New offer made to RMT by Rail Delivery Group

[Andrew*Debbie]

I've been told a 14-day ballot period by an RMT rep. Your information may differ.

What does that do to the planned RMT strike on 1 Feburary?


I'm on the picket lines that day too, but normally commute by rail.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've been told a 14-day ballot period by an RMT rep. Your information may differ.

No idea. But they could recommend rejection. I can’t see them recommending acceptance, even if Mick wants to.

 

[Sleepy]

What does that do to the planned RMT strike on 1 Feburary?
I'm on the picket lines that day too, but normally commute by rail.

That day it is RMT drivers joining ASLEF members so similar level of service to previous driver strikes can be expected.

 

[Bald Rick]

What does that do to the planned RMT strike on 1 Feburary?


I'm on the picket lines that day too, but normally commute by rail.

It’s only RMT drivers striking those days. As you know, there’s not many of them, and this is different to the main RMT dispute.

 

[LAX54]

The problem with that approach is that it causes sick people to come into work who then make other people sick. Thus sick pay from day one and careful monitoring of who is taking the mick is a better approach.

That is very true, but we all know that, that is rarely followed up, and if it is they know their way around the procedure.

 

[Sleepy]

RMT are studying the details of the offer so no update on this can be expected until next week.

 

[Goldfish62]

What does that do to the planned RMT strike on 1 Feburary?

What RMT strike on 1st Feb? The only one I know of on that date is for drivers only.

 

[LAX54]

It’s only RMT drivers striking those days. As you know, there’s not many of them, and this is different to the main RMT dispute.

But of course the media has muddied it so much, no one knows (public and some staff!) which dispute strike is which !

 

[43066]

No idea. But they could recommend rejection. I can’t see them recommending acceptance, even if Mick wants to.

I could see TMs being more willing to accept this than ticket office and station grades, so perhaps depends on the split in numbers between the two.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What RMT strike on 1st Feb? The only one I know of on that date is for drivers only.

That’s still a strike by some members of the RMT though!

 

[KM1991]

I could see TMs being more willing to accept this than ticket office and station grades, so perhaps depends on the split in numbers between the two.

It’s going to come down to a TOC by TOC basis. Could end up in a situation where half the TOCs settle and the other half don’t. What happens then…

 

[12LDA28C]

That’s still a strike by some members of the RMT though!

Indeed, although very few. However ASLEF are on strike on February 1st and 3rd of course.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s going to come down to a TOC by TOC basis. Could end up in a situation where half the TOCs settle and the other half don’t. What happens then…

That would be very difficult for the RMT. No doubt they will try to avoid that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==

I could see TMs being more willing to accept this than ticket office and station grades, so perhaps depends on the split in numbers between the two.

Difficult to say. The pay offer has much more impact on station staff, as they are paid less.

 

[LowLevel]

The mood music doesn't sound good.

"Why should we agree to throw away everything we've sought to have and protect over the last however many decades in order to accept a below inflation increase" seems to be the prevailing opinion, even disregarding ticket offices.

It is a fact that if, and I know it's a humongous if, the good times ever come back, nothing else will ever be given in exchange for these T&Cs.

Once they're gone they're gone.

 

[KM1991]

Difficult to say. The pay offer has much more impact on station staff, as they are paid less.

Strings attached for sure. But station grades are set for a 13% rise over 2 years (which will be close to 13% in one go depending on pay anniversary date) + the lump back pay which would sway quite a few people to vote for it.

Do not underestimate workplace strike fatigue either, if it goes to a vote I would guess staff would vote for it.

 

[12LDA28C]

The mood music doesn't sound good.

"Why should we agree to throw away everything we've sought to have and protect over the last however many decades in order to accept a below inflation increase"

As has been stated before, nobody realistically expects a pay rise in line with inflation. That was just the start point for negotiation.

Many RMT staff have lost a lot of money during the strikes and some have started coming into work on strike days.

Whilst I expect many members will indeed reject the deal in the ballot, I think it might be quite a close call and may even get accepted by a small majority.

 

[LowLevel]

As has been stated before, nobody realistically expects a pay rise in line with inflation. That was just the start point for negotiation.

Many RMT staff have lost a lot of money during the strikes and some have started coming into work on strike days.

Whilst I expect many members will indeed reject the deal in the ballot, I think it might be quite a close call and may even get accepted by a small majority.

I definitely don't expect a pay rise in line with inflation. That's a given.

The terms and conditions bonfire is a lot to take but as you say, how people shout in the mess rooms and online isn't always how things actually go.

Things like sick pay are things you don't always value until you unexpectedly rely on it.

Not bothered about 7 day working, I do it anyway.

Some people have a bit to gain, some have a lot to lose.

 

[yorksrob]

I can see them staying neutral if it went to a vote.

Why do you say they are not allowed to recommend rejecting it? What is that based on? A gentlemen’s agreement for this deal in particular?

My own Union has recommended me not to vote for pay offers in the past, so I'd be surprised if the RMT can't.

 

[Bald Rick]

Strings attached for sure. But station grades are set for a 13% rise over 2 years (which will be close to 13% in one go depending on pay anniversary date) + the lump back pay which would sway quite a few people to vote for it.

Do not underestimate workplace strike fatigue either, if it goes to a vote I would guess staff would vote for it.

Agreed. The back pay element is significant - for most front line station staff, it’s going to mean at least £1500 in their pocket straight away after tax / insurance / pension contributions etc.

