New Overground line names progress?

[Dstock7080]

delete

 

[Mikey C]

And what they were originally going to be before the decision was made to politicise them

• Watford Local (currently known as Watford Junction to Euston) - yellow
• North London (currently known as Richmond and Clapham Junction to Stratford) - blue
• East London (currently known as Highbury & Islington to New Cross, Clapham Junction, Crystal Palace and West Croydon) - red
• Lea Valley (currently known as Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt and Chingford) - maroon
• Barking (currently known as Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside) - green
• Emerson Park (currently known as Romford to Upminster) - grey

All of which being far more intuitive for visitors or occasional users.

And for those of you about to retort with the "political" Elizabeth and Jubilee Line names, those are massively more high profile, and thus well known to occasional users than commuter lines (Watford DC and Lea Valley lines) and orbital services created out of NR infrastructure (North London, East London and Goblin).

And two wrongs don't make a right anyway.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Correct, I am not, since I live in Beijing.

And it's way more straightforward to tell my friend 'Get to x bar by taking Line 4 then Line 2 to Dongzhimen, or if you must think of it this way... the green line then the blue line' (and know that he can navigate there with his vocabulary that doesn't extend to knowing some bizarre names based on Chinese cultural references).

The "new" lines are colour coded. It is still necessary to be able to determine which station you need to board, alight and interchange at. And a maximum of 6 (if you were using all of the Overground lines, which is unlikely) "new" words to negotiate which, I will repeat, are also accompanied by colour coding.

 

[Goldfish62]

Correct, I am not, since I live in Beijing.

And it's way more straightforward to tell my friend 'Get to x bar by taking Line 4 then Line 2 to Dongzhimen, or if you must think of it this way... the green line then the blue line' (and know that he can navigate there with his vocabulary that doesn't extend to knowing some bizarre names based on Chinese cultural references).

The Overground lines now have their own colours to go with the names. That is a good thing, yes?

 

[paninaro]

All of which being far more intuitive for visitors or occasional users.

I would dispute the intuitiveness of an East London Line where more stations than not are outside East London

 

[jon0844]

What I don't get is that even changing to Overground 1, Overground 2 would still require the same work - from new signs and announcements, to new maps.

Plus London Overground is the umbrella name for all of the line names, so wouldn't it seem odd to have a route finding sign with...

London Overground
London Overground 1

...written on it?

The fact LO still remains on signage means anyone who hates the name can ignore them and just treat them all as LO as they did before.

 

[Wolfie]

I would dispute the intuitiveness of an East London Line where more stations than not are outside East London

Agreed. Similarly naming a line after one end only (Barking) when it's actually semi-orbital. Actually more likely to introduce errors and confusion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

What I don't get is that even changing to Overground 1, Overground 2 would still require the same work - from new signs and announcements, to new maps.

Plus London Overground is the umbrella name for all of the line names, so wouldn't it seem odd to have a route finding sign with...

London Overground
London Overground 1

...written on it?

The fact LO still remains on signage means anyone who hates the name can ignore them and just treat them all as LO as they did before.

Some folk are on a culture wars gig. Others think that everything is done better elsewhere.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If only all the mass of resultant discussions on this issue could be harnessed, converted into electricity and used to power the Overground trains!

 

[miklcct]

The departure board at Liverpool Street is now showing "Weaver line".

 

[Mikey C]

I would dispute the intuitiveness of an East London Line where more stations than not are outside East London

The services may split to 4 different destinations south of the river, but all run through the same ex East London Line Brunel Tunnel under the Thames, in east London

Just like all Thameslink services run across the Thames and through the same central London core, even if most of the stations are nowhere near the Thames.

 

[bicbasher]

East London line if they’re off to Shoreditch or some other trendy place. It’s also a bit more akin to the underground with the frequency.

It's fair to say the Windrush core between Dalston Junction and Surrey Quays is akin to frequencies on the tube in Zone 1 and the Elizabeth line core section.

The Mildmay from Willesden Junction to Stratford and the Windrush between New Cross Gate and Sydenham is at a similar level of frequency to the Uxbridge branch of the Met.

 

[Goldfish62]

If only all the mass of resultant discussions on this issue could be harnessed, converted into electricity and used to power the Overground trains!

Brilliant!

 

[Blackpool boy]

You're delving into nonsense now. It's clearly more costly to rebrand as 'Mildmay', 'Lioness' etc than just keep the Overground orange colour scheme and call them 'Overground 1', 'Overground 2' and so on. If they even have to be labelled.

