New rail lines in Scotland

[jeffinabox]

This will probably go down like a lead balloon, but I don’t think there is anywhere in Scotland where a completely new route (or reopening of a former route) would be in any way viable. And that’s not even expecting the railway itself to break even, but through overall contribution to the local economy.

I'm wondering about the cost of reopening Dunfermline to Alloa line. The line is still used by freight operators and even chartered passenger trains. And other than Kincardine, would there be any other village along the route that could justify a station? That could keep costs down, if it was just Kincardine opened.

A direct route from Dunfermline to Stirling/Glasgow might be quite popular, and could even start at Leven (maybe a North Fife route from Leven could terminate at Stirling or Glasgow).
Dunfermline's population is growing, so it could be quite well used.

 

[D6130]

I'm wondering about the cost of reopening Dunfermline to Alloa line. The line is still used by freight operators and even chartered passenger trains. And other than Kincardine, would there be any other village along the route that could justify a station? That could keep costs down, if it was just Kincardine opened.

A direct route from Dunfermline to Stirling/Glasgow might be quite popular, and could even start at Leven (maybe a North Fife route from Leven could terminate at Stirling or Glasgow).
Dunfermline's population is growing, so it could be quite well used.

Clackmannan and Culross perhaps - the latter a conservation village and growing tourist destination - but reopening has been proposed many times over the past forty years or so and nothing has ever come of it.

 

[Devon Sunset]

I’m surprised there’s been no mention of Haddington. New housing has exploded in the area and the only option is to drive to an ECML station or use the express bus to Edinburgh. Yes I know there’s capacity constraints on the ECML but it could be made to work.

 

[Kingston Dan]

I’m surprised there’s been no mention of Haddington. New housing has exploded in the area and the only option is to drive to an ECML station or use the express bus to Edinburgh. Yes I know there’s capacity constraints on the ECML but it could be made to work.

Penicuik too.

 

[waverley47]

I’m surprised there’s been no mention of Haddington. New housing has exploded in the area and the only option is to drive to an ECML station or use the express bus to Edinburgh. Yes I know there’s capacity constraints on the ECML but it could be made to work.

The problem with Haddington is that firstly you've got to build it, and secondly that every hypothetical train you send to Haddington is one that doesn't go to North Berwick.

The North Berwick branch is already there, and really needs 2tph, and any possible increase in paths east from Waverley will be going to there first. The fact that it doesn't get 2tph when demand is already there is proof that there really isnt capacity for any more services.

Only when NB gets 2tph all day will there be extra paths to go to Haddington, or indeed Penicuik I'm afriad.

 

[snookertam]

I'm wondering about the cost of reopening Dunfermline to Alloa line. The line is still used by freight operators and even chartered passenger trains. And other than Kincardine, would there be any other village along the route that could justify a station? That could keep costs down, if it was just Kincardine opened.

A direct route from Dunfermline to Stirling/Glasgow might be quite popular, and could even start at Leven (maybe a North Fife route from Leven could terminate at Stirling or Glasgow).
Dunfermline's population is growing, so it could be quite well used.

Again very unlikely. Unsure of how large a commuter flow Dunfermline and West Fife to Glasgow would be, nor the size of leisure traffic the other way, but it is unlikely to make any reopening anything close to viable. There’s already a good bus service between Dunfermline and Glasgow.

And operationally, a half hourly electric service runs to and from Alloa, so where do these extra trains fit in?

Again, sorry to rain on people’s parades here, but there are unlikely to be any viable reopening schemes in Scotland any time soon. We have maxed out our reopening potential.

There are potential benefits to certain station reopenings on existing routes, and that is probably where any expansion focus should be.

 

[Killingworth]

The problem with Haddington is that firstly you've got to build it, and secondly that every hypothetical train you send to Haddington is one that doesn't go to North Berwick.

The North Berwick branch is already there, and really needs 2tph, and any possible increase in paths east from Waverley will be going to there first. The fact that it doesn't get 2tph when demand is already there is proof that there really isnt capacity for any more services.

