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New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

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KM1991

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This is the new station grading structure for anyone that’s interested. Once a public consultation is finished on a ticket office and the TOC decides to proceed with plans to close it, all existing station staff would then align, harmonise and move onto the new grading system of CSA Level 1-5. The new multi skilled station grade salary range will be from £20,000 to £29,750.
 

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Nicholas Lewis

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In the long run I guess some sort of harmonisation regarding pay structures for all TOCs. As older staff leave, new starters join on altered T’s and C’s. New entrants for station roles to start on £20,800, before being able to gradually progress. Guards and on board members to start on £24,000 and then, I quote, “Following completion of training and attaining core competence there will be a three-stage annual salary progression of 70%, 80% and 90% respectively prior to attaining the full salary for the role”.

Old British Rail T’s and C’s to be phased out.

One thing that did stand out is “The standard Leave Entitlement for new employees will be 5 weeks and 8 days inclusive of bank and public holidays”. Where do I get some of that?!?!
Fair enough but really should have been resolved through standard negotiation forums.
 

Monty

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Terms are broadly acceptable to me as a guard, most of the changes proposed were already agreed to when we settled the last dispute and got a reduction of hours. Station staff I feel a bit sorry for and would fully understand if they reject it. New starters get utterly shafted however I fully expect it will put people off from joining the railway (perhaps that is the point?), even more so when the economy picks up and wages rise again.
 

the sniper

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The rmt have released the proposed structuring for the new station role, is it just me or is dispatch not included here

I wonder what is intended by 'handling anti-social behaviour'? There a lot of suburban stations with lone manning that are already going to see many CSAs pushed into a punchbag grade, even without actively 'handling anti-social behaviour'...
 

12LDA28C

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Personally, I voted for strike because the TOC wasn't negotiating. My reasons have changed now that negotiations are happening and the proposals are clear.

You're aware of course that the TOCs were not given a mandate to enter pay negotiations by the Transport Secretary until very recently? They literally were not allowed to negotiate.

On a better (personal) note, it is clearly stated in the document that anyone with a consistent history of booking off Sundays will be given a one off opportunity to be exempt from all Sunday working by giving written notice prior to the new protocol being implemented.

Which is a process already in place at some TOCs.

In the long run I guess some sort of harmonisation regarding pay structures for all TOCs. As older staff leave, new starters join on altered T’s and C’s. New entrants for station roles to start on £20,800, before being able to gradually progress. Guards and on board members to start on £24,000 and then, I quote, “Following completion of training and attaining core competence there will be a three-stage annual salary progression of 70%, 80% and 90% respectively prior to attaining the full salary for the role”.

Something like that is already in place at some TOCs, I believe Avanti is one of them.

It’s interesting how nobody seems to have produced a breakdown as to exactly how the proposed changes translate to savings to fund said pay rise, however. Given that the the Ts and Cs vary so wildly, yet the pay rise is “one size fits all”, one might imagine nobody has actually checked. ;)

Of course no-one has checked, was it not admitted recently that the DfT didn't even know how much money would be saved by implementing DOO and other cost-saving measures?
 

43096

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I’ve travelled on 12 car trains with no safety critical guard most days for well over a decade. Seems to work fine.
The Munich S-bahn should be mandatory visiting for any DOO debate: 12-car trains, 3 doors per car per side, both sides open at some stations (eg Hbf), driver only operation. That’s 72 doors opening and closing.
 

Andrew*Debbie

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If you’re somebody on £80k a year - you’re probably going to have a mortgage, a car, a family and other financial commitments that reflect that.

Prices going up is affecting those people too - and why should they have to give up what they work for any more than anybody else?

We are most likely going to disagree here.

Our combined (Debbie too) income is not to far off £80k. We've got a mortage and other comittments. We've had years of no or below inflation pay increases. Our employer also closed promotion rounds, so we've not had the normal opportunities to advance to a new pay grade.

Like rail, our union is in a national dispute over pay.

I've given up my car. We did not take a vacation this year. At the same time we aren't going hungry. We can afford to run the heating and aren't behind on any payments.

Someone makeing £22,000 a year does not have the options we have. They aren't going to have anything left to give up besides heating, electricty, food, bus fare to work . . ..
 

ainsworth74

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Attached are two documents which relate to the present offer with thanks to an informed source.
 

