a point of view, but we'd like to offer some counter arguments - there's more people there than you think, there are good reasons for rural rail services, and there is evidence to suggest that this particular route isn't problematic.
So first, there's more there than you think: we're talking I think about three stations (leaving aside the proposed Somerton station): Castle Cary, Bruton, and Frome. Frome is actually quite a substantial town, and (like many in the west) growing quite fast. In 2013, Frome's population was 27,203, and it's projected to grow by 25% to 34,000 by 2028. Bruton is quite a bit smaller, and truth be told if there is difficulty getting a compliant path we do sometimes pass. Castle Cary seems to be small at first glance (3,500) but bear in mind it is the parkway rail station for Shepton Mallet (10,000), Street and Glastonbury (20,000) and Wincanton (8,000). We have hinterland.
The reason why rural rail services get more respect now than they did in the 1960s is that we now better understand agglomeration effects - the way in which small settlements can behave like larger ones (higher productivity, more dynamism and innovation) if there is infrastructure that allows them to link up effectively. Rail is not the only way of doing that, but it is very effective (especially as you approach 1tph). Also, pollution from car traffic was thought for many years to be an urban issue - but studies on ozone and particulate pollution in particular have found real issues in rural areas too.
Finally, I would say a service is 'problematic' if it can't be done within normal train planning rules (ie there isn't capacity); if demand forecasting using standard methodologies suggest it can't survive without subsidy; or if performance analysis suggests that it would risk setting off 'cascades' of delays. We've checked all these issues, and we really aren't putting forward a problematic proposal (if we had been, I imagine one or both of NR or the ORR would have nipped it in the bud).

 

[irish_rail]

As someone who grew up in the area, there is definitely a hunger for this. As another poster said, GWR currently treats around here as little more as a way to connect discontiguous services. Going from Frome to Bridgwater, something that should be a relatively simple endeavour, requires you to go all the way up to Bristol or two changes at Castle Cary/Yeovil and Taunton; the same goes for Swindon. Coming from London, if you wanted to get to Frome, there's usually a 30min wait at Westbury to transfer.

FirstGroup have an absolute chokehold on transport in the South West. Most major buses are First, and both SWR/GWR franchises are run by them (to the point the CMA investigated and demanded concessions to avoid a monopoly). Competition is needed to stop them resting on their laurels and neglecting the "unimportant" local links to the benefit of the highly profitable London suburban routes - and isn't that the entire point of open-access operators?

I also strongly disagree with the idea that this part of Somerset/Wiltshire is a Cotswold-esque rural void where the only worthwhile exports are tourism and agriculture. Trowbridge, Chippenham and Frome in particular are areas that could turn into really productive commuter towns if transport links are improved.

All this is to say that Go-op has some real potential, and strong local support for it too. I just sincerely hope they're able to pull it off.

Got to take issue with the statement about buses in the south west. The entirety of Devon and Cornwall are run by either Stagecoach or Go ahead, no First group to be seen.

 

[eldomtom2]

if demand forecasting using standard methodologies suggest it can't survive without subsidy

Doesn't that apply to most passenger rail services in the UK?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Got to take issue with the statement about buses in the south west. The entirety of Devon and Cornwall are run by either Stagecoach or Go ahead, no First group to be seen.

Er,no. Truronian,Kernow and Buses of Somerset are all owned by First.

 

[irish_rail]

Er,no. Truronian,Kernow and Buses of Somerset are all owned by First.

No idea on Somerset, but Transport for Cornwall (go ahead run) do vast majority of Cornish stuff, and stagecoach / go ahead do all of Devon. Certainly no First group monopoly out west.

 

[Couru]

Got to take issue with the statement about buses in the south west. The entirety of Devon and Cornwall are run by either Stagecoach or Go ahead, no First group to be seen.

I will concede that I had extrapolated my experiences in Somerset and Dorset to the other counties. I feel my point still stands, that FirstGroup have an undue influence on public transport in the area and competition is friendly at best.

 

[Goop Coop]

Doesn't that apply to most passenger rail services in the UK?

Fair point, I was thinking of the tests that one would apply to an Open Access rail service particularly.

 

[LUYMun]

Not sure how much info from this online news article from Rail Magazine is already shared with this forum and there's a lot to unpack here as the Chairman shares information about Go-Op's strategy of starting up the company in the next year or so: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2...ines-funding-requirements-and-projected-start

Go-Op: Chairman of regional open access operator outlines funding requirements and projected start of services

The chairman of open access operator Go-op is confident that the company will be a success, as it looks to raise around £2 million in start-up costs with the aim of starting services in 2026.

Go-op was given the go-ahead by the Office of Rail and Road in mid-November to start running trains between Swindon, Taunton and Weston-super-Mare.

Chairman Alex Lawrie was “over the moon”, telling RAIL: “It has been such a long journey to get to this point. I am fully aware that ORR approval does not mean that we’re actually running any trains, and they’ve set us some fairly stiff conditions that we have to comply with, but even so it represents a real breakthrough moment for us.