Only when NB gets 2tph all day will there be extra paths to go to Haddington, or indeed Penicuik I'm afriad.

Best options are to concentrate scarce funding on services stopping at North Berwick and Longniddry, with appropriate consideration of interchange, parking and drop off facilities for infernal road vehicles be they buses, cars or taxis!

 

[The exile]

And operationally, a half hourly electric service runs to and from Alloa, so where do these extra trains fit in?

If you were reopening the rest of the line, it would surely be served by an extension of one (or both) of those Alloa trains using bi-modes. Big “if”!

 

[SC318250]

If you were reopening the rest of the line, it would surely be served by an extension of one (or both) of those Alloa trains using bi-modes. Big “if”!

Was this not the plan to extend the Alloa services to Leven, and electrifying Alloa to Leven

 

[waverley47]

If you were reopening the rest of the line, it would surely be served by an extension of one (or both) of those Alloa trains using bi-modes. Big “if”!

If you were reopening, you'd wire it the whole way through and serve it with extensions to the Alloa trains.

The problem is, theres already a line between Fife and Glasgow, it's the Winchburgh Chord. For many years there was 1tpd in each direction from Kirkcaldy to Queen Street, and the fact that it was only ever 1tpd in each direction, and that it has now stopped (it was a pre-Covid cut) means that there's insufficient demand, or capacity, or both.

There isn't really any demand beyond 1 bus per hour between Stirling and Dunfermline, and that would be able to serve the small towns a lot easier than a train would.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Clackmannan and Culross perhaps - the latter a conservation village and growing tourist destination - but reopening has been proposed many times over the past forty years or so and nothing has ever come of it.

The trouble is the coastal route is indirect and slow. The line speed is just 35mph on most of the route, dropping to 30mph in places. And none of the settlements served has a population above 3,000 except Clackmannan (at the dizzying heights of 3,276).

The line via Oakley was more direct, and potentially faster, but it misses all the intermediate traffic (such as it is) and was lifted decades ago.

The problem is, theres already a line between Fife and Glasgow, it's the Winchburgh Chord. For many years there was 1tpd in each direction from Kirkcaldy to Queen Street, and the fact that it was only ever 1tpd in each direction, and that it has now stopped (it was a pre-Covid cut) means that there's insufficient demand, or capacity, or both.

I'm not at all convinced that 1tpd each way is anywhere near enough to encourage anyone to use the train, when the alternative of changing at Haymarket takes so much longer - I know, I've done it. If you can't plan your life around that one specific train, commuting from Kirkcaldy to Glasgow looks really unappealing. But equally, finding a way to fit a better level of service in for a market that's at best uncertain is probably not good value for money.

If you want to do East Fife-Glasgow, then Winchburgh and the E&G is the way to do it, though. The Stirling-Dunfermline line only makes any sense at all as a way of connecting the bits in the middle to the rail network.

 

[waverley47]

The trouble is the coastal route is indirect and slow. The line speed is just 35mph on most of the route, dropping to 30mph in places. And none of the settlements served has a population above 3,000 except Clackmannan (at the dizzying heights of 3,276).

The line via Oakley was more direct, and potentially faster, but it misses all the intermediate traffic (such as it is) and was lifted decades ago.

I'm not at all convinced that 1tpd each way is anywhere near enough to encourage anyone to use the train, when the alternative of changing at Haymarket takes so much longer - I know, I've done it. If you can't plan your life around that one specific train, commuting from Kirkcaldy to Glasgow looks really unappealing. But equally, finding a way to fit a better level of service in for a market that's at best uncertain is probably not good value for money.

If you want to do East Fife-Glasgow, then Winchburgh and the E&G is the way to do it, though. The Stirling-Dunfermline line only makes any sense at all as a way of connecting the bits in the middle to the rail network.

Back in the mists of time, when I wrote the BCR for the Alloa line, we did investigate a link through to Fife.