Why is it more costly as you would still have to print something up for it?

No, I don't, because as a dweller of one of the world's major capitals I find it much easier to deal with 'Line 1/(informally) The Red Line' in Beijing than I ever would using an archaic Chinese name for it.

I could reasonably ask: how many major metropolises have you actually lived in? (FAO Blackpool Boy... Blackpool doesn't count)

You find it much easier however just a quick look at wiki seems to offer an alternate view of how the beijing metro is labelled with both names and numbers - for extra confusion for you

But once again - there is no way that london will change how its naming its lines ( which keeps it inline with the rest of the rail based transport system in london) just for the sake of a small minority of tourists. In fact i cant think of anywhere in the world that has changed how it numbers/names/alphabetises its lines just for the sake of tourists.

Im not sure what living in a metropolis has got to do with anything if I'm honest

 

[bicbasher]

I've received the large print Tube Map today and they have the correct lines and no printing error for the Mildmay line.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Why is it more costly as you would still have to print something up for it?

You find it much easier however just a quick look at wiki seems to offer an alternate view of how the beijing metro is labelled with both names and numbers - for extra confusion for you

But once again - there is no way that london will change how its naming its lines ( which keeps it inline with the rest of the rail based transport system in london) just for the sake of a small minority of tourists. In fact i cant think of anywhere in the world that has changed how it numbers/names/alphabetises its lines just for the sake of tourists.

Im not sure what living in a metropolis has got to do with anything if I'm honest

Also, the green line, the other green line, the other other green line etc. And what appears to be two very separate "line 17"s. Take the Green line from Fengtai Nanlu...

 

[renegademaster]

What I don't get is that even changing to Overground 1, Overground 2 would still require the same work - from new signs and announcements, to new maps.

Plus London Overground is the umbrella name for all of the line names, so wouldn't it seem odd to have a route finding sign with...

London Overground
London Overground 1

...written on it?

The fact LO still remains on signage means anyone who hates the name can ignore them and just treat them all as LO as they did before.

If went with numbers , the way the announcements would probably go would be

Arriving on platform 1 is the 1826 London Overground Line 4 service to Highbury and Islington.....

The main identity would be "Line <identifier>" and Overground placed before it if it needs context, for example on the tube announcements for disruption

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

In fact i cant think of anywhere in the world that has changed how it numbers/names/alphabetises its lines just for the sake of tourists.

The New York metro got it's alphanumeric system when all it's predecessors got merged into MTA. Keeping the "every line only has a name and never anything else" is going to get increasingly unwieldy when all the National Rail short distance services get given to TfL.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

I would dispute the intuitiveness of an East London Line where more stations than not are outside East London

It's the only line South London that goes to East London, like how pre Thameslink, the Northern line was the the line in South London that went to North London

 

[jon0844]

Given the hatred aimed at the Mayor for these names, I wonder what people would think if there was a campaign to rename all the existing lines to letters/numbers.

Would cost be a factor then, or would people go for it just to get rid of the 'woke agenda'?

It reminds me of the many people who loved the limited edition liveries put on various rolling stock but were the same people who said it was a total waste of money when they saw a LGBTQ/rainbow livery put on.

 

[renegademaster]

Would cost be a factor then, or would people go for it just to get rid of the 'woke agenda'?

Yes.
It's a very lazy form of argumentation to accuse anyone who makes a critical comment as a bigot, as silly as accusing anyone who would have preferred the name crossrail to stay as being a communist

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

It reminds me of the many people who loved the limited edition liveries put on various rolling stock but were the same people who said it was a total waste of money when they saw a LGBTQ/rainbow livery put on.

Do you have any evidence of this person actually existing?

 

[Class15]

Serious question, when these 2 events happen, what line will the service come under?

Stratford - Camden Road - Primrose Hill - Queens Park - Willesden Junction Low Level

Stratford - Kensal Green Jn - City Loop Lines - Willesden Junction Low Level - Watford Junction

Primrose Hill might be mildmay, but what about the Stratford - Watford service when that runs?

 

[norbitonflyer]

You're delving into nonsense now. It's clearly more costly to rebrand as 'Mildmay', 'Lioness' etc than just keep the Overground orange colour scheme and call them 'Overground 1', 'Overground 2' and so on. If they even have to be labelled.

But getting rid of the spaghetti explosion on the map was the most important part. It would cost tghe same whatever you callewd the individual lines.

