New report on future of SNCF

[daikilo]

French media are reporting that the Prime Minister will receive today (15/2) a new report prepared by a team led by Jean-Cyril Spinetta, previous head of Air France.

Amongst others, it recommends that the legal structure of the two main SNCF branches (Modilités and Infrastructure) be modified to become compliant with European law and in preparation for the opening up of passenger operations to private operators on what appears to be a franchise basis starting in 2019. Questions are asked about subsidies being given to lightly used lines which could lead to closures, although I thought most are now funded by the regions. It also says something about the workforce, apparently abandoning the statute of "cheminots" for new recruits.

I can't post a link yet as I have only heard about it on French radio, but will do so if I see anything in writing. Edit: Article in Le Monde here (in French): http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/arti...on-dans-le-rapport-spinetta_5257410_3234.html

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From Le Figaro it looks like the recommendations include: http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/201...reforme-radicale-de-l-entreprise-publique.php

- SNCF needs to become an SA (PLC), to limit the ease with which debts are accumulated (currently debt can be "unlimited", and is now €45 billion)
- devolving TERs to the regions to be brought forward, and with tendering competition
- high speed lines to be fully competitive (multiple operators)
- building new lines beyond what exists is uneconomic
- I don't understand the employment side but Spinetta wants an end to the special terms (pension etc) for railway staff (for new employees)
- terms need to be developed for transfer of SNCF staff to new operators when they take over services

These are from Google translations, so might not be right.
Elsewhere in Le Figaro, there's a quote that SNCF TER drivers actually drive for 400 hours a year, while their German equivalents drive for 1000 hours.
This is after tendering the German services competitively (some of which are to other public bodies), where 30% reduction in costs is typical.
Britain is referenced up as having improved customer satisfaction and experience.

I'm sure I've missed a lot.
This is of course just a report, the Minister says he will begin a consultation next week.

 

[Adlington]

Story in English (Railway Gazette)
In particular:

Spinetta pulls no punches, arguing that France is ‘unique in Europe’ in allocating around 15% of its annual rail funding to routes that carry ‘just 2% of passengers’. He urges that ‘a new model for rural transport must be found’, and advocates a wholesale review of SNCF Réseau’s regional and secondary lines. This funding should immediately be reallocated to renewing infrastructure at key hubs and on high-volume conventional lines, and ‘this must be a priority for the next 20 years’, he says.

No less controversial is Spinetta’s call for the creation of a ‘new social contract’ with SNCF staff. The report recommends that newly recruited staff should no longer receive the special legal status of cheminot, and suggests that SNCF starts to prepare over the next two years a plan for large-scale voluntary redundancies.

Spinetta recognises that in recent decades, industrial relations across the SNCF group have been characterised ‘more by conflict than consensus’, and he is under no illusions ‘that change will come quickly’.

Nevertheless he is adamant that reform must happen, bringing railway staff onto broadly similar terms of employment to those in other utilities. Progress will only be made, he suggests, ‘if the staff themselves start to rethink their working practices in a way that puts their skills and knowledge that the heart of a competitive business’. He believes that railway staff ‘will be the principal actors’ in renewing the national railway, which will require ‘an effort of unprecedented co-operation’.

IMHO, the last paragraph is, to put it politely, grossly overoptimistic.

Edit: more details in the International Railway Journal

 

[dutchflyer]

Now start your bets as to how many strikes (in number and in days) this will cost before it (if at all) will/can be implemented.

 

[CC 72100]

For anyone who has travelled in France by rail, is this report a) not very surprising and quite predictable or b) not at all unsurprising and all very predictable?

But I'm sure UK media will continue to laud France's network on the basis of someone the journalist knows having travelled on a TGV once and been impressed by it.

Does sound like France's Dr Beeching could be waiting in the wings, although I'd argue that poor frequencies and speeds have already done a good job of killing off those lines in danger, just needs a report like this to put them out of their misery.

 

[BigCj34]

For anyone who has travelled in France by rail, is this report a) not very surprising and quite predictable or b) not at all unsurprising and all very predictable?

But I'm sure UK media will continue to laud France's network on the basis of someone the journalist knows having travelled on a TGV once and been impressed by it.