We totalled up every train ticket, how full the buses were, how many cars crossed the bridges at Clackmannan, and came to the conclusion that it wasn't really worth investigating further. That's not to say people don't make the journey, the statistics prove that they do, it's just that for most of Fife, it's quicker and easier to direct them to change at Haymarket.

Bear in mind that a full journey from Dunfermline to Queen Street via Alloa would be approaching 100 minutes, maybe longer. At that point, unless you're actually living in walking distance of Dunfermline City station, it's probably always going to be faster for you to change.

 

[Indigo Soup]

That's not to say people don't make the journey, the statistics prove that they do, it's just that for most of Fife, it's quicker and easier to direct them to change at Haymarket.

It's easy to forget that West Fife is actually very rural nowadays - there just isn't much there.

If you were going to throw money at the wall on a new railway in that part of the world, I suspect that Tillicoultry and Dollar would bring in more traffic. But the BCR would still be down in the weeds somewhere.

 

[lachlan]

Not a new railway line but restoring the connection from the Fife Circle line to Kirkcaldy would be a big improvement for Fife connectivity

 

[Devon Sunset]

The problem with Haddington is that firstly you've got to build it, and secondly that every hypothetical train you send to Haddington is one that doesn't go to North Berwick.

The North Berwick branch is already there, and really needs 2tph, and any possible increase in paths east from Waverley will be going to there first. The fact that it doesn't get 2tph when demand is already there is proof that there really isnt capacity for any more services.

Only when NB gets 2tph all day will there be extra paths to go to Haddington, or indeed Penicuik I'm afriad.

Fair enough but this is speculative so maybe one for the future. As you say the North Berwick line is rammed.

 

[styles]

Back in the mists of time, when I wrote the BCR for the Alloa line, we did investigate a link through to Fife.

We totalled up every train ticket, how full the buses were, how many cars crossed the bridges at Clackmannan, and came to the conclusion that it wasn't really worth investigating further. That's not to say people don't make the journey, the statistics prove that they do, it's just that for most of Fife, it's quicker and easier to direct them to change at Haymarket.

Bear in mind that a full journey from Dunfermline to Queen Street via Alloa would be approaching 100 minutes, maybe longer. At that point, unless you're actually living in walking distance of Dunfermline City station, it's probably always going to be faster for you to change.

Given how shocking the buses from Blairhall/Oakley/Carnock to Dunfermline are these days, a track running parallel to the cycle track where the old Stirling to Dunfermline Railway line may be useful.

It's one of those routes where probably few people are wanting to do the full length of the route city-to-city, but people living in settlements along the way could find it quite useful.

On the coastal Dunfermline to Alloa route perhaps some similar modal shift for those heading into Dunfermline. Culross would likely be a popular stop due to tourism; if the station could be located near the west car park, it could be just 5 minutes walk to The Red Lion as well - cracking food there.

 

[waverley47]

Not a new railway line but restoring the connection from the Fife Circle line to Kirkcaldy would be a big improvement for Fife connectivity

I'm very confused as to what you mean here. The Fife Circle goes through Kirkcaldy, unless something has changed in the thirty minutes it's taken me to get home from Waverley.

 

[JamesT]

I'm very confused as to what you mean here. The Fife Circle goes through Kirkcaldy, unless something has changed in the thirty minutes it's taken me to get home from Waverley.

Some people only consider the inland side to be the Fife Circle, as the coastal side is the Edinburgh-Dundee line. But I suspect @lachlan is talking more about the services. Previously most of the local trains did the whole circle in one direction or the other, whereas now the inland side is served by Edinburgh-Leven shuttles. Try looking for a train that goes directly between Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes, I think there might be one a day now.

 

[najaB]

The problem is, theres already a line between Fife and Glasgow, it's the Winchburgh Chord. For many years there was 1tpd in each direction from Kirkcaldy to Queen Street, and the fact that it was only ever 1tpd in each direction, and that it has now stopped (it was a pre-Covid cut) means that there's insufficient demand, or capacity, or both.