“This is the point at which a completely independent, completely grassroots, co-operative project has actually met with the approval of the rail regulator.”

ORR has approved 4 return trips from Taunton-Swindon, 3 Taunton-Westbury, 2 Frome-Westbury, and 2 Taunton-Weston-super-Mare. Go-op had hoped to start as early as December 2025, but 2026 is now the realistic goal.

Lawrie said Go-op’s service will be about serving market towns which “have a very limited rail service”, highlighting cross-country journeys which have poor connections such as Swindon- Salisbury, and the struggle to travel into Taunton from various Somerset towns. He recounted his own experiences of living in Yeovil in 2004, and finding that there were “hardly any trains leaving Pen Mill”.

[...]

 

[Bald Rick]

will be interesting to see who invests, and what sort of return they are promised.

In Dragons’ Den style…”I’m out”

 

[brad465]

will be interesting to see who invests, and what sort of return they are promised.

In Dragons’ Den style…”I’m out”

Would you have "made an offer" if the 8 level crossings requiring work were not a (to pardon the pun) barrier to the service running?

 

[Bertie the bus]

will be interesting to see who invests, and what sort of return they are promised.

8% interest if you invested now, which would increase to 10% if they exceed their predicted income.

Looking at their share offer documentation it appears as though despite being in existence and coming up with numerous proposals for 10 - 15 years they don't have any money. They are trying to raise £200K this year so they can afford to recruit the necessary staff and train drivers with another £1.9 million next year. I know the cost of upgrading the level crossings came as a shock to them but needing money to train drivers shouldn't have.

 

[PG]

Not sure how much info from this online news article from Rail Magazine is already shared with this forum and there's a lot to unpack here as the Chairman shares information about Go-Op's strategy of starting up the company in the next year or so: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/2...ines-funding-requirements-and-projected-start

Thanks for sharing that. This caught my eye:

level crossing improvements are also being costed.

If they aim to start operations within the next 2 years - have NR the capacity to plan and deliver these crossing upgrades in that period?

Would you have "made an offer" if the 8 level crossings requiring work were not a (to pardon the pun) barrier to the service running?

I wonder if First group might consider investing....?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How long before First, who are already making desperate attempts to cling to as much of their current Great Western revenue as possible post-nationalisation by having Lumo takeover Grand Union’s Carmarthen operation, and adding a Paignton one to it, attempt to buy Go-Op out too? I can just see them offering to buy it, we know they can afford to, and if Go-Op’s whole reason for existing is to provide the underserved regions of the area with a service, well, that’s what First would be guaranteeing, so you’d think they’d accept wouldn’t you?

 

[irish_rail]

How long before First, who are already making desperate attempts to cling to as much of their current Great Western revenue as possible post-nationalisation by having Lumo takeover Grand Union’s Carmarthen operation, and adding a Paignton one to it, attempt to buy Go-Op out too? I can just see them offering to buy it, we know they can afford to, and if Go-Op’s whole reason for existing is to provide the underserved regions of the area with a service, well, that’s what First would be guaranteeing, so you’d think they’d accept wouldn’t you?

Can't see First being interested too be honest.

 

[YorkRailFan]

How long before First, who are already making desperate attempts to cling to as much of their current Great Western revenue as possible post-nationalisation by having Lumo takeover Grand Union’s Carmarthen operation, and adding a Paignton one to it, attempt to buy Go-Op out too? I can just see them offering to buy it, we know they can afford to, and if Go-Op’s whole reason for existing is to provide the underserved regions of the area with a service, well, that’s what First would be guaranteeing, so you’d think they’d accept wouldn’t you?

Agree, although it would defeat the point of being a "Cooperatively owned rail operator" that Go-Op strives to be. Will be interesting to see if that's something Go-Op is willing to give up in order to receive investment.

 

[Bertie the bus]

How long before First, who are already making desperate attempts to cling to as much of their current Great Western revenue as possible post-nationalisation by having Lumo takeover Grand Union’s Carmarthen operation, and adding a Paignton one to it, attempt to buy Go-Op out too? I can just see them offering to buy it, we know they can afford to, and if Go-Op’s whole reason for existing is to provide the underserved regions of the area with a service, well, that’s what First would be guaranteeing, so you’d think they’d accept wouldn’t you?

Who are they? Go-Op are a cooperative. Shares are non-tradeable and it is 1 member, 1 vote. The sort of people who are likely to invest in a scheme like this aren't likely to accept the venture being taken over by a large organisation. Not that FirstGroup would have any interest in trying to take them over anyway.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Looking at their proposed route I hope they don’t want to make a profit. Trowbridge,Westbury to Frome,and Bridgewater to Highbridge are notorious areas for fare evasion.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

Looking at their proposed route I hope they don’t want to make a profit. Trowbridge,Westbury to Frome,and Bridgewater to Highbridge are notorious areas for fare evasion.

I imagine fare evasion is easier on a 5/9 car IET than it would be on a single 153 with a guard though.