 

[Thirteen]

I used the Mildmay Line today and have to say, the branding is really good for the various lines and more importantly it's a lot clearer in terms of wayfinding because of the new colours.

 

[jon0844]

Yes.
It's a very lazy form of argumentation to accuse anyone who makes a critical comment as a bigot, as silly as accusing anyone who would have preferred the name crossrail to stay as being a communist

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==


Do you have any evidence of this person actually existing?

Of course I do as I called the person out on Twitter personally - and he was backed up by others who were equally appalled at the money spent on painting a train for virtue signalling etc.

One might say that it's a lazy form of argumentation to accuse anyone who makes a critical comment as being a liar. In fact, I'd say it's highly disrespectful - but you do you.

Not sure what the communist stuff was about. I still refer to the Elizabeth Line as Crossrail to many, but acknowledge it's public facing name and don't demand it to be called Crossrail - any more than the Goblin line and all the other lines that railway people refer to by other names.

 

[ijmad]

Also, the green line, the other green line, the other other green line etc. And what appears to be two very separate "line 17"s. Take the Green line from Fengtai Nanlu...

It's under construction. The missing piece is opening imminently.

 

[Wolfie]

I used the Mildmay Line today and have to say, the branding is really good for the various lines and more importantly it's a lot clearer in terms of wayfinding because of the new colours.

.... and that is the proof of the pudding....

 

[renegademaster]

communist stuff

I've seen people accuse people only not liking the name because they have grudge against the royals, that's silly too. By just implying every critic is a bigot your ignoring the majority of criticisms on here which have got nothing to do with the backgrounds of the names

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

Also, the green line, the other green line, the other other green line etc. And what appears to be two very separate "line 17"s. Take the Green line from Fengtai Nanlu...

London's got way too many lines to fit into a solely colour line system , but you could have "Overground Red" "Overground Blue" etc , which would also help to highlight it's ultimately a different mode from the underground, you can expect lower frequencies and longer dwells etc. It feels like TfL's strategy at times is to try and merge all it's different rail based modes into one branding blob, with the Elizabeth line and Overground silently getting turnt into additional tube lines but I don't think that's a good idea.

 

[jon0844]

I've never accused anyone of being a bigot, or communist. Plenty of people have claimed the line names are silly and talked of woke, virtue signalling and brought up the Mayor with accusations of him being soft on knife crime etc. It has been heavily politicised and not by me.

I've said over and over - they're just names. People will get used to it, and some people will cry themselves to sleep over them.

 

[stuu]

It feels like TfL's strategy at times is to try and merge all it's different rail based modes into one branding blob, with the Elizabeth line and Overground silently getting turnt into additional tube lines but I don't think that's a good idea.

Why would that be a bad thing? The single most important detail is the frequency of the service. For the average customer, nothing else really matters. It's all just boring, irrelevant technical or legal differences, which don't make the slightest difference to the travelling experience. There is of course a case for nudging people towards the higher capacity services, so the EL should be differentiated, but there is fundamentally no difference between the Windrush line and the Metropolitan line from the average passengers' point of view

 

[Thirteen]

I assume it's going to take a few weeks for the new names to be changed on maps across the entire TfL network, the District Line still has the Overground orange for the likes of Richmond, Kensington (Olympia), Whitechapel, Barking and Upminster for example.

 

[bicbasher]

I assume it's going to take a few weeks for the new names to be changed on maps across the entire TfL network, the District Line still has the Overground orange for the likes of Richmond, Kensington (Olympia), Whitechapel, Barking and Upminster for example.

LUL units will only be changed if there's a big change, so you'll still have the issue of Victoria line diagrams showing four stations with the orange Overground label despite them all being on different lines.

 

[renegademaster]

The single most important detail is the frequency of the service

Of which the overground has the lowest and if it's the first interaction someone has of the network, they are going to think they'll need a 15 minute wait for everything. I am aware this is true of the extremities of the metropolitan line but the metropolitan line at times feels like a mode in its own right.

On the other hand the (deep level) tube lines have negative perceptions that the other modes don't share. Had to spend a while convincing my partner the Elizabeth Line won't be noisy and smelly like the central line and she shouldn't take the Heathrow Express.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

If we want to get more radical, the lines with a diversity of stopping patterns and branches (Like Metropolitan, Weaver, Elizabeth line, Thameslink etc) each service should either get route numbers or letters. Instead of the Amersham Fast , you got the Met A, the slow is Met B, Watford is Met C Etc