Thing is, 1tpd isn't enough to realistically evaluate demand.

 

[BlueLeanie]

The problem with Haddington is that firstly you've got to build it, and secondly that every hypothetical train you send to Haddington is one that doesn't go to North Berwick.

The North Berwick branch is already there, and really needs 2tph, and any possible increase in paths east from Waverley will be going to there first. The fact that it doesn't get 2tph when demand is already there is proof that there really isnt capacity for any more services.

Only when NB gets 2tph all day will there be extra paths to go to Haddington, or indeed Penicuik I'm afriad.

This simply highlights the lack of capacity to the East of Waverley.

Time to get those tunnels re-bored and get relief lines.

Back in the mists of time, when I wrote the BCR for the Alloa line, we did investigate a link through to Fife.

We totalled up every train ticket, how full the buses were, how many cars crossed the bridges at Clackmannan, and came to the conclusion that it wasn't really worth investigating further. That's not to say people don't make the journey, the statistics prove that they do, it's just that for most of Fife, it's quicker and easier to direct them to change at Haymarket.

Bear in mind that a full journey from Dunfermline to Queen Street via Alloa would be approaching 100 minutes, maybe longer. At that point, unless you're actually living in walking distance of Dunfermline City station, it's probably always going to be faster for you to change.

With Glasgow-Alloa journeys timetabled in just 44 minutes, 55 minutes does seem a remarkably long time to travel the 18 miles from Alloa to Dunfermline. When steam specials operated on the line, how long did they take?

 

[waverley47]

Some people only consider the inland side to be the Fife Circle, as the coastal side is the Edinburgh-Dundee line. But I suspect @lachlan is talking more about the services. Previously most of the local trains did the whole circle in one direction or the other, whereas now the inland side is served by Edinburgh-Leven shuttles. Try looking for a train that goes directly between Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes, I think there might be one a day now.

The reason for that split was precisely because demand for one side to the other was found to be minimal, bordering on non-existent. It was useful for diagramming when there wasn't anywhere to send them at the other end, as it meant you could run right round without changing ends. Now, with 2tph to Leven, one each way, there is unfortunately little demand for a full circle service, as it's a better use of capacity to just send them to Leven and back.

This simply highlights the lack of capacity to the East of Waverley.

Time to get those tunnels re-bored and get relief lines.

Indeed

With Glasgow-Alloa journeys timetabled in just 44 minutes, 55 minutes does seem a remarkably long time to travel the 18 miles from Alloa to Dunfermline. When steam specials operated on the line, how long did they take?

55 minutes along a 30-35mph max line, with three stops (Kincardine, Clackmannan and Valleyfield for Culross) seems about right. With substantial line speed increases you could get it down to about 35 or so minutes, but that's not fast enough to run an hourly service on one unit in steam rules, so you'd need proper signalling and a passing loop, and if you're building a passing loop then you need a couple extra minutes pathing time to make sure they meet in the middle, so let's call it forty at a push.

That's an hour and a half, give or take, from Dunfermline to Glasgow. Currently, you can do it via Haymarket in an hour and fifteen, depending on how good the connection is. And that's only for Dunfermline, for most of the rest of Fife, Haymarket will always be quicker.

Thing is, 1tpd isn't enough to realistically evaluate demand.

No it's not, but we also have excellent data for the number of people changing at Haymarket and number of tickets bought, good data for buses and reasonable data by counting the number of people going from Fife down the motorway to Glasgow using ANPR.

 

[jeffinabox]

The trouble is the coastal route is indirect and slow. The line speed is just 35mph on most of the route, dropping to 30mph in places.