Does sound like France's Dr Beeching could be waiting in the wings, although I'd argue that poor frequencies and speeds have already done a good job of killing off those lines in danger, just needs a report like this to put them out of their misery.

For anyone who has travelled in France by rail, is this report a) not very surprising and quite predictable or b) not at all unsurprising and all very predictable?

But I'm sure UK media will continue to laud France's network on the basis of someone the journalist knows having travelled on a TGV once and been impressed by it.

Does sound like France's Dr Beeching could be waiting in the wings, although I'd argue that poor frequencies and speeds have already done a good job of killing off those lines in danger, just needs a report like this to put them out of their misery.

Having seen historic maps France has no doubt had its Beeching cut. The network is notably sparse compared to Britain and is ridiculously Paris centric, even going cross-country from Bordeaux to Lyon is quicker via Paris. It needs a lot of investment in the lines it has aside from LGVs.

 

[daikilo]

Editorial in Le Monde today suggesting that the government may have decided that 'do nothing' is not an option.
http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2018/02/17/sncf-le-pari-de-la-reforme_5258534_3232.html

One large union has already called for a national strike on 22/3. The date presumably means that either they don't see an urgency or they are not sure of support. Note that the majority of French rail workers are in one of a few large unions which are not rail-specific, unlike in the UK.

As I understand, France did not have 'a Beeching' as such but set about restructuring rail more progressively after WW2, this was no doubt in part due to the consequences of the war. More recently, the regions have taken responsibilty for many local and regional services which has often seen increased frequencies, new trains and more traffic.

 

[AlexNL]

Unfortunately for the French regions, these devolved powers have never included the possibility of shopping elsewhere. They weren't allowed to have anyone other than SNCF run their trains, many regions are of the opinion that SNCF do a shoddy job at premium prices.

Rolling stock procurement also goes through SNCF, with the regions funding the trains. As SNCF prefer to have large framework agreements with suppliers, this once again leads to less choice for the regions. Installing WiFi on brand new TER trains might not be an option due to it not being in the framework agreement.

 

[daikilo]

Unfortunately for the French regions, these devolved powers have never included the possibility of shopping elsewhere. They weren't allowed to have anyone other than SNCF run their trains, many regions are of the opinion that SNCF do a shoddy job at premium prices.

Rolling stock procurement also goes through SNCF, with the regions funding the trains. As SNCF prefer to have large framework agreements with suppliers, this once again leads to less choice for the regions. Installing WiFi on brand new TER trains might not be an option due to it not being in the framework agreement.

Not sure about the shoddy job bit, but I have seen reference to a concern over "premium prices" due to not being able to tender operating contracts. Likewise, it is true that regions can only select from the trainsets in the SNCF framework agreements which effectively means they have no choice. Not at all sure about the wi-fi example.

I look forward to seeing what will happen in the near future with regional operating contracts as 'no-change' may not an option under European law. I also expect that something will change with the TET operations as I suspect the current government wants better conditions/lower subsidies.

Some French media are claiming that manpower costs could be up to 30% higher than a private company could achieve. I have yet to see how this is calculated but apparently part is thanks to retirement dates which may be significantly below the national average.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Quite a bit now out there on this, including a good summary from La Vie de Rail: https://www.ville-rail-transports.com/lettre-confidentielle/rapport-brulot-spinetta/ Looks like the most significant bit really is accepting that SNCF must be opened to competition: open access on the main routes and a form of franchising on local and regional services. The report sets the goal of getting much of the way there by 2023, ie. ensuring that SNCF's current portfolio is progressively opened up and not closed by making lengthy 'direct awards' without competition -- which is at present possible under EU law. The current workforce will be expected to transfer to new operators, and would be considered to have made themselves redundant if they don't. But if they do transfer they will carry with them their 'statut cheminot', notably the right to advantageous retirement terms and travel benefits. All new employees would be on different terms. The report suggests that about 5,000 SNCF staff currently don't have real jobs to do and should be offered voluntary severance (but NB this is only about 3% of the current workforce).

However, LvdR notes that Spinetta is not the first to make recommendations of this kind for France....

