New platforms for Liverpool Lime Street

[NotATrainspott]

People are talking about HS2 Phase 3 going to Scotland. I can't see that missing out the north east, but I also have a strong suspicion we'll have an upgrade north of Newcastle rather than a full-blown new build.

The straight bits of the current ECML aren't going to have trains running much faster unless they quad-track it. If they're going to do that they might as well do it by building another pair of tracks alongside the existing ones, designed for full HSR operation. It's cheaper and less disruptive than raw quad-tracking and it means that you can leave the existing tracks for classic services serving under-served stations. If passenger numbers do not yet need it then you don't have to rebuild the complex bits at York and around the Tyne/Wear area but you still get the journey time improvements. It's similar to what is planned for services to Liverpool as until there is a need for captive stock, you don't need to spend the billions on gauge-clearing the parts which are not yet at capacity.

Phase 3 going to Scotland is just because there isn't a vast amount of point stopping the construction at Carlisle. It's the trains to Glasgow and Edinburgh which will make building further financially worthwhile as these are the ones where rail will be able to supersede air completely. Network Rail believe that a 2:16 journey time is possible as that's what they put in their New Lines Program documents. At the same time I would imagine they would build the line north of York just because the costs and difficulty of the two lines together will be similar to either of the previous two phases.

 

[Chris125]

So let's be conservative. If an AGV coach is under 34 tonnes, then let's add 10 tonnes for tilt and 6 for a bogie and we are at 50 tonnes. Divided by 4 axles is 12.5 tonnes.

Are you really suggesting that increasing the weight of a high speed trainset by a third is fine, so long as the axle loading is kept down?

An equivalent non-tilt design without that extra weight would have far better acceleration and/or top speed on HS2.

However, the post HS2 Ph2 London - Edinburgh time of 3h38 is, frankly, embarrassing. They are going to need to do better than that to tackle the airlines' market share. There is a market of 700,000 pax a month to go for.

Lacking tilt will cost a classic-compatible service to Glasgow around 11 minutes once phase 2 is completed, HS2 Ltd and Network Rail have found - with limited adjustments to the existing infrastructure, that can be reduced down to just 4 minutes.

As a lighter non-tilt trainset can also achieve better journey times on HS2, do you really think shaving a couple of minutes from 218 is going to make a fundamental difference to the attractiveness of HS2, let alone justify all the extra costs involved?

We know that the northern end of the WCML and ECML are not capacity constrained

Capacity over the northern WCML is constrained, and it's only predicted to get worse - it's a steeply graded, double track line that caters for the bulk of anglo-scottish freight and passenger traffic. There's no doubt it will need upgrading, but those benefits will apply to freight and passenger services whether they tilt or not.

There is also the issue of CC trains serving destinations other than London at the southern end of the line - e.g. Manchester Southampton or Leeds Penzance over phase 2.

It's questionable whether such services will happen, and tilt is no longer used on Cross Country routes anyway - there's not much point when sharing busy double track lines with conventional freight and passenger services.

In which case we need to tell operators all over Europe that they've been getting it wrong.

They have been getting it right, that's why there are no 300km/h+ tilting designs and no plans to build any.

They only make sense for services that are predominantly, if not entirely, on the conventional network - typically over long distances and where tilt can produce meaningful time savings.

Chris

 

[adam9413]

According to a reliable source Liverpool Lime Street platform 6A (siding) will be brought back into full intercity service use from 2014/15 and will be renamed platform 7. Todays platforms 7,8,9 will be renamed 8,9,10.

This is in response to the upgrade and electrification of the Liverpool - Wigan/Manchester Line.

MerseyTravel have also held talks with TPE and Virgin on new services from Liverpool to Scotland from Jan 2015 once the electrification and new track and platforms at Roby & Huyton have been completed allowing high speed express trains to pass local commuter trains.

Hi, I realise nothing has been said in this topic for a few months but, given the timescales stated, has anything come from all this?

I have noticed that an upgrade of the platform 1-5 section (I don't remember seeing 6 mentioned on the signs) has been occuring at Lime Street, and seem to recall that PL5 has been refurbished and PL2 is currently been done, but I haven't been around much this year until the last few weeks.