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  • PROPOSED DISPUTE RESOLUTION AGREEMENT.pdf
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  • Appendix 5 – Approved Codes of Practice.pdf
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LowLevel

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In the long run I guess some sort of harmonisation regarding pay structures for all TOCs. As older staff leave, new starters join on altered T’s and C’s. New entrants for station roles to start on £20,800, before being able to gradually progress. Guards and on board members to start on £24,000 and then, I quote, “Following completion of training and attaining core competence there will be a three-stage annual salary progression of 70%, 80% and 90% respectively prior to attaining the full salary for the role”.

Old British Rail T’s and C’s to be phased out.

One thing that did stand out is “The standard Leave Entitlement for new employees will be 5 weeks and 8 days inclusive of bank and public holidays”. Where do I get some of that?!?!
We've just had years of strike action for the DfT to agree less than 12 months ago to get rid of training pay for guards, they can shove an annualised structure. We restructured in 2022 already with the Government's blessing having spent a load of money striking. I don't see why we should change *again* to suit these national principles when we already effectively agreed a 4-5 grand pay cut for ourselves last year by taking Sundays inside for no extra pay.
 

Horizon22

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This is the new station grading structure for anyone that’s interested. Once a public consultation is finished on a ticket office and the TOC decides to proceed with plans to close it, all existing station staff would then align, harmonise and move onto the new grading system of CSA Level 1-5. The new multi skilled station grade salary range will be from £20,000 to £29,750.

As I said up thread, this needs really tidying up as there's duplication, inconsistency and typos all over the place. Seems like a rushed job and that would be a very low salary for your average Level 5 grade in London.
 

Fred26

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You're aware of course that the TOCs were not given a mandate to enter pay negotiations by the Transport Secretary until very recently? They literally were not allowed to negotiate.

Yes, now we know that. At the time we did not. Not officially, anyway.
Even if we had have known that, my reasoning still stands - negotiations were being refused, I voted to strike. Doesn't really matter who refused the negotiation.
 

KM1991

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As I said up thread, this needs really tidying up as there's duplication, inconsistency and typos all over the place. Seems like a rushed job and that would be a very low salary for your average Level 5 grade in London.
From the document: “If an existing employee has a current salary that is higher than the agreed salary for their mapped competency grouping within the overall competency framework, the employee will have their salary protected on a personal basis for five years. Thereafter, any future pay increases applied as per future company pay agreements will comprise 50% consolidated into their basic salary and 50% paid as a taxable lump sum payment until such time as their personal salary and the agreed salary for the role are aligned.”
 

Horizon22

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From the document: “If an existing employee has a current salary that is higher than the agreed salary for their mapped competency grouping within the overall competency framework, the employee will have their salary protected on a personal basis for five years. Thereafter, any future pay increases applied as per future company pay agreements will comprise 50% consolidated into their basic salary and 50% paid as a taxable lump sum payment until such time as their personal salary and the agreed salary for the role are aligned.”

Sounds like that's not going to be much harmonisation and cause a big gulf in early years between new entrants and existing staff. So much for making things easier and "more productive reforms"!
 

12LDA28C

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Yes, now we know that. At the time we did not. Not officially, anyway.
Even if we had have known that, my reasoning still stands - negotiations were being refused, I voted to strike. Doesn't really matter who refused the negotiation.

We really did know that, right from the start. Not sure how you could not be aware. Hence media / anti-Union reports stating that it was a political strike. Well of course it was/is - it was an attempt to force the Government to allow the TOCs to enter pay negotiations, which has finally happened after many months.
 

brick60000

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We are most likely going to disagree here.

Our combined (Debbie too) income is not to far off £80k. We've got a mortage and other comittments. We've had years of no or below inflation pay increases. Our employer also closed promotion rounds, so we've not had the normal opportunities to advance to a new pay grade.

Like rail, our union is in a national dispute over pay.

I've given up my car. We did not take a vacation this year. At the same time we aren't going hungry. We can afford to run the heating and aren't behind on any payments.

Someone makeing £22,000 a year does not have the options we have. They aren't going to have anything left to give up besides heating, electricty, food, bus fare to work . . ..

You may have been in a position to give up your car, but somebody on a lease hire agreement for a fixed term does not have that option. Nor does somebody that needs it for their job. Somebody with a mortgage to pay that is at a high level based on reasonably foreseeable economic conditions 5-6 years ago might be really struggling. Those individuals are no more able to foresee a crisis than anybody else.

I commend your (very!!) responsible approach to the challenges at the moment, but I would say that it is completely wrong that you have to make those choices.