 

[CC 72100]

This report presents a big test for Macron - if he really is the man for change then he'll be wading through treacle right from the off with the power and status of the French unions, if it's put into the 'too difficult' pile because of the former, he'll be deemed as just like his predecessors and totally against his mandate as the 'president for change'. It's almost a no-win situation.

 

[CC 72100]

Unfortunately for the French regions, these devolved powers have never included the possibility of shopping elsewhere. They weren't allowed to have anyone other than SNCF run their trains, many regions are of the opinion that SNCF do a shoddy job at premium prices.

Rolling stock procurement also goes through SNCF, with the regions funding the trains. As SNCF prefer to have large framework agreements with suppliers, this once again leads to less choice for the regions. Installing WiFi on brand new TER trains might not be an option due to it not being in the framework agreement.

If I remember correctly, one (old) region, (PACA ?) did at one point threaten to stop paying the SNCF due to the service they were receiving.

 

[daikilo]

This report presents a big test for Macron - if he really is the man for change then he'll be wading through treacle right from the off with the power and status of the French unions, if it's put into the 'too difficult' pile because of the former, he'll be deemed as just like his predecessors and totally against his mandate as the 'president for change'. It's almost a no-win situation.

From what I hear and read, it is already in the hands of the transport secretary and the Prime Minister. I think the President will stay away from it until positive outcomes have been negotiated. I haven't worked out how to make it a win-win yet but I suspect that much of the report is actually based on previous realistic work hence some of the wording on e.g. regions and TGVs. I also guess that Germany and the UK will receive citations for 'their success in rationalising the network and operations'.

 

[duesselmartin]

CHAT Union announcing strikes in France 24 TV If reforms go ahead. Rail Sud also considering action.
France 24 also suggests that "many" lines would close. Considering that so few branches are left with poor TER services, that would be very bad news.

 

[BigCj34]

Would having more services help make the train an attractive option, or do a lot of regional lines need upgrading to be competitive with road transport? It would be a serious retrograde step for green transport if this was to happen.

 

[AlexNL]

"Supply creates demand" is something which is often said, and it has been proven often enough that it is definitely the case. After the former Hofpleinlijn (The Hague - Rotterdam via Pijnacker) was converted to the Randstadrail light rail system, the communities along that route experienced huge growth and the RandstadRail is about to go under. Similar growth can be seen on routes that were taken over by London Overground.

However, I wonder if this is also the case for France. We're talking about very rural stations, which only see a couple of trains (or buses!) a day to bring people to/from work or school. Some of those stations might not even have a weekend service as there's absolutely no demand for it.

Of course you can try to increase ridership by investing a lot of money into a line, a town or a station, but is doing so worthwhile? Who's going to pay for it? And how will the society benefit from it? Sometimes it's better to face the facts... public transport only works well if the means are spent effectively. There is no point in running trains and maintaining tracks if absolutely nobody wants to use it, in such cases it's better to focus on improving the local bus network instead.

(Yes, I know that I'm on a rail forum )

 

[MarcVD]

Lines targetted by this plan go through parts of France that have a very low population density (it was not the case when the lines were built). Think like Northern Scandinavia or Iceland. The potential ridership is just not there. Some lines might be worth saving for their touristic or historical aspect, but you can't do that for thousands of km. It doesn't make sense to maintain a rail line if the traffic will never exceed one or two trains a day. Pays them the taxi would be cheaper !

 

[MikeR]

Having seen historic maps France has no doubt had its Beeching cut. The network is notably sparse compared to Britain and is ridiculously Paris centric, even going cross-country from Bordeaux to Lyon is quicker via Paris. It needs a lot of investment in the lines it has aside from LGVs.

I live in SW France (near Marmande) and the point about Bordeaux to Lyon is well made. I have travelled to Lyon twice for the big Motorcycle Show there. On each occasion, it was easier for me to drive to Bordeaux Airport and fly to Lyon. The return flight, travel to the airport and airport parking costs were considerably less than the return rail fare from Marmande (which required changes at Bordeaux and Paris). In addition, the flights meant I only needed one night in a Hotel as opposed to two if going by rail as it is virtually a full day of travelling each way.

