New routes for sleeper trains

[occone]

I was reflecting that a sleeper between London and Manchester would be absolutely ideal for being able to go to events that end in the evening, without having to book a hotel.

A sleeper leaving at around midnight, going via Coventry, Birmingham, up to Manchester, then maybe Liverpool would be absolutely ideal.

I find the Night Riviera extremely useful for when I need to be in the Deep South, who would want to run something up the West Coast?

 

[Iskra]

There used to be one, but it was killed off long before the Pendolino cut journey times to a point where a sleeper is not needed. HS2 would kill a sleeper even more.

I think a better option would be London-Leicester-Nottingham-Sheffield-Leeds-York-Darlington-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Aberdeen and maybe onto Inverness depending on timings.

 

[skyhigh]

This thread had lots of discussion on possible sleeper routes, including ones via Manchester.

Sleeper service for the ECML.

Just wanted to start this thread to discuss the possibility for a sleeper service on the ECML. I personally would love it, but I do see several issues, such as demand, as the Caledonian Sleeper already serves Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness and Aberdeen, that leaves very few destinations for an...

www.railforums.co.uk

Basically, the economics don't stack up. The current sleepers are highly subsidised and the UK isn't really big enough for overnight trains.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

It is unfortunate that the Irish railways use a different gauge.
A through sleeper train London-West Midlands-Holyhead-(Train Ferry)-Dublin (drop a portion)-Belfast could be a good option for those who don't want to fly. It's doable by day train but the changes make it a bit of a slog.

Obviously the political situation could cause additional complications there too.

 

[The Planner]

It is unfortunate that the Irish railways use a different gauge.
A through sleeper train London-West Midlands-Holyhead-(Train Ferry)-Dublin (drop a portion)-Belfast could be a good option for those who don't want to fly. It's doable by day train but the changes make it a bit of a slog.

Obviously the political situation could cause additional complications there too.

How many train ferries exist and why would Stena or Irish Ferries etc invest in one?

 

[172007]

Give Riviera new stock and run a Friday only Edinburgh - Leeds to B'ham New Street, combine with Liverpool - Manchester Picadilly then to Burmingham and combine then Bristol - Plymouth then Newquay. Return Sunday night with the Mk3's. Have a Vehicle for all the surfboards and there you go.

Anyone got any multi coloured crayons I can use please.

 

[Clansman]

There used to be one, but it was killed off long before the Pendolino cut journey times to a point where a sleeper is not needed. HS2 would kill a sleeper even more.

Basically, the economics don't stack up. The current sleepers are highly subsidised and the UK isn't really big enough for overnight trains.

Remember that the Caledonian Sleeper exists predominantly to spread wealth to remote areas where day services otherwise wouldn't, which indirectly pays off the subsidy of the initial service through regional economic growth. The economics of the service alone is brutal, but the wider economics outside the service itself can be justified.

So I wouldn't discount the subsidy value or the journey time arguments too quicky (especially if journey time improvements are only a matter of an hour) so long as the destination is right. Not that there are any more suitable ones, but certainly worth considering in any case.

Personally I would say just chuck on three or four berths onto a day train and punt them to any willing buyer. Youtubers and tourists queuing up for the novelty, and a somewhat imaginative way to upsell somebody on a quiet late evening/early morning service (especially if such a service ever ran from Heathrow to Scotland to compete with the domestic air travel market). That is as good as I reckon it is going to get.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was reflecting that a sleeper between London and Manchester would be absolutely ideal for being able to go to events that end in the evening, without having to book a hotel.

A sleeper leaving at around midnight, going via Coventry, Birmingham, up to Manchester, then maybe Liverpool would be absolutely ideal.

I find the Night Riviera extremely useful for when I need to be in the Deep South, who would want to run something up the West Coast?

Would you be prepared to pay the full cost of the service? It would be about £2-300 one way, assuming a full train (which, obviously, it wouldnt be).

 

[GardenRail]

I was reflecting that a sleeper between London and Manchester would be absolutely ideal for being able to go to events that end in the evening, without having to book a hotel.