You both have a comfortable combined salary, presumably have jobs with that level of responsibility, and it isn’t fair that the purchasing power that you gained from those jobs reduces through poor economic management from the government.

Nobody saw any of the crisis’ of the last year…but the amounts wasted on flawed covid contracts weren’t ‘unavoidable’ and much can be said for other mistakes made by the government in the last few years.

It’s always frustrating to see people earning hundreds of thousands on TV telling people on more “average comfortable” salaries to suck it up because they should be grateful for what they’ve got !!
 

43066

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Attached are two documents which relate to the present offer with thanks to an informed source.

To be fair I don’t think the ACAS attendance management template is materially different from the attendance at work policies already implemented by most if not all TOCs.
 

jack31439

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Initially I was sceptical but looking into the further detail, it looks like very little change if any to the T&Cs for me as fitter, at my TOC. Would love to hear more opinions from colleagues in station and on train roles.
 

KM1991

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Initially I was sceptical but looking into the further detail, it looks like very little change if any to the T&Cs for me as fitter, at my TOC. Would love to hear more opinions from colleagues in station and on train roles.
There are some changes here and there, but do I think they are detrimental to the point I would reject it? No. If this goes to a vote, I will be voting yes to accept…
 

the sniper

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We've just had years of strike action for the DfT to agree less than 12 months ago to get rid of training pay for guards, they can shove an annualised structure. We restructured in 2022 already with the Government's blessing having spent a load of money striking. I don't see why we should change *again* to suit these national principles when we already effectively agreed a 4-5 grand pay cut for ourselves last year by taking Sundays inside for no extra pay.

I'd pity new starters so much if this were to come in, they're going to paid poorly for years.

Sorry to see too the wider intent to make this industry as bad or worse than many others for frontline grades (at least) too, that's 'progress' for you. I really hate where this is all going. I really hope the leaders of this industry appreciate what they're going to do to people and it weighs heavily upon their shoulders, appreciating what's been lost on their watch. Sadly I think many will revel in it...
 

TheAlbanach_

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The station grade pay scale is a joke and is a pay cut for a lot of station staff. How is that a pay rise in any way? I honestly don’t mind having more to do in the station but to have my pay go from £32k to somewhere between 20 and 29k is not on.
 

KM1991

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The station grade pay scale is a joke and is a pay cut for a lot of station staff. How is that a pay rise in any way? I honestly don’t mind having more to do in the station but to have my pay go from £32k to somewhere between 20 and 29k is not on.
From the document: “If an existing employee has a current salary that is higher than the agreed salary for their mapped competency grouping within the overall competency framework, the employee will have their salary protected on a personal basis for five years. Thereafter, any future pay increases applied as per future company pay agreements will comprise 50% consolidated into their basic salary and 50% paid as a taxable lump sum payment until such time as their personal salary and the agreed salary for the role are aligned.”

So you’re good for 5 years, including full pay rises, after which you will start to see ***real term*** pay cuts compared to lower earning colleagues , until x amount of years later you align. To be honest, you’d be so far ahead that the alignment would take years and years and years …assuming we go back down to target 2% RPI. That’s how I see it anyway…could be wrong
 
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43066

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I'd pity new starters so much if this were to come in, they're going to paid poorly for years.

Sorry to see too the wider intent to make this industry as bad or worse than many others for frontline grades (at least) too, that's 'progress' for you. I really hate where this is all going. I really hope the leaders of this industry appreciate what they're going to do to people and it weighs heavily upon their shoulders, appreciating what's been lost on their watch. Sadly I think many will revel in it...

Unless I’m missing something there isn’t much achieved from the government’s point of view apart from ticket offices closing, which is something we all expected to happen sooner or later. Even the standardisation in pay will take years to achieve and isn’t universal
(only station grades affected).

Has this really been worth months of strikes and the cost to the economy?
 

alf

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The first page of the proposed RMT agreement states:

‘This Agreement is not intended to be legally enforceable either by or against any TOC, the RMT or any employee of any TOC.’

So what sanction have management got if LDCs (local RMT committees) subsequently refuse to implement one or many of the agreement changes, assuming they are signed off nationally by RMT after a ballot?

Southern bosses won their battle for the removal of guards on every EMU on every route (except camera less 313 units) a few years ago.

The bosses’ case was hugely strengthened because Southern went to court & won a case where ASLEF had told the first DOO driver scheduled to drive a 12 coach Gatwick train to only operate it as an empty train which he dutifully did, not opening the doors.
Southern won the right to huge damages from ASLEF & the ability to sack the driver who had taken his order from the branch secretary. This so frightened & weakened ASLEF that it aided Southern bosses’ ultimate victory.