On the other hand, I went to Barcelona earlier this month. Flying from Bordeaux was marginally cheaper but it meant using Vueling Air so I opted to buy a SNCF Senior+ Card and travel by train. Marmande to Narbonne then change onto the Lyon - Barcelona TGV and arrived in Barcelona 2 minutes late! The return was also virtually to the minute with two connections to make. The Senior+ Card actually does offer some genuinely big savings and is already half paid for with 11 months validity left.

 

[daikilo]

I live in SW France (near Marmande) and the point about Bordeaux to Lyon is well made. I have travelled to Lyon twice for the big Motorcycle Show there. On each occasion, it was easier for me to drive to Bordeaux Airport and fly to Lyon. The return flight, travel to the airport and airport parking costs were considerably less than the return rail fare from Marmande (which required changes at Bordeaux and Paris). In addition, the flights meant I only needed one night in a Hotel as opposed to two if going by rail as it is virtually a full day of travelling each way.

On the other hand, I went to Barcelona earlier this month. Flying from Bordeaux was marginally cheaper but it meant using Vueling Air so I opted to buy a SNCF Senior+ Card and travel by train. Marmande to Narbonne then change onto the Lyon - Barcelona TGV and arrived in Barcelona 2 minutes late! The return was also virtually to the minute with two connections to make. The Senior+ Card actually does offer some genuinely big savings and is already half paid for with 11 months validity left.

That is one of the many problems with SNCF, you have to be dedicated and privileged to identify how to make them cheaper than alternatives. I have made several journeys Bayonne to Toulouse and the only value was that I was not driving.

 

[BigCj34]

That is one of the many problems with SNCF, you have to be dedicated and privileged to identify how to make them cheaper than alternatives. I have made several journeys Bayonne to Toulouse and the only value was that I was not driving.

Certainly no different in Britain with split ticketing, as at first glance flying is often cheaper than the train.

 

[daikilo]

French PM made speech this a.m. on his intentions and timescale (fast). He confirmed the opening to competition and the intent to recruit outside the current 'statut'.

Video in Le Monde on line http://www.lemonde.fr/entreprises/v...de-la-reforme-de-la-sncf_5262738_1656994.html

France Inter radio claims there is no intent to close lines as they are needed to provide mobility around France. He did not say that during the video which is apparently thus incomplete. He did say that opening to competition should lead to more travelers "as has happened in other countries".

 

[duncanp]

I don't think many people in the UK realise how bad some local TER services in France are

https://cdn.ter.sncf.com/medias/PDF...n_du_19_fevrier_tcm77-174206_tcm77-178631.pdf

is the timetable for the line between Dunkerque and Lille.

If you look at Hazebrouck, a reasonably large town just over 30 minutes from Lille, with plenty of commuter and college traffic there are, on a weekday:-

No trains from Lille between 10:15 and 12:00 and no trains to Lille between 13:43 and 15:26. At other times the service is not so bad, but there is no attempt at providing an even interval service. At some of the smaller intermediate stations on the line the situation is even worse.

A similar situation exists at Valenciennes, another large town about 40 minutes from Lille, where there is a two hour gap in the train service to Lille in the afternoon.

I can't imagine commuter towns such as Stevenage, Watford, Stockport, Bolton, Paisley or Motherwell having such a poor service.

The same issues with overcrowding and delays occur just as much in France as is the UK.

Compare that with the situation in Belgium where most lines run to an even interval clock face timetable, and at many junctions services are timetabled to connect easily.

 

[daikilo]

And its

I don't think many people in the UK realise how bad some local TER services in France are

https://cdn.ter.sncf.com/medias/PDF...n_du_19_fevrier_tcm77-174206_tcm77-178631.pdf

is the timetable for the line between Dunkerque and Lille.

If you look at Hazebrouck, a reasonably large town just over 30 minutes from Lille, with plenty of commuter and college traffic there are, on a weekday:-

No trains from Lille between 10:15 and 12:00 and no trains to Lille between 13:43 and 15:26. At other times the service is not so bad, but there is no attempt at providing an even interval service. At some of the smaller intermediate stations on the line the situation is even worse.

