New Overground line names progress?

[renegademaster]

Which lines of the overground are any well-heeled visitors likely to use? The delights of Chingford and Penge are unlikely to attract them. They are far more likely to not use public transport at all. Even for average earning tourists the overground is mostly irrelevant, unless they book some far flung Airbnb or Travelodge or something.

Shoreditch and Camden are certainly very touristy

 

[Mike99]

We are 500 odd posts in so I thought a reminder of the new names might help. Hope this helps a reader or two. I have cut and pasted from one of the self-praising TfL pages.

• Lioness (currently known as Watford Junction to Euston) - yellow
• Mildmay (currently known as Richmond and Clapham Junction to Stratford) - blue
• Windrush (currently known as Highbury & Islington to New Cross, Clapham Junction, Crystal Palace and West Croydon) - red
• Weaver (currently known as Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt and Chingford) - maroon
• Suffragette (currently known as Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside) - green
• Liberty (currently known as Romford to Upminster) - grey

 

[BeijingDave]

Well that's a nice way to slag off a town and the people who visit it.

I do know tourism - I work for a large international Travel group that deals with both outgoing and incoming tourists so i really do understand foregn tourists as i deal with them every day.

Doubtful that someone who does would say 'tough titty' to any suggestion of something that makes their lives easier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

We are 500 odd posts in so I thought a reminder of the new names might help. Hope this helps a reader or two. I have cut and pasted from one of the self-praising TfL pages.

• Lioness (currently known as Watford Junction to Euston) - yellow
• Mildmay (currently known as Richmond and Clapham Junction to Stratford) - blue
• Windrush (currently known as Highbury & Islington to New Cross, Clapham Junction, Crystal Palace and West Croydon) - red
• Weaver (currently known as Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt and Chingford) - maroon
• Suffragette (currently known as Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside) - green
• Liberty (currently known as Romford to Upminster) - grey

Herein lies my point. A tourist struggling to say Mildmay or Suffragette may not make themselves understood. And may even face the howls of derision that the English specialise in when confronted with an American saying 'Leicester Square'.

As someone with a high degree of working proficiency in a quite different language (Chinese) and some proficiency in Spanish and German, there is nothing more discouraging or disheartening than being laughed at or simply greeted with a shrug when you are at a basic level and fail to make yourself understood.

 

[stuu]

Herein lies my point. A tourist struggling to say Mildmay or Suffragette may not make themselves understood. And may even face the howls of derision that the English specialise in when confronted with an American saying 'Leicester Square'.

As someone with a high degree of working proficiency in a quite different language (Chinese) and some proficiency in Spanish and German, there is nothing more discouraging or disheartening than being laughed at or simply greeted with a shrug when you are at a basic level and fail to make yourself understood.

Just as well all lines in Tokyo are numbered, would be much harder to get round if you had to figure out how to read and pronounce Marunouchi Line, and be met with howls of derision

 

[jon0844]

If someone spoke to me with an odd pronunciation I wouldn't deride them and don't think most people would. Sure I might chuckle inside and comment to a friend/colleague after, but I don't think we need to consider the naming of lines based on how some people might struggle to pronounce them.

I very much doubt there are other countries determining what to call things based on how us Brits might pronounce them when we go there.

 

[thomalex]

We are 500 odd posts in so I thought a reminder of the new names might help. Hope this helps a reader or two. I have cut and pasted from one of the self-praising TfL pages.

• Lioness (currently known as Watford Junction to Euston) - yellow
• Mildmay (currently known as Richmond and Clapham Junction to Stratford) - blue
• Windrush (currently known as Highbury & Islington to New Cross, Clapham Junction, Crystal Palace and West Croydon) - red
• Weaver (currently known as Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt and Chingford) - maroon
• Suffragette (currently known as Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside) - green
• Liberty (currently known as Romford to Upminster) - grey

And what they were originally going to be before the decision was made to politicise them

• Watford Local (currently known as Watford Junction to Euston) - yellow
• North London (currently known as Richmond and Clapham Junction to Stratford) - blue
• East London (currently known as Highbury & Islington to New Cross, Clapham Junction, Crystal Palace and West Croydon) - red
• Lea Valley (currently known as Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt and Chingford) - maroon
• Barking (currently known as Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside) - green
• Emerson Park (currently known as Romford to Upminster) - grey

 

[renegademaster]

And what they were originally going to be before the decision was made to politicise them

• Watford Local (currently known as Watford Junction to Euston) - yellow
• North London (currently known as Richmond and Clapham Junction to Stratford) - blue
• East London (currently known as Highbury & Islington to New Cross, Clapham Junction, Crystal Palace and West Croydon) - red
• Lea Valley (currently known as Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt and Chingford) - maroon
• Barking (currently known as Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside) - green
• Emerson Park (currently known as Romford to Upminster) - grey

I think those are the ones that got given to Boris which he turned down. If he didn't we'd have more neutral names today , and apart from Emerson park, which no tourist will be on anyone, quite easy to pronounce

 

[BeijingDave]

If someone spoke to me with an odd pronunciation I wouldn't deride them

Probably because you're educated and/or you have some civility towards non-locals.