Southern won because the earlier DOO Suburban/Brighton line agreement was legally enforceable, so the judge found for Southern.

So why was the earlier Southern DOO agreement legally enforceable whilst this proposed RDG/RMT agreement unenforceable so that TOCs cannot sue staff & RMT for breaches & equally the RMT cannot take TOCs to court if the TOCs go beyond the words in the agreement?

I suggest RMT members vote for the deal & the big immediate lump payments & then sit on their hands when it comes to implementing the unenforceable deal.
 

Solent&Wessex

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On a better (personal) note, it is clearly stated in the document that anyone with a consistent history of booking off Sundays will be given a one off opportunity to be exempt from all Sunday working by giving written notice prior to the new protocol being implemented.

But you are only exempt if the Company can employ someone else to cover it. If they can't then you have to work:

"Where an existing employee (where Sundays is currently outside the working week without a contractual commitment to work) does not currently work any rostered Sundays then they could give 12-months’ notice to not work Sundays as an extra weekend shift providing extra weekend staff can be employed to cover. If cover cannot be provided, then the employee would be required to work their rostered Sundays (the ‘commitment to work’ stands)."

One thing that did stand out is “The standard Leave Entitlement for new employees will be 5 weeks and 8 days inclusive of bank and public holidays”. Where do I get some of that?!?!

It isn't that good. The legal minimum for someone working a full time job is 28 days per year in total.

But what the document doesn't define is what is considered "a week".

At the moment my leave is defined in days - I get 30 days per year.

If "a week" is considered to be 5 days then this is an increase in 3 days overall. (5 x 5 = 25 + 8 =33). However I could loose 2 of those each year because of the new arrangements for Christmas Day and Boxing Day.

However a separate section of the documeont (in respect of spare turns) says "the principle that three days’ work constitutes a week’s work." If that is the case then 3 x 5 = 15 + 8 = 23 days, which is 7 days less than now. This would be below the legal minimum of 28 days, however that is based around a 5 day week. The Gov.uk website says that someone who only works a 3 day week is only legally entitled to 16.8 days leave a year.



Terms are broadly acceptable to me as a guard, most of the changes proposed were already agreed to when we settled the last dispute and got a reduction of hours. Station staff I feel a bit sorry for and would fully understand if they reject it. New starters get utterly shafted however I fully expect it will put people off from joining the railway (perhaps that is the point?), even more so when the economy picks up and wages rise again.


I am open minded to modernisation and change, and was hopeful that this new proposal could lead to and end to this dispute, and that I would be able to vote yes.

When I saw the headline bullet points yesterday I considered that - being selfish - not many of the proposed changes affected me that much so would therefore be acceptable. I already have Committed Sundays for example, so there is no change there.

However the devil is in the detail. And there is plenty of detail now which I do not like.

Take Spares. The document says that TOCS *MUST* produce rosters with full weeks of spares. It also says that if you have a full week of spare then you have unlimited movement and can be given any duty no matter what time it is. That means you could be moved from earlies to lates and all over the place. Even worse is that they can change your rest days at a weeks notice. So if you thought your days off would be Wednesday and Thursday a week before they can unilaterally change them to be Friday and Saturday, for example. This makes it absolutely impossible to plan anything outside work at all. A family meal? Going to a Wedding? Going to a concert or event which you need to buy tickets for? Well you can't book the day as leave to guarantee you can attend as you are on rest day so aren't in work in the first place.... until a week before when they move your rest day to a different day.

Can someone point me to other jobs where your manager can just move your weekend days off at a weeks notice and you can't do anything about it? How on earth do you plan anything at all?

It also implies that when spare changes can be made on the day of the duty subject to you being given notice. Currently I have 72 hours posted notice - i.e. they cannot alter my hours of duty and booking on times less than 72 hours before the day. This document says this reduces to 48 hours from the start of the actual shift (not the actual day concerned) but that also "Further changes can occur up to and including on the day because of service requirements with adequate notice to staff affected.". So I am meant to start work at 1200 tomorrow for a 7 hour duty finishing at 1900. I get a phone call or email in the morning saying I must now turn up at 1500 instead for a 10 hour duty not finishing till 0100? (as they can also extend your day by up to 3 hours now) This might affect out of work commitments, travel arrangements, childcare etc etc.