There doesn't seem to be any Network Rail publications online regarding Lime Street, so I have been quite curious lately.

Of course, in May the station will get busier with the additional xx12 Newcastle service, though it is interlinked with the Scarborough and both will have short turnarounds.

Thanks.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have noticed that an upgrade of the platform 1-5 section (I don't remember seeing 6 mentioned on the signs) has been occuring at Lime Street, and seem to recall that PL5 has been refurbished and PL2 is currently been done, but I haven't been around much this year until the last few weeks.
There doesn't seem to be any Network Rail publications online regarding Lime Street, so I have been quite curious lately.

The P1-5 refurbs don't seem to have reached the far end of the platforms though.
Maybe something more drastic is to be done at the throat.
Lime St-Weaver Jn is due to be resignalled soon, as well as the Huyton area.
We need the confirmed NR detailed Route plans for CP5 really.
This document comes close but still lacks the local project detail: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ute plans/london north western route plan.pdf

 

[adam9413]

Thanks for your help. So it seems that nothing major will be happening for the time being.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Thanks for your help. So it seems that nothing major will be happening for the time being.

An earlier post on this thread (page 4) suggests this work will be completed in 2015 as part of the re-signalling scheme.

A separate source told me the work is definitely to go ahead but could not confirm a date.

 

[Tremzinho]

Network Rail have produced proposals for realigning platforms at Liverpool Lime Street and building two new ones.

• The existing carriage sidings between platforms 1-6 will be removed, to create wider platforms.
• Platforms 2 & 3 will be lengthened and able to take Pendolinos
• Two new platforms will be built in the cab road between platforms 8 & 9
• The throat will be realigned to increase capacity

It's not mentioned in the presentation, but the artists impressions indicate that platform 1 will be take out of use, and they will remove the 1st class lounge, cafe & Virgin office, which was only built in 2009.

http://www.slideshare.net/merseyrailways/merseytravel-committee-presentation-dec-2014

(Apologies if this is already covered elsewhere, but I couldn't find any mention of it in any recent threads.)

 

[stockport1]

Network Rail have produced proposals for realigning platforms at Liverpool Lime Street and building two new ones.

• The existing carriage sidings between platforms 1-6 will be removed, to create wider platforms.
• Platforms 2 & 3 will be lengthened and able to take Pendolinos
• Two new platforms will be built in the cab road between platforms 8 & 9
• The throat will be realigned to increase capacity

It's not mentioned in the presentation, but the artists impressions indicate that platform 1 will be take out of use, and they will remove the 1st class lounge, cafe & Virgin office, which was only built in 2009.

http://www.slideshare.net/merseyrailways/merseytravel-committee-presentation-dec-2014

(Apologies if this is already covered elsewhere, but I couldn't find any mention of it in any recent threads.)

looks like platform 1 has been removed on the new proposed layout!

overall looks good though. pendos to Scotland maybe??

 

[frodshamfella]

You often have to wait in tunnel on trains arriving Lime Street, which I imagine must mean short of platform space. Hopefully some new direct services too, as mentioned a Scottish service would be good.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think P1 stays, it is just accessed off the extended P2.
Nice to see they will get rid of the "black tower" at the end of P7 to make room for the new platforms.
The other black cubes seem to be staying (P6).
I assume they will be putting a new customer lounge somewhere.
I wonder if they will do anything to the gateline. Currently it's a pointless bottleneck.

I don't think any specific extra services can be presumed, just that an extra 3tph can be accommodated in a more flexible layout.
The extension of P2/3 is to house Pendolinos "during perturbation".
I'd like to see the track/signalling plan, as that is the main constraint at the moment.
Reversible tracks from Wavertree would be nice, with mid-way ladders.
I didn't notice a date on the slides, but presumably it's set for 2016/17?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Good to see they are thinking of the Halton Curve in this presentation.

 

[swt_passenger]

looks like platform 1 has been removed on the new proposed layout!

May well be. NR's PR department wouldn't consider that newsworthy.

They did exactly the same at Reading, only ever briefing about the 5 additional platforms without mentioning the two bays that were filled in and removed.

