New Midland Mainline Stock?

[MidlandMainlie]

Sorry if this has already been covered in another thread but a quick search didn’t yield any results so...

Now the decision has been taken to electrify the MML as far has Sheffield, what future decisions are likely to happen regarding rolling stock on the route? Will (can?) the Meridians be converted to Bimode operation or will there be an order for new eclectic stock to operate the route; and if so what new stock could be ordered to meet the criteria (IEP or something else?). Finally is the Meridians /HSTs are to be replaced on the MML then where can they be cascaded too?

 

[IanXC]

Now the decision has been taken to electrify the MML as far has Sheffield, what future decisions are likely to happen regarding rolling stock on the route? Will (can?) the Meridians be converted to Bimode operation or will there be an order for new eclectic stock to operate the route; and if so what new stock could be ordered to meet the criteria (IEP or something else?). Finally is the Meridians /HSTs are to be replaced on the MML then where can they be cascaded too?

I'm pretty certain no decisions have been made, or tbh considered in detail yet. The Meridians could be subjected to a Project Thor style bimode project but it would seem odd given there are only summer saturday services which go beyond the proposed limit of electrification.

It would seem to me that a new stock order is most likely. There are no MML options in the current IEP programme so presumably a new procurement exercise would be initiated, which of course could be won by Hitatchi.

In all reality I think unless a TOC decided to embark on a power door project the MML HSTs will be retired. The best of the HST fleet is likely to be retained in the short term for FGW's far south west services but that can't last forever.

As for a home for the 222s I suspect ATW or Scotrail's long distance services would be a likely home (spread the improvements to the devolved nations and all that). My personal preference would be SWT to replace the vast majority of their 158/159 fleet which would be very useful elsewhere. I'm sure someone more technically minded will be along before too long, but I recon 3rd rail bimode might be possible for the 222s without the need for extra vehicles.

 

[DarloRich]

Who wants to bet we get some more of those wonderful bi (sexual?) mode IEP trains

 

[David10]

The Meridians may go to Great Western as a replacement for the Devon and Cornwall HSTs.

 

[Nym]

As for a home for the 222s I suspect ATW or Scotrail's long distance services would be a likely home (spread the improvements to the devolved nations and all that). My personal preference would be SWT to replace the vast majority of their 158/159 fleet which would be very useful elsewhere. I'm sure someone more technically minded will be along before too long, but I recon 3rd rail bimode might be possible for the 222s without the need for extra vehicles.

In my (trained) opinion, that sounds significantly more realistic than trying to wedge a big enough transformer into one carriage for anything exceeding a four car diesel unit, would be two transformers out to 8 cars long, so some reforming could manage it. With 3rd rail you could have pickups on each carriage with associated power electronics, the problem would come from attaching shouegear if I'm thinking right.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Who wants to bet we get some more of those wonderful bi (sexual?) mode IEP trains

Would BiMode IEP be necessary given that most summer Saturday extensions are to places that like York/Scarborough, Leeds and Lincoln which would be better served via BiMode IEP on the ECML. (excluding the Corby extensions to Oakham and Melton Mowbray). Surely any IEP order for the MML would be all electric probably a mix of 5 or 7 car lengths like the current fleet.

 

[HSTEd]

I assume the ex ICXC HST power cars will be the ones that are retained for the South West services because they are the youngest, which consigns the entire MML fleet to the scrapyard (those are ex ICEC HST sets right? Cascaded after electrification).

Will probably get whatever the generic flavour of the month unit is in 2015, wich might be IEP but it might not be.

 

[ainsworth74]

Would BiMode IEP be necessary given that most summer Saturday extensions are to places that like York/Scarborough, Leeds and Lincoln which would be better served via BiMode IEP on the ECML.

Bearing in mind that only the Scarborough services a summer extensions I still hold out hopes for seeing at least one of the routes between Sheffield and the ECML getting wired at the same time as the MML so for Leeds this might not be a problem. But speaking specifically about the York/Scarborough extensions, whilst running straight down the ECML would be logical if providing a London service was the goal, the main aim of those services is to provide a link between Sheffield/Derby/Leicester which can be seen in the loadings between those stations. On the point of Lincoln that service is more about providing a high capacity peak service between Nottingham and Lincoln rather than a Lincoln to London service. I'd anticipate that this service would simply be dropped and other rolling stock re-jigged to provide extra capacity and a connection onto a London bound service from Nottingham.