See also my comments about Annual Leave above, as there is no clarity on the exact numbers of days etc. The way annual leave MUST be allocated is also significantly less flexible than my current arrangements
There is no stipulation for minimum number of rest days (in fact the document expressly says that TOCS can't have a minimum number of rest days) and also states that Sunday coverage should include spares etc like any other day. There is no stipulation for a maximum turn length.
There is no stipulation for a length of spare turn (other than that it must be flexible and based around the average turn length at the depot).
For all the above it just says that the company decides. (The document elsewhere states that the RMT can not dispute or fail to agree anything implemented as a result of this agreement being accepted).
The combination of the above means (assuming the timetable stays the same and the current diagrams remain broadly similar) I could go from doing a 4 day week with 1 committed Sunday every 3 weeks (so 13 days in work every 3 weeks) to a 5 day week with 2 committed Sundays every 3 weeks (so 17 days in work every 3 weeks). So I could loose 4 days off every 3 weeks - that could involve me working an extra 60+ days per year for little to no extra money save for some extra overtime payments for the extra committed Sundays.


The stuff in regards attendance management, sickness arrangements, etc; the type of work you can do; training principles and methods; new technology; and other such things I am not that bothered about (if anything I have often thought lots of them are a bit too generous). I could even cope with the extended range of movement on spare duties i.e +/- 3 hours with a 3 hour increase in length of day (so you could finish 6 hours later than planned for example).

However my days off are my days off. I like to plan my life, go on day trips or short breaks, go out for meals, go to events. The fact that my days off can be changed at a weeks notice making planning anything like that almost impossible for much of the year is a big no no. Much like the RMT red line on DOO - this is my red line.
For example - In April this year I've been invited to a friend's wedding. By coincidence it is on a Saturday when I am rest day. So I can go. So I will book a hotel, make travel arrangements etc. But come the new rostering arrangements I may find out a week before the wedding that the Saturday is not my rest day after all, they may move my rest day to Wednesday instead. So suddenly, at a weeks notice, I can't go. Great. Sorry, no. That is unacceptable.

I'd rather take no pay rise and just stay as I am thank you.
 
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Fred26

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We really did know that, right from the start. Not sure how you could not be aware. Hence media / anti-Union reports stating that it was a political strike. Well of course it was/is - it was an attempt to force the Government to allow the TOCs to enter pay negotiations, which has finally happened after many months.

We 'knew' that but we didn't know it. It wasn't that long ago that the government actually stopped saying it was between the TOCs and the unions.

Anyway, it's irrelevant.
 

KM1991

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But you are only exempt if the Company can employ someone else to cover it. If they can't then you have to work:

"Where an existing employee (where Sundays is currently outside the working week without a contractual commitment to work) does not currently work any rostered Sundays then they could give 12-months’ notice to not work Sundays as an extra weekend shift providing extra weekend staff can be employed to cover. If cover cannot be provided, then the employee would be required to work their rostered Sundays (the ‘commitment to work’ stands)."



numbers of days etc. The way annual leave MUST be allocated is also significantly less flexible than my current arrangements
There is no stipulation for minimum number of rest days (in fact the document expressly says that TOCS can't have a minimum number of rest days) and also states that Sunday coverage should include spares etc like any other day. There is no stipulation for a maximum turn length.
There is no stipulation for a length of spare turn (other than that it must be flexible and based around the average turn length at the depot).
For all the above it just says that the company decides. (The document elsewhere states that the RMT can not dispute or fail to agree anything implemented as a result of this agreement being accepted).
The combination of the above means - assuming the timetable stays the same and the current diagrams remain broadly similar) I could go from doing a 4 day week with 1 committed Sunday every 3 weeks (so 13 days in work every 3 weeks) to a 5 day week with 2 committed Sundays every 3 weeks (so 17 days in work every 3 weeks). So I could loose 4 days off every 3 weeks - that could involve me working an extra 60+ days per year for little to no extra money save for some extra overtime payments for the extra committed Sundays.
From the Principles of Sunday Commitment Protocol: “Where Sundays are currently outside of the basic working week and an existing employee has historically not worked their rostered Sunday turns, those employees will be given a one-off opportunity prior to the implementation of this Protocol to seek an exemption from all future Sunday working by giving written notice to not work their Sunday turns. This will be granted once committed cover can be provided from within existing staffing and/or, part-time or extra weekend-only employees can be
recruited and trained to cover.”

Some of that leaves room for interpretation. Not as clear as I’d like it to be.
 
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