 

[thealexweb]

overall looks good though. pendos to Scotland maybe??

Pendos between Liverpool and Scotland are surely going to be difficult to justify when Manchester to Scotland are still frequently formed of single 185s?

 

[Statto]

You often have to wait in tunnel on trains arriving Lime Street, which I imagine must mean short of platform space. Hopefully some new direct services too, as mentioned a Scottish service would be good.

Lime Street is not that short of platform space, it's the track layout especially from 1-6 to the up slow line that's the bottleneck, trains from platforms 2 to 6 onto the up slow have to use part of the down slow, so down trains have wait until the lines have cleared from the up train, heres the track layout albeit from the SimSig simulation but the best i can find.
http://www.simsig.co.uk/dokuwiki/li...imestreet&media=usertrack:mans:limestview.png

 

[southern442]

It started with 9, it's ending with 9 from what I counted. All they've done is taken a few platforms out of use and added a few more, no platforms are gained. Have a look for yourself, the track has been lifted on 2 platforms.

 

[Tremzinho]

It started with 9, it's ending with 9 from what I counted. All they've done is taken a few platforms out of use and added a few more, no platforms are gained. Have a look for yourself, the track has been lifted on 2 platforms.

I think you are referring to the current track alongside platform 7. I don't believe this has ever served as an actual platform, as the roof pillars would be up against the platform edge, and the line would be blocked whenever platform 7 was occupied.

Only platform 1 and the carriage sidings are being lost.

 

[cirithungol]

It started with 9, it's ending with 9 from what I counted. All they've done is taken a few platforms out of use and added a few more, no platforms are gained. Have a look for yourself, the track has been lifted on 2 platforms.

Only one of the lifted tracks was in use, though (platform 1). On slide 9 of the presentation, the track in the middle of the picture (next to the red double pillars) has been an unused siding for as long as I can remember (was it ever in use?).

There was a thread last year detailing plans to convert the siding into a working platform, but it seems that that's now been abandoned in favour of this more ambitious plan.

 

[Bevan Price]

Not sure that reducing the length of platforms 4, 5 & 6 is a good idea - it rather reduces flexibility.

 

[southern442]

Only one of the lifted tracks was in use, though (platform 1). On slide 9 of the presentation, the track in the middle of the picture (next to the red double pillars) has been an unused siding for as long as I can remember (was it ever in use?).

There was a thread last year detailing plans to convert the siding into a working platform, but it seems that that's now been abandoned in favour of this more ambitious plan.

Why can't they do that as well? I can see that they have to remove P1 in order to lengthen the other platforms, but the siding is unchanged.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Only one of the lifted tracks was in use, though (platform 1). On slide 9 of the presentation, the track in the middle of the picture (next to the red double pillars) has been an unused siding for as long as I can remember (was it ever in use?).

There was a thread last year detailing plans to convert the siding into a working platform, but it seems that that's now been abandoned in favour of this more ambitious plan.

The original thread can be read here.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=90865&highlight=lime+street+station

Looking at the presentation it appears the basic plan is to remove the now surplus three carriage sidings between each platform which then allows the current platform one to be widened and straightened. Platforms 2, 3, are lengthened, whilst platforms 4 & 5 can be shifted slightly nearer together with platform 6. This then leaves a service gap for perhaps ticket inspection facilities etc, allowing the existing facilities to be moved to provide more space open space on the concourse.

In the south train shed, the track on platform 6A appears to have been lifted and two new platforms are added between the current platforms 7 & 8. The new platforms become 8 & 9 whilst the existing platforms 8 & 9 become 10 & 11 respectively.

The curious part is the extension of platforms 2 & 3 extended to allow 8 car presumably 2 x 319 units or Pendolino trains which are currently formed in 11 car sets, perhaps implying that there will be some platform swapping of local services.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

• Platforms 2 & 3 will be lengthened and able to take Pendolinos

I initially misread this thread as 'New Platforms for Liverpool Street' and spent several seconds when I got to this bullet point trying to figure out why Liverpool Street would want Pendolinos before I twigged!

 

[yorksrob]

Victorian cab roads have got the modern railway out of tight spots on a few occasions !