As a Northerner in London, I personally remember being chuckled at for pronouncing Holborn with an 'l'.

 

[renegademaster]

Probably because you're educated and/or you have some civility towards non-locals.

As a Northerner in London, I personally remember being chuckled at for pronouncing Holborn with an 'l'.

To be fair, I got the same from a Northern ticket office seller for not pronouncing the 'f' in Keighley

 

[BeijingDave]

To be fair, I got the same from a Northern ticket office seller for not pronouncing the 'f' in Keighley

Northerners can be equally discourteous.

Although it sounds like that guy had a speech impediment. It should really be 'Keithley'.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think those are the ones that got given to Boris which he turned down. If he didn't we'd have more neutral names today , and apart from Emerson park, which no tourist will be on anyone, quite easy to pronounce

Why did he turn them down? Classic British sneering at “geekiness” perhaps?

As for the Barking Line, I’d be more inclined to call it the Midland Line as it was of course part of the Midland. Tottenham and Hampstead perhaps?

 

[Via Bank]

Do we know if the announcements on the platforms have been updated yet? All I’ve heard thus far is that the announcements on the 378s have been updated.

The Worldline “Transport for London travel information” at Stratford doesn’t seem to be able to manage to announce Overground suspensions/delays in general, it did not mention the part suspension on the Mildmay line yesterday. I am aware their system is likely managed by Elizabeth Line rather than LO.

 

[BeijingDave]

I’d be more inclined to call it the Midland Line as it was of course part of the Midland.

Unfortunately hugely confusing for Nottingham daytrippers trying to find their way back to the MML.

Anyway, it's going to be wonderful (sarcasm tag) when Reform get in and we get the Farage line, the Metric Martyrs line, the Rogan line, the Auslander Raus! line and all other sorts of wonderful politicised nonsense.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Shoreditch and Camden are certainly very touristy

indeed and both can be reached by other means too including the northern, elizabeth, met and circle lines too

Doubtful that someone who does would say 'tough titty' to any suggestion of something that makes their lives easier.

Why not? I'm realistic enough to know that spending money on changing how everything works in the UK to satisfy a small amount of rail users is just not going to happen.

Herein lies my point. A tourist struggling to say Mildmay or Suffragette may not make themselves understood. And may even face the howls of derision that the English specialise in when confronted with an American saying 'Leicester Square'.

Well the reason people do deride Americans for their pronunciation is because English just so happens to be their first language, which isnt the case for say, chinese japanese spanish german people, which is why people wouldnt laugh at them for trying

 

[BeijingDave]

I'm realistic enough to know that spending money on changing how everything works in the UK to satisfy a small amount of rail users is just not going to happen.

You're delving into nonsense now. It's clearly more costly to rebrand as 'Mildmay', 'Lioness' etc than just keep the Overground orange colour scheme and call them 'Overground 1', 'Overground 2' and so on. If they even have to be labelled.

The mid-Cheshire line is never referred to on any signage as that. 'Destination: Chester (via Stockport)' works just fine at Manchester Piccadilly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

Maybe we should name all those trains too: The Northwich Limited, The Delamere Forest Express, The Cuddington Flyer, The Master Hatter? Or we could just refer to them by their departure time.

 

[Goldfish62]

The mid-Cheshire line is never referred to on any signage as that. 'Destination: Chester (via Stockport)' works just fine at Manchester Piccadilly.

I've been on the the mid-Cheshire line and it doesn't strike me is as part of an intensive urban metro system. And that's when Northern actually bother to operate the advertised services.

Over 550 posts and if people still don't get that improved wayfinding by clearly designating individual lines in a dense urban public transport system is a good thing then they never will.

 

[BeijingDave]

Over 550 posts and if people still don't get that improved wayfinding by clearly designating individual lines in a dense urban public transport system is a good thing then they never will.

No, I don't, because as a dweller of one of the world's major capitals I find it much easier to deal with 'Line 1/(informally) The Red Line' in Beijing than I ever would using an archaic Chinese name for it.

I could reasonably ask: how many major metropolises have you actually lived in? (FAO Blackpool Boy... Blackpool doesn't count)

 

[Goldfish62]

No, I don't, because as a dweller of one of the world's major capitals I find it much easier to deal with 'Line 1/(informally) The Red Line' in Beijing than I ever would using an archaic Chinese name for it.

So you're contradicting yourself. First you say that individual line designations aren't useful, then you cite an example of using an individual line designation.

 

[BeijingDave]

So you're contradicting yourself. First you say that individual line designations aren't useful, then you cite an example of using an individual line designation.

I haven't contradicted myself at all. My position is that attaching politicised, ill-thought-out names to everything is pointless.