A similar situation exists at Valenciennes, another large town about 40 minutes from Lille, where there is a two hour gap in the train service to Lille in the afternoon.

I can't imagine commuter towns such as Stevenage, Watford, Stockport, Bolton, Paisley or Motherwell having such a poor service.

The same issues with overcrowding and delays occur just as much in France as is the UK.

Compare that with the situation in Belgium where most lines run to an even interval clock face timetable, and at many junctions services are timetabled to connect easily.

And its not just the TER trains, the same applies to the remaining lines served by Corail stock now categorised as TET I think.

Anyway, some of the affected unions are now threatening to strike for up to a month from as early as next week, apparently against the loss of 'special status' (statut), only currently envisaged for new recruits. The P.M. apparently wants there to be 'consultation' but has suggested that if negotiation/agreement cannot be achieved he'll rewrite the law anyway. Could become a showdown where the first losers will be the passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And its not just the TER trains, the same applies to the remaining lines served by Corail stock now categorised as TET I think.

Anyway, some of the affected unions are now threatening to strike for up to a month from as early as next week, apparently against the loss of 'special status' (statut), only currently envisaged for new recruits. The P.M. apparently wants there to be 'consultation' but has suggested that if negotiation/agreement cannot be achieved he'll rewrite the law anyway. Could become a showdown where the first losers will be the passengers.

It's not dissimilar to the UK DOO debate where the Unions are aiming to preserve the Guard grade for good rather than just for those presently holding it.

 

[43096]

Anyway, some of the affected unions are now threatening to strike for up to a month from as early as next week, apparently against the loss of 'special status' (statut), only currently envisaged for new recruits. The P.M. apparently wants there to be 'consultation' but has suggested that if negotiation/agreement cannot be achieved he'll rewrite the law anyway. Could become a showdown where the first losers will be the passengers.

Turkeys voting for Christmas. Shutting the network down will just accelerate the process. It is to be hoped the Government sticks to its guns, as the unions over there need reigning in.

 

[daikilo]

Turkeys voting for Christmas. Shutting the network down will just accelerate the process. It is to be hoped the Government sticks to its guns, as the unions over there need reigning in.

It seems the unions have had second thoughts and will meet again on 15/3 to discuss what to do.

 

[Gordon]

As I understand, France did not have 'a Beeching' as such .

The French 'Beeching' was the 1930s 'Co-ordination'

Also there were several big waves of passenger closures in the 20th century, notably around 1969 and the late 1970s/early 80s

.

 

[Gordon]

Lines targetted by this plan go through parts of France that have a very low population density (it was not the case when the lines were built). Think like Northern Scandinavia or Iceland. The potential ridership is just not there. It doesn't make sense to maintain a rail line if the traffic will never exceed one or two trains a day.

Absolutely correct. I have made this point about France in many forums over the years, AFAIR including this forum some time back.

 

[daikilo]

Government has apparently decided that the decision regarding the local lines should not be taken centrally. I presume this means it is up to the regions to provide funding if they want to keep the lines open. In the past this has lead to a few non-SNCF companies being created to operate such services using aging stock. Anyone for a Pacer?

 

[squizzler]

A quick comparison between the UK privatisation of the 1994 and the current situation in France suggests the potential for the French rail business is huge. BR was a well run state owned operator with a relatively modern intercity fleet, modern sprinter and networker DMU's, still quite a few locomotive hauled secondary services, ancient freight fleet. We had yet to put in cross rail and high speed lines. The Community Rail Partnerships movement had yet to get going. Yet business really took off after privatisation.

SNCF has a modern high speed fleet, the rest of the passenger services fleet are a mixed bag. They already have their high speed rail and Crossrail systems. I think that their infrastructure is light years ahead of where BR was at privatisation, their train fleet maybe less so, but this is the right way round to benefit from any management flair that privatisation might bring. I reckon the business of rail in France is set to explode under liberalisation. The smaller rural railways are the real basket cases because their small prospects and difficulty in changing things make it easy for a large business like SNCF to ignore their inefficiencies. I hope regional railways would benefit like a lot of the minor lines in the UK from the troika of private operator, local government and local passenger association engagement. What's the french for "Community Rail Partnership"?