55 minutes along a 30-35mph max line, with three stops (Kincardine, Clackmannan and Valleyfield for Culross) seems about right. With substantial line speed increases you could get it down to about 35 or so minutes

Doing a bit of digging, I see it's between Longannet and Charlestown Junction that the line is 35mph max. Longannet to Alloa between 40-75mph.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Route-Specification-Scotland-2021.pdf

Signals Alloa – Kincardine section controlled from Stirling Middle signal box
Kincardine – Charlestown Junction controlled from Longannet signal box

Charlestown Junction – Longannet = 35 mph max
Longannet – Alloa = 40 – 75 mph

Theoretically, is the only way to up the 35mph section substantial realignment or are there other ways and means of achieving this?

 

[waverley47]

Doing a bit of digging, I see it's between Longannet and Charlestown Junction that the line is 35mph max. Longannet to Alloa between 40-75mph.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Route-Specification-Scotland-2021.pdf

Signals Alloa – Kincardine section controlled from Stirling Middle signal box
Kincardine – Charlestown Junction controlled from Longannet signal box

Charlestown Junction – Longannet = 35 mph max
Longannet – Alloa = 40 – 75 mph

Theoretically, is the only way to up the 35mph section substantial realignment or are there other ways and means of achieving this?

The section to Longannett though, the speed isn't necessarily the biggest concern, because it's the section where all the stations will be, therefore max speed doesn't matter as much as minimum speed.

The section from Longannett to Dunfermline, sure, you could probably increase the speeds a bit, but the main problem is not the horizontal alignment, but what's underneath the rails. Nothing other than the odd test train and the odd charter has run that way in decades, and you're going to have to fundamentally rebuild from the foundation up, mucking around with the embankments and underbridges, before you could increase speeds substantially. That's where the cost is.

 

[BlueLeanie]

The section to Longannett though, the speed isn't necessarily the biggest concern, because it's the section where all the stations will be, therefore max speed doesn't matter as much as minimum speed.

The section from Longannett to Dunfermline, sure, you could probably increase the speeds a bit, but the main problem is not the horizontal alignment, but what's underneath the rails. Nothing other than the odd test train and the odd charter has run that way in decades, and you're going to have to fundamentally rebuild from the foundation up, mucking around with the embankments and underbridges, before you could increase speeds substantially. That's where the cost is.

There's a couple of SRPS charters in August.

 

[jadmor]

There are 2 express bus services running west from Dunfermline which cover this route; X22 to Stirling, and X24 to Glasgow. Both run on a 1 hour frequency. At this level of usage, it is hard to see a good economic case being made for upgrading the Longannet line. I used the direct Glasgow to Kirkcaldy service a few times pre Covid, and while it was nice to,avoid the change at Haymarket, the service was no faster and was not at all well patronised.

 

[The exile]

Fair enough but this is speculative so maybe one for the future. As you say the North Berwick line is rammed.

Which is great to hear. I remember when a DMU used to slink apologetically out of the then platform 2 at Waverley about 4 times a day!

 

[snookertam]

Which is great to hear. I remember when a DMU used to slink apologetically out of the then platform 2 at Waverley about 4 times a day!

Hard to imagine there was ever such an infrequent service on that route.

If we are talking about rail projects, how about increasing east coast capacity to enable a proper full daytime 30 minute interval service between Edinburgh and North Berwick?

 

[najaB]

If we are talking about rail projects, how about increasing east coast capacity to enable a proper full daytime 30 minute interval service between Edinburgh and North Berwick?

What would that involve?

 

[mcmad]

What would that involve?

I'd imagine something at Portobello, reinstating at least 1 more line through Calton tunnel and the Abbeyhill loop and potentially moving Drem station onto the loops. Or remove the TPE's north of Newcastle and leave it to LNER to service Reston, Dunbar and East Linton.

 

[A S Leib]

Or remove the TPE's north of Newcastle and leave it to LNER to service Reston, Dunbar and East Linton.

That means you'd have a Morpeth to Edinburgh, Reston to Newcastle etc. service but you probably wouldn't have a reasonably spaced Morpeth or Alnmouth to Dunbar service (although I think how necessary that is is more suitable for the current / recent thread on local Peterborough to Doncaster services than this one).