Personally I think we'll see at least one line between Sheffield and the ECML wired and that the MML will get an all EMU fleet of trains (I'm thinking either IEP or perhaps 390s if someone thinks tilt is worth installing) with services to Scarborough/Lincoln dropped entirely. If it were to be IEP I think we'd see line via Mexborough wired as this would allow access to the Doncaster depot for the trains and avoid the cost of establishing a brand new depot elsewhere.

 

[sprinterguy]

I assume the ex ICXC HST power cars will be the ones that are retained for the South West services because they are the youngest, which consigns the entire MML fleet to the scrapyard (those are ex ICEC HST sets right? Cascaded after electrification).

The MML was allocated HST sets before the East Coast was electrified by tightening up rosters, but yeah they are (at least mostly) former Eastern Region power cars as far as I know. That the FGW power cars, particularly those that were formerly Virgin XC power cars which were generally in quite a state by the time that FGW got hold of them, have received much more extensive attention during the re-engining project is likely to have far more bearing on their surviving longer than the MML power cars than an ordinal and indiscriminate consideration of their age. Those with the least mileage and wear on their engines and other components will last the longest, and on that note weren’t 43002 and 43003 two of the last power cars to go for life extension work out of FGWs’ fleet?

While I would never want to wish away any HST sets, I can’t see a future for the Midland Mainline HSTs after MML electrification: They will be forty years old or more by 2020 after all.
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Surely any IEP order for the MML would be all electric probably a mix of 5 or 7 car lengths like the current fleet.

You’re forgetting about the HSTs in your fleet analysis there, which are eight carriages in length, but even a seven carriage HST would have greater capacity than a seven carriage Meridian. If IEPs were to be procured for the MML, then it makes sense to me to stick with the current trend in train lengths and (if we must have five carriage units to increase “operational flexibility”) go for a mix of nine carriage and five carriage units. I agree with them being all electric though.

 

[IanXC]

I still hold out hopes for seeing at least one of the routes between Sheffield and the ECML getting wired at the same time as the MML so for Leeds this might not be a problem.

Although the Leeds services are really just positioning moves to get stock to and from Neville Hill. If the new stock is maintained elsewhere then I think its highly likely that MML services will no longer serve Leeds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

will there be an order for new eclectic stock to operate the route

Now there's an idea - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eclectic
Number 3 looks the one to go for:
not following any one system, as of philosophy, medicine, etc., but selecting and using what are considered the best elements of all systems

 

[ainsworth74]

Although the Leeds services are really just positioning moves to get stock to and from Neville Hill. If the new stock is maintained elsewhere then I think its highly likely that MML services will no longer serve Leeds.

Good point and thinking about it you're probably right. Still I think a link between Sheffield and the ECML is likely as it would be foolish not to include one, whilst the DfT might not have directly funded it, it's always possible that Network Rail will scrounge the money themselves to do it and if IEP were selected I think it would be inevitable due to the location of the depot (perhaps we'll see St Pancras to Doncaster services instead of Leeds ).

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Bearing in mind that only the Scarborough services a summer extensions I still hold out hopes for seeing at least one of the routes between Sheffield and the ECML getting wired at the same time as the MML so for Leeds this might not be a problem. But speaking specifically about the York/Scarborough extensions, whilst running straight down the ECML would be logical if providing a London service was the goal, the main aim of those services is to provide a link between Sheffield/Derby/Leicester which can be seen in the loadings between those stations. On the point of Lincoln that service is more about providing a high capacity peak service between Nottingham and Lincoln rather than a Lincoln to London service. I'd anticipate that this service would simply be dropped and other rolling stock re-jigged to provide extra capacity and a connection onto a London bound service from Nottingham.

Personally I think we'll see at least one line between Sheffield and the ECML wired and that the MML will get an all EMU fleet of trains (I'm thinking either IEP or perhaps 390s if someone thinks tilt is worth installing) with services to Scarborough/Lincoln dropped entirely. If it were to be IEP I think we'd see line via Mexborough wired as this would allow access to the Doncaster depot for the trains and avoid the cost of establishing a brand new depot elsewhere.

I agree about wiring north of Sheffield although I don’t think this will happen till early CP6. However given the committed electrification of GWML and Transpennine North I don’t think that MML electrification will be fully started till the back end of CP5 so with some planning electrification from Bedford to Sheffield and onward to Leeds/Doncaster could be done in one whole go.

