New Midland Mainline Stock?

[ainsworth74]

Can I just add the DB regio swinger would an excellent addition to the british fleet and, would be well suited to the glasgow - aberdeen service. This train is made for britain

Perhaps but how much gauge clearance would be needed to make it fit (let alone allow it to tilt)?

 

[Rick1984]

good point. Would end up with a voyager/turbostar crossbreed. Shame; as this is the sought of train that would excel on these sought of lines in britain.

 

[scandal]

I'd suggest that Liverpool-Norwich would be a good home for the meridians, their acceleration and 125mph capability would come in particularly handy.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd suggest that Liverpool-Norwich would be a good home for the meridians, their acceleration and 125mph capability would come in particularly handy.

Very little 125mph on that route and I don't think 222s can use SP differentials meaning that you'd actually increase journey times.

 

[MattRobinson]

Although the main routes need electrifying, it would be short sighted to end the electrification in Sheffield when they can electrify to the ECML meaning that local trains can also run under the wires.

On a more general note, IMHO, the modernisation plan was misguided: instead of messing around with mainline diesels, in the vast majority of cases, steam engines should have been retained a little longer until electric trains could be deployed on the network. The only diesels should have been on the very lightly used routes (eg: in the north of Scotland) and for shunting operations.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure someone more technically minded will be along before too long, but I recon 3rd rail bimode might be possible for the 222s without the need for extra vehicles.

i hope they are because i am not sure that this idea is:

a) sensible
b) practical
c) Possible.

What possible business case could there be for such a train? How would you get the money signed off with an ambition of converting 3rd rail to 25kv overheads floating about?


What use or benefit would there be in doing this work? What service would they run?

EDIT DXMachina got there first:

Apart from the fact that 3rd-rail's on the way out and the top speed for 3rd-rail ops is around 110mph if you;re very very lucky.......and this is a 125mph train....

How do you propose to power a train with a 1kv+ bus voltage off a 750 volt rail?

And how would you fit 3rd-rail pickups to internal-frame bogies?

 

[HSTEd]

Find me a line electrified with 3rd rail where a 125mph train can run at 125mph now... I can't think of any.

But trying to pwoer the bus line with the 750V third rail would cause all sorts of problems.

As to not being able to power a 6-car 221 with a single transformer vehicle, surely the 5-car sets could all be reformed to give ED 5-car sets and a handful of longer sets that can be deployed elsewhere to displace HSTs, such as the ones that are already at XC?

 

[rf_ioliver]

Can I just add the DB regio swinger would an excellent addition to the british fleet and, would be well suited to the glasgow - aberdeen service. This train is made for britain

But isn't that what the Voyager is...a UK version of the Regio Swinger., which itself is a tilting, diesel multiple unit, albeit 2 cars (and generally run as a 4). Reasonable trains to be on, quite comfortable and haven't really noticed any major differences between those and the Voyager from a passenger point of view*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RegioSwinger

The one difference I can see is that they run at 160kmh and not 200kmh. But as someone else mentioned in this post, a regearing of the Voyagers for faster acceleration at the expense of top speed would make them (as far as I can see) very suitable for some longer cross-country lines, for example Norwich-Livertool, TransPennine, possibly even Cardiff-Portsmouth.

t.

Ian

 

[Nym]

No, but then the plan to bi-mode the Voyagers was announced before the spine was on the radar, the case to convert the entire fleet would now be stronger.

But as has been said many, many times on here, the extension of 5 car 22x unit into a 6 car 22x unit by the addition of a PTSO vehicle would make the set underpowered on the wires as you can't fit in a big enough transformer, it would require two PTSO vehicles and re-wiring of all vehicles sited between these within the formation. Resulting in a fleet of 5 and 7 sets that could not be doubled up in service as they'd be too long for most platforms in 12 car formation and almoast all platforms in 14 car formation.
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How do you propose to power a train with a 1kv+ bus voltage off a 750 volt rail?

Quite easilly by the use of power electronics that, due to being DC, can be distributed throughout the unit...

 

[tbtc]

Although the main routes need electrifying, it would be short sighted to end the electrification in Sheffield when they can electrify to the ECML meaning that local trains can also run under the wires

I'm sure they will be done in CP6 - there are a lot of logical "follow on" electrifications (like Erewash, Derby to Birmingham), but the size of CP5 electrification means they'll struggle to do everything committed to by 2019 without stretching themselves further.

I'd love to see EMUs replacing Pacers on Sheffield - Leeds services of course!

 

[MCR247]

But isn't that what the Voyager is...a UK version of the Regio Swinger., which itself is a tilting, diesel multiple unit, albeit 2 cars (and generally run as a 4). Reasonable trains to be on, quite comfortable and haven't really noticed any major differences between those and the Voyager from a passenger point of view*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RegioSwinger

The one difference I can see is that they run at 160kmh and not 200kmh. But as someone else mentioned in this post, a regearing of the Voyagers for faster acceleration at the expense of top speed would make them (as far as I can see) very suitable for some longer cross-country lines, for example Norwich-Livertool, TransPennine, possibly even Cardiff-Portsmouth.

t.

Ian

Tbh the major difference from a pax POV is that the 220 is a Intercity train and the regioswinger isn't. 220 --> ICE-T whereas a regioswinger is more like a tilting 170

 

[Kneedown]

Very little 125mph on that route and I don't think 222s can use SP differentials meaning that you'd actually increase journey times.

Nope, a Meridian can easily keep to Sprinter timingd, certainly on the Liverpool half, due to superior acceleration and ability to reach and maintain linespeed on the steep gradients of the Hope Valley. This is proved every Grand National day when two Meridian services run.