A sleeper leaving at around midnight, going via Coventry, Birmingham, up to Manchester, then maybe Liverpool would be absolutely ideal.

I find the Night Riviera extremely useful for when I need to be in the Deep South, who would want to run something up the West Coast?

Whats the point, how long would it take..... 3 hours?

 

[IanXC]

I have thought for a while that if there were going to be any further sleeper services in GB the obvious thing for an OAO to do was make use of withdrawn Caledonian Sleeper Mark 3s, run something like Plymouth to Glasgow via Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds etc, with seated coaches to pick up the same kind of traffic overnight TPE services tap into. Without the stock now I don't see how there is any chance of such a venture progressing until the next sleeper withdrawals.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have thought for a while that if there were going to be any further sleeper services in GB the obvious thing for an OAO to do was make use of withdrawn Caledonian Sleeper Mark 3s, run something like Plymouth to Glasgow via Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds etc, with seated coaches to pick up the same kind of traffic overnight TPE services tap into. Without the stock now I don't see how there is any chance of such a venture progressing until the next sleeper withdrawals.

No chance of an open access sleeper. It would be easier just to shovel £20 notes in the fire every night, and cost less.

 

[IanXC]

No chance of an open access sleeper. It would be easier just to shovel £20 notes in the fire every night, and cost less.

I didn't say it was likely, just that the best chance was to tap into sleeper journeys and overnight airport journeys with the same trains.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I have thought for a while that if there were going to be any further sleeper services in GB the obvious thing for an OAO to ... run something like Plymouth to Glasgow via Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds etc.

I missed out on riding the sleeper service from Plymouth to the North East (I think it was Edinburgh or Newcastle). As that was culled under BR ownership, I presume there wasn't the demand.

 

[Class172]

I have thought for a while that if there were going to be any further sleeper services in GB the obvious thing for an OAO to do was make use of withdrawn Caledonian Sleeper Mark 3s, run something like Plymouth to Glasgow via Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds etc, with seated coaches to pick up the same kind of traffic overnight TPE services tap into. Without the stock now I don't see how there is any chance of such a venture progressing until the next sleeper withdrawals.

Certainly in terms of an environmental argument it would be great to see a Scotland-SW sleeper of some sort. Bristol-Scotland is a reasonably decent flow for airline traffic and there are also smaller flows from Exeter and Newquay, so removing some of the traffic from these would be a positive shift. I’m deliberately casting aside any economic judgements however.

In terms of what feels like it must be reasonable to suggest, I would have thought that one of the low-hanging fruits would be to get Birmingham included in the Caledonian Sleeper. Brum plus the wider West Mids must be a sizeable potential market and the Highlander at least would pass through during existing operating hours at New St.

 

[Bald Rick]

Certainly in terms of an environmental argument it would be great to see a Scotland-SW sleeper of some sort.

It‘s reasonable to assume that a SW to Scotland sleeper, if routed via Derby, would be less environmentally friendly per passenger than an easyjet A320neo.

It‘s a fairly close run thing for the Highlander now, and that has 400 miles on electric.

 

[HSTEd]

If you wanted sleeper like service, given the short journeys on most of the UK railway network, it would likely be better to simply have hotels at stations that allow check-in to occur at other stations.
Then position the hotel as close to the platform as possible so that people can proceed directly to their room on arrival.

 

[irish_rail]

It‘s reasonable to assume that a SW to Scotland sleeper, if routed via Derby, would be less environmentally friendly per passenger than an easyjet A320neo.

It‘s a fairly close run thing for the Highlander now, and that has 400 miles on electric.

Surely it would route via the WCML from Birmingham?. At present, those in the south west only really have a choice of flying if going to Scotland, and vice versa for Scotland to South west travellers. The XC journeys are so ridiculously long, overcrowded and overpriced. A more realistic alternative to a sleeper, would be some kind of daytime service from the south west to Scotland via the WCML calling only at principal places, say Plymouth , Bristol, Birmingham, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle , Edinburgh for example. (Other calling patterns are available). Again, I know this has been discussed before and won't happen, but then we do not live in a country serious about removing internal flights. Perhaps things will change in coming years, one can but hope.