You’re forgetting about the HSTs in your fleet analysis there, which are eight carriages in length, but even a seven carriage HST would have greater capacity than a seven carriage Meridian. If IEPs were to be procured for the MML, then it makes sense to me to stick with the current trend in train lengths and (if we must have five carriage units to increase “operational flexibility”) go for a mix of nine carriage and five carriage units. I agree with them being all electric though.

Opps given I travel on HST to and from Nottingham more often than the Meridians. Would a 7 carriage IEP have as much capacity as 8 car HST? Good point about sticking with nine and five carriage sets as long as platforms at smaller intermediate stations are long enough to serve them.

While I would never want to wish away any HST sets, I can’t see a future for the Midland Mainline HSTs after MML electrification: They will be forty years old or more by 2020 after all.

True I will miss the too :cry:
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Now there's an idea - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eclectic
Number 3 looks the one to go for:
not following any one system, as of philosophy, medicine, etc., but selecting and using what are considered the best elements of all systems

Sorry being dyslexic I try and spell check all my posts in Word, but it doesn’t always pick up those sot of mistakes. Still maybe being electic and only having the best stock on the MML is the way to.

 

[sprinterguy]

Would a 7 carriage IEP have as much capacity as 8 car HST?

Depending on what interior layout of IEP you were to select, then, having done a bit of maths, it does look like they might actually be broadly comparable in terms of capacity.

 

[DXMachina]

I
but I recon 3rd rail bimode might be possible for the 222s without the need for extra vehicles.

Apart from the fact that 3rd-rail's on the way out and the top speed for 3rd-rail ops is around 110mph if you;re very very lucky.......and this is a 125mph train....

How do you propose to power a train with a 1kv+ bus voltage off a 750 volt rail?

And how would you fit 3rd-rail pickups to internal-frame bogies?

 

[D1009]

As for a home for the 222s I suspect ATW or Scotrail's long distance services would be a likely home (spread the improvements to the devolved nations and all that). My personal preference would be SWT to replace the vast majority of their 158/159 fleet which would be very useful elsewhere. I'm sure someone more technically minded will be along before too long, but I recon 3rd rail bimode might be possible for the 222s without the need for extra vehicles.

Use of 125 mph units on Waterloo Exeter or on internal services in Wales or Scotland would be rather a waste, however once all lines currently proposed for electrification are finished, there isn't going to be much need for 125 mph diesel stock other than on XC.

 

[IanXC]

Use of 125 mph units on Waterloo Exeter or on internal services in Wales or Scotland would be rather a waste, however once all lines currently proposed for electrification are finished, there isn't going to be much need for 125 mph diesel stock other than on XC.

That's the trouble. I think they're inevitably going to end up on slower intercity routes, there just aren't other locations for them. Even XC are likely to have a reducing requirement for this kind of stock, with the forthcoming Electric Spine eletrification programme.

 

[yorksrob]

This is probably a silly question from a non-engineer, but is there some way they could gear down such units to be better for slower services that stop more often (didn't they do something like this for 225's ?).

 

[MidlandMainlie]

On a related note when are Class 90 and Mark 3 on the GEML due for replacement? Could a combined order for new stock on both routes be made like IEP on GWML and ECML?

 

[Nym]

This is probably a silly question from a non-engineer, but is there some way they could gear down such units to be better for slower services that stop more often (didn't they do something like this for 225's ?).

Doesn't really matter on the 22x series, the power delivery system works pretty well at any point, and the cost of changing it would provide limited benifit, this is different to diesel mechanical or hydrolic systems that depend on engine speed.

 

[yorksrob]

Doesn't really matter on the 22x series, the power delivery system works pretty well at any point, and the cost of changing it would provide limited benifit, this is different to diesel mechanical or hydrolic systems that depend on engine speed.

Ah, cheers for that. Seems to me that the 222's would be pretty decent for something like Waterloo - Exeter from a comfort point of view, provided they were ok technically for it, leaving 159's available for various other duties.

 

[David10]

On a related note when are Class 90 and Mark 3 on the GEML due for replacement? Could a combined order for new stock on both routes be made like IEP on GWML and ECML?

Whether the Greater Anglia Mk3s are refurbished or replaced will be decided when the franchise is relet in 2014. As the GEML has a top speed of 100mph any replacement will more likely be a Desiro / Electrostar style EMU.
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Even XC are likely to have a reducing requirement for this kind of stock, with the forthcoming Electric Spine electrification programme.