 

[Paul.S]

My personal preference would be SWT to replace the vast majority of their 158/159 fleet which would be very useful elsewhere. I'm sure someone more technically minded will be along before too long, but I recon 3rd rail bimode might be possible for the 222s without the need for extra vehicles.[/QUOTE]

They could always send some 158/159's to the Anglia area? The 153/156's are starting to look tired now....

 

[David10]

They could always send some 158/159's to the Anglia area? The 153/156's are starting to look tired now.

The 156s are about to be overhauled and made DDA compliant, so will be with Greater Anglia for some time yet.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Sorry if this has already been covered in another thread but a quick search didn’t yield any results so...

Now the decision has been taken to electrify the MML as far has Sheffield, what future decisions are likely to happen regarding rolling stock on the route? Will (can?) the Meridians be converted to Bimode operation or will there be an order for new eclectic stock to operate the route; and if so what new stock could be ordered to meet the criteria (IEP or something else?). Finally is the Meridians /HSTs are to be replaced on the MML then where can they be cascaded too?

Smart money is on the 91s and Mk IVs going over there.

 

[ainsworth74]

Nope, a Meridian can easily keep to Sprinter timingd, certainly on the Liverpool half, due to superior acceleration and ability to reach and maintain linespeed on the steep gradients of the Hope Valley.

I stand corrected. So can they use SP differentials or is it a similar situation to 170s and 185s between Leeds and Hull (the 185s can't run as fast through the area but because they accelerate so much better they get up to their reduced linespeed faster so it doesn't matter)?

 

[Nym]

I'm under the suspicion that 22x units can use HST differentials? Or am I being thick there?

 

[HSTEd]

Nope, a Meridian can easily keep to Sprinter timingd, certainly on the Liverpool half, due to superior acceleration and ability to reach and maintain linespeed on the steep gradients of the Hope Valley. This is proved every Grand National day when two Meridian services run.

But you loose tonnes of time on the norwich half because of the long lengths of 60SP75 and 75SP90 between Peterborough and Norwich on the Breckland Line.

 

[Nym]

But you loose tonnes of time on the norwich half because of the long lengths of 60SP75 and 75SP90 between Peterborough and Norwich on the Breckland Line.

If we're looking at a major stock change though, how hard would it be to change these to 60MU75 and 75MU90 limits?

 

[tbtc]

But you loose tonnes of time on the norwich half because of the long lengths of 60SP75 and 75SP90 between Peterborough and Norwich on the Breckland Line.

Whilst I could see the benefit of a five/ seven coach train between Liverpool/ Manchester/ Sheffield/ Nottingham, that'd be overkill on the Norwich end, so I presume that any enhancement to capacity on the western end would see the route cut in Nottingham

 

[Kneedown]

I stand corrected. So can they use SP differentials or is it a similar situation to 170s and 185s between Leeds and Hull (the 185s can't run as fast through the area but because they accelerate so much better they get up to their reduced linespeed faster so it doesn't matter)?

The second example.
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I'm under the suspicion that 22x units can use HST differentials? Or am I being thick there?

Yes they can.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But you loose tonnes of time on the norwich half because of the long lengths of 60SP75 and 75SP90 between Peterborough and Norwich on the Breckland Line.

Not really. You lose a bit Ely to Lakenheath due to the 45mph PSR, but with a 158 you very rarely get anywhere near 90 on most of the higher differentials due to the low power of a 158. Even the couple where 90 is attainable, it's only for a short time before you have to slow again.

 

[ainsworth74]

The second example.

Thanks for clearing that up

 

[Rick1984]

Whilst I could see the benefit of a five/ seven coach train between Liverpool/ Manchester/ Sheffield/ Nottingham, that'd be overkill on the Norwich end, so I presume that any enhancement to capacity on the western end would see the route cut in Nottingham

Do you regularly travel from norwich with EMT? These trains are often packed.

 

[tbtc]

Do you regularly travel from norwich with EMT? These trains are often packed.

From time to time, and they don't seem to justify a five/seven coach 222 to me.

I'm happy to defer to Kneedown here as he has more experience though.

 

[DXMachina]

Smart money is on the 91s and Mk IVs going over there.

Aren't they getting a bit old for that? 24 years already and thats before electrification even starts...

 

[WillPS]

Whilst I could see the benefit of a five/ seven coach train between Liverpool/ Manchester/ Sheffield/ Nottingham, that'd be overkill on the Norwich end, so I presume that any enhancement to capacity on the western end would see the route cut in Nottingham

The Eastern half of the route is growing a lot more rapidly though - could very easily see Operation Princess style growth with an InterCity service.

 

[Yew]

From time to time, and they don't seem to justify a five/seven coach 222 to me.

I'm happy to defer to Kneedown here as he has more experience though.

I'm not sure, but I estimate a 5 coach meridian wouldnt have mcuh more in the way of seating than a 4 car 158. certainly a reduction in standard seats.

 

[jopsuk]

a reduction in standard class seats for sure- especially as EMT 158s have no 1st class.

 

[tbtc]

I'm not sure, but I estimate a 5 coach meridian wouldnt have mcuh more in the way of seating than a 4 car 158. certainly a reduction in standard seats.

We are comparing the current two coach operation east of Nottingham though (which is the bit that I'm saying wouldn't justify a five/seven coach 222).

 

[WestCountry]

Having been unable to board at Ely on a couple of occasions (the exception though, normally about 70-80% full off-peak), I'd say that at least a 3-car set is essential even with the current level of service. An InterCity-standard service would attract far more passengers, so a 5-car Meridian would probably be about right...