 

[Goldfish62]

I could reasonably ask: how many major metropolises have you actually lived in? (FAO Blackpool Boy... Blackpool doesn't count)

What on earth has that got to do with anything? But if you must know I've lived in London and worked there even longer and have travelled using public transport in many other metropolises. I've not come a single urban transport network where individual lines aren't distinguished in some way.

I'm right now looking at my copy of the rather splendid "Metro Maps of the World" and cannot find a single example where individual lines are not distinguished from each other.

 

[BeijingDave]

What on earth has that got to do with anything? But if you must know I've lived in London and worked there even longer and have travelled using public transport in many other metropolises. I've not come a single urban transport network where individual lines aren't distinguished in some way.

If you actually read back, my position is that unnecessary naming rather than a simple colour and number is much more difficult for out-of-towners to deal with.

 

[Goldfish62]

I haven't contradicted myself at all. My position is that attaching politicised, ill-thought-out names to everything is pointless.

Ah, so it's the names , not that the fact that the lines are individually distinguished that you object to. Well, you should have made that in the first place.

And by the way, London is not the same as Beijing, any more than Berlin is the same as Tokyo.

 

[BeijingDave]

Ah, so it's the names , not that the fact that the lines are individually distinguished that you object to. Well, you should have made that in the first place.

And by the way, London is not the same as Beijing, any more than Berlin is the same as Tokyo.

London is the same as Beijing insofar as it has a high number of non-native speakers visiting or working there.

 

[Goldfish62]

London is the same as Beijing insofar as it has a high number of non-native speakers visiting or working there.

I can imagine the howls of outrage on here as well as as elsewhere if the Overground lines had been given numbers rather than names, given that line names are a long-running tradition.

Names are easier to remember than numbers. I'm not going to get into a debate about the suitability of the names because that's just as political as those claiming that the names are politicised (most likely without actually finding out about the origins of of the names).

 

[Wolfie]

No, I don't, because as a dweller of one of the world's major capitals I find it much easier to deal with 'Line 1/(informally) The Red Line' in Beijing than I ever would using an archaic Chinese name for it.

I could reasonably ask: how many major metropolises have you actually lived in? (FAO Blackpool Boy... Blackpool doesn't count)

Three.... and only one used line numbers (Paris). The other two were London and New York.

 

[Lewisham2221]

No, I don't, because as a dweller of one of the world's major capitals I find it much easier to deal with 'Line 1/(informally) The Red Line' in Beijing than I ever would using an archaic Chinese name for it.

I could reasonably ask: how many major metropolises have you actually lived in? (FAO Blackpool Boy... Blackpool doesn't count)

Presumably you also believe that all station names should be abolished and replaced with numerical identifiers instead?

"Platform 2 for the 14.15 line 5 service to 139"

 

[BeijingDave]

I can imagine the howls of outrage on here as well as as elsewhere if the Overground lines had been given numbers rather than names, given that line names are a long-running tradition.

We can go around in circles with this, and I am sure we will.

But the Overground lines have never been named, and are quite distinct from the Underground.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

Presumably you also believe that all station names should be abolished and replaced with numerical identifiers instead?

"Platform 2 for the 14.15 line 5 service to 139"

No, not at all.

Again, read back... I quite gladly acknowledge that tradition is important, I wouldn't for a moment want the Piccadilly line to be renamed for example.

But I also write that naming loads of stuff diminishes the things that are named. It is really quite British to recognise that while some lines are named, not all require it. While some services are called 'The Master Cutler', 'The Flying Scotsman', 'The Clansman', others are simply designated by their departure time or code.

Also, if we are to take things to the extremes of your example: 'presumably' you also believe that we should announce 'The Emily Bronte platform for the mid-afternoon Wharfe Valley service to Ilkley'.

 

[Goldfish62]

We can go around in circles with this, and I am sure we will.

But the Overground lines have never been named, and are quite distinct from the Underground.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

I get the impression you're not a regular user of the Overground. I am, at least a couple of times a month. In particular there's a group of stations in the Kilburn / Kensal Rise area which I have cause to use and which are on two separate lines. It often throw me as to which station will take me where. Having individual line names just makes it easier. That's what it's all about. Making things that little bit easier.

And just because the Overground lines have never been named surely doesn't mean that they never should be. In fact they should have been right from the start.

 

[BeijingDave]

I get the impression you're not a regular user of the Overground.

Correct, I am not, since I live in Beijing.

And it's way more straightforward to tell my friend 'Get to x bar by taking Line 4 then Line 2 to Dongzhimen, or if you must think of it this way... the green line then the blue line' (and know that he can navigate there with his vocabulary that doesn't extend to knowing some bizarre names based on Chinese cultural references).

 

[Sunil_P]

At Glasgow Central back in June, I managed to get a ticket to "Levven", instead of the correct "Lee-ven"

Guy behind the counter didn't correct me, maybe he didn't know either!