 

[Fred26]

I definitely don't expect a pay rise in line with inflation. That's a given.

The terms and conditions bonfire is a lot to take but as you say, how people shout in the mess rooms and online isn't always how things actually go.

Things like sick pay are things you don't always value until you unexpectedly rely on it.

Not bothered about 7 day working, I do it anyway.

Some people have a bit to gain, some have a lot to lose.

Many RMT staff have lost a lot of money during the strikes and some have started coming into work on strike days.

Whilst I expect many members will indeed reject the deal in the ballot, I think it might be quite a close call and may even get accepted by a small majority.

This is the thing; some posters have suggested that x-TOC does this, so it should be okay for y-TOC, but the problem is we aren't starting with a blank page. Decades of privatisation have destroyed any alignment between grades across TOCs - in some cases even within TOCs, for instance where the GN was once aligned with the West Anglia lines, both are now part of other networks.

So yes, some TOCs may have all station grades as one multi-skilled grade, some may have everyone with an individual role, but what are the other Ts&Cs at those TOCs? It's the overall package that needs to be looked at.

 

[12LDA28C]

This is the thing; some posters have suggested that x-TOC does this, so it should be okay for y-TOC, but the problem is we aren't starting with a blank page. Decades of privatisation have destroyed any alignment between grades across TOCs - in some cases even within TOCs, for instance where the GN was once aligned with the West Anglia lines, both are now part of other networks.

So yes, some TOCs may have all station grades as one multi-skilled grade, some may have everyone with an individual role, but what are the other Ts&Cs at those TOCs? It's the overall package that needs to be looked at.

Which is why once the pay deal has been sorted, the various changes to Ts & Cs will be devolved to each individual TOC to sort out.

 

[Philip]

Is it likely that the busier stations will have booking office staff being safety critical-trained to dispatch trains and vice versa dispatchers covering in the ticket office, as part of the new multi-skilled role?

 

[43066]

Is it likely that the busier stations will have booking office staff being safety critical-trained to dispatch trains and vice versa dispatchers covering in the ticket office, as part of the new multi-skilled role?

It will depend on the location. If you look at what has happened at LU as an example the vast majority of ticket offices will most likely close, and staff will be moved onto the concourse/platforms.

Station staff at many national rail locations are already multi faceted and perform a range of roles including dispatching trains, assisting passengers and undertaking cleaning duties. That gives you an indication of what might be expected from the new “multi skilled” role.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it likely that the busier stations will have booking office staff being safety critical-trained to dispatch trains and vice versa dispatchers covering in the ticket office, as part of the new multi-skilled role?

Anything is possible, and would be subject to local arrangements. but I’d be surprised if dispatchers will cover in the ticket offices, as there won’t be many of ticket offices left!

 

[KM1991]

Is it likely that the busier stations will have booking office staff being safety critical-trained to dispatch trains and vice versa dispatchers covering in the ticket office, as part of the new multi-skilled role?

Gateline too. Apparently that’s the master plan in order to increase flexibility and therefore efficiency…which will make savings later down the line when redundancies and natural wastage happen.

Whether it will actually happen is another story though.

 

[LAX54]

As has been stated before, nobody realistically expects a pay rise in line with inflation. That was just the start point for negotiation.

Many RMT staff have lost a lot of money during the strikes and some have started coming into work on strike days.

Whilst I expect many members will indeed reject the deal in the ballot, I think it might be quite a close call and may even get accepted by a small majority.

1989/90 it went on so long, it ended up falling like a jenga tower !

 

[43066]

Gateline too. Apparently that’s the master plan in order to increase flexibility and therefore efficiency…which will make savings later down the line when redundancies and natural wastage happen.

Whether it will actually happen is another story though.

The more I think about it the more I can see how this will seem like a pretty poor offer for ticket office staff, as I gather they generally don’t do any of the general station work such as cleaning(?)

Your typical platform staff will do cleaning including toilets etc. and of course work much more extreme shifts than ticket office opening hours, including nights at many locations, so that’s a likely indication of what they may be expected to do going forward.

 

[Buffer stop]

If they don’t it could be an absolute PR disaster for them. Following the last offer all the coverage was how the government had torpedoed the talks by putting in a DOO clause at the 11th hour when an agreement was close. The government then removes the DOO clause and slightly improves the offer. To many that would look like an offer that could and should be accepted and rather than all the comments at the time about how stupid the government were for bringing DOO into the dispute it would look like a clever move and a trap the RMT has blindly stumbled into.

Putting the offer to Members is one thing actually recommending it is another and I'm 100% sure they will not recommend it.

 

[12LDA28C]

Is it likely that the busier stations will have booking office staff being safety critical-trained to dispatch trains and vice versa dispatchers covering in the ticket office, as part of the new multi-skilled role?

I would be surprised if that happened as that would blur the line between retail and operations which have traditionally (at least since privatisation) been quite separate departments.

Although of course many years ago under BR, a stationmaster (or later Senior Railman / Chargeman etc) could sell tickets, sweep the platforms, operate a ground frame, couple/uncouple locos and undertake any other duties as required!

 

[Towers]

The big question here might be whether members in the guard grade, who will likely be very much aware that their strike action has done the vast majority of the heavy lifting here, will consider that their aspect of the deal is worth settling for, and if so whether they are willing to continue taking action to support the other grades on their union's say so. It's a complicated dynamic!