But this won't bring new trains to XC, just Voyagers converted to bi-mode.

 

[trentside]

On the point of Lincoln that service is more about providing a high capacity peak service between Nottingham and Lincoln rather than a Lincoln to London service. I'd anticipate that this service would simply be dropped and other rolling stock re-jigged to provide extra capacity and a connection onto a London bound service from Nottingham.

The Lincoln extension is about capacity - the service is well used by people commuting into Nottingham. Through traffic to London from Lincoln and Newark is less common (though fares now exist for this route via Nottingham), but it's not unheard of. The one advantage of going via Nottingham is that the walk-up fares on EMT are cheaper than those via the ECML - you just can't be in a hurry. Were the service to be withdrawn, it would certainly require at least 3 or 4 carriages to avoid overcrowding into Nottingham.

It would probably be more advantageous to provide a strengthened 'local' train providing a connection onto a fast service from Nottingham to St Pancras. The current 0704 is a slow stopper after Nottingham, so you don't arrive in London until 1000 - an hour longer than going via the ECML (direct or changing at Newark).

 

[IanXC]

But this won't bring new trains to XC, just Voyagers converted to bi-mode.

I don't think Project Thor and the Electric Spine have actually been linked have they?

My understanding is that Project Thor is about lengthening XC's stock and making use of OHLE for instance between York/Doncaster and Edinburgh/Glasgow. Given there will be a requirement for new stock for Manchester-Scotland and TP North before too long overall I think its more likely than not that XC's Manchester-South Coast will be operated by pure EMUs.

 

[David10]

I don't think Project Thor and the Electric Spine have actually been linked have they?

No, but then the plan to bi-mode the Voyagers was announced before the spine was on the radar, the case to convert the entire fleet would now be stronger.

My understanding is that Project Thor is about lengthening XC's stock and making use of OHLE for instance between York/Doncaster and Edinburgh/Glasgow. Given there will be a requirement for new stock for Manchester-Scotland and TP North before too long overall I think its more likely than not that XC's Manchester-South Coast will be operated by pure EMUs.

Can't see the DfT funding a new EMU fleet for XC unless there is a pressing need for Voyagers elsewhere. And while something that can easily be overcome, currently XC's Manchester - South Coast services tend to be formed by sets that have arrived from the South West and vice versa.

 

[IanXC]

No, but then the plan to bi-mode the Voyagers was announced before the spine was on the radar, the case to convert the entire fleet would now be stronger.

The only units which can be converted are the 220s and the 1x 4car 221. As has been covered elsewhere on the forum 1 transformer/pantograph vehicle can support 4x motor vehicles, but not 5. Plus the transformer vehicle cannot also accomodate tilt equipment.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Whether the Greater Anglia Mk3s are refurbished or replaced will be decided when the franchise is relet in 2014. As the GEML has a top speed of 100mph any replacement will more likely be a Desiro / Electrostar style EMU.

True but that would preclude any future line speed improvements.

 

[ainsworth74]

True but that would preclude any future line speed improvements.

Without extra capacity improvements like quad-tracking I think it's unlikely that the GEML will ever get much further than 100/110mph, the capacity just isn't there for it to happen.

 

[Rick1984]

Can I just add the DB regio swinger would an excellent addition to the british fleet and, would be well suited to the glasgow - aberdeen service. This train is made for britain

 

[tbtc]

As for a home for the 222s I suspect ATW or Scotrail's long distance services would be a likely home (spread the improvements to the devolved nations and all that)

A 125mph unit would a waste of time with the Scotrail or the Wales & Borders franchise.

Who wants to bet we get some more of those wonderful bi (sexual?) mode IEP trains

You'd get stupidly long odds - no point in bi-mode given that the positioning moves to/from Leeds will be history which leaves only a token MML service to Scarborough, Melton and to Lincoln, which I don't hold out much hope for.

I still hold out hopes for seeing at least one of the routes between Sheffield and the ECML getting wired at the same time as the MML

I think we'll see at least one line between Sheffield and the ECML wired

I don't think they'll have time to do it in CP5 - I am confident of CP6 though. Really though the lines from Sheffield to Doncaster and Leeds are of more use for DMU replacement and XC electrification.

Now there's an idea - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eclectic
Number 3 looks the one to go for:
not following any one system, as of philosophy, medicine, etc., but selecting and using what are considered the best elements of all systems

I think that the Italian trams on the Midland Metro were built like that, all having their own specific engineering etc