 

[JonathanH]

If you wanted sleeper like service, given the short journeys on most of the UK railway network, it would likely be better to simply have hotels at stations that allow check-in to occur at other stations.
Then position the hotel as close to the platform as possible so that people can proceed directly to their room on arrival.

Yes, that would be the best option for the OP's needs. Somewhere cheap and safe to stay from midnight, to 5am, then a ticket thrown in for the first train to Manchester to arrive around 7am.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely it would route via the WCML from Birmingham?. At present, those in the south west only really have a choice of flying if going to Scotland, and vice versa for Scotland to South west travellers. The XC journeys are so ridiculously long, overcrowded and overpriced. A more realistic alternative to a sleeper, would be some kind of daytime service from the south west to Scotland via the WCML calling only at principal places, say Plymouth , Bristol, Birmingham, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle , Edinburgh for example. (Other calling patterns are available). Again, I know this has been discussed before and won't happen, but then we do not live in a country serious about removing internal flights. Perhaps things will change in coming years, one can but hope.

Well if the intention is to remove domestic flights, then it needs to go via the ECML, there being flights from Bristol to Newcastle as well as Edinburgh & Glasgow. and, as we know, it’s easier to serve Edinburgh and Glasgow by routing via Edinburgh.

Regardless, even were such a sleeper to exist, it would not reduce the number of flights on the routes concerned.

 

[Western Sunset]

I think the concept of sleeper services in Britain, bar a couple of examples, has probably come to the end of its natural life.

In the past, when long-distance trains were less frequent and slower, they served a real need. Often the first train of the day from the north or west didn't arrive in London until late morning/lunchtime. At larger intermediate cities, sleeping cars could be added to services, to enable folk to settle down for the night at a reasonable hour. Very few opportunities now exist to do such shunting en route.

National Express/Megabus have cornered the market for those who want cheap overnight travel.

 

[Helvellyn]

Cost of an AP ticket + Premier Inn room versus Sleeper berth with just a sink in the cabin or AP air fare?

It's unfortunately a niche market and It's why by the mid-1990s the Sleeper network was largely what it is now bar the Scotland - Plymouth service (in part killed off by Rosyth closing as a naval base). Even then the five separate London-Scotland services were combined as two to give us the current Highlander (previously Royal Highlander to Invermess, Night Aberdonian to Aberdeen and West Highlander to Fort William) and Lowlander (previously Night Scotsman to Edinburgh and Night Caledonian to Glasgow).

The Night Riveria probably survived privatisation in the 1990s because at the time it served marginal constituencies in Devon and Cornwall (like today the Tories didn't predict the wipeout they experienced in 1997) and it has only really been fairly secure since the mid-2000s. However, given it's using forty year old hauled stock (albeit refurbished) it's longer term future has to be questioned given replacement of the Mark 3s will be a lot more expensive for a niche micro-fleet versus if GWR had been permitted to do an add-on to the Caledonian Sleeper order.

 

[irish_rail]

Cost of an AP ticket + Premier Inn room versus Sleeper berth with just a sink in the cabin or AP air fare?

It's unfortunately a niche market and It's why by the mid-1990s the Sleeper network was largely what it is now bar the Scotland - Plymouth service (in part killed off by Rosyth closing as a naval base). Even then the five separate London-Scotland services were combined as two to give us the current Highlander (previously Royal Highlander to Invermess, Night Aberdonian to Aberdeen and West Highlander to Fort William) and Lowlander (previously Night Scotsman to Edinburgh and Night Caledonian to Glasgow).

The Night Riveria probably survived privatisation in the 1990s because at the time it served marginal constituencies in Devon and Cornwall (like today the Tories didn't predict the wipeout they experienced in 1997) and it has only really been fairly secure since the mid-2000s. However, given it's using forty year old hauled stock (albeit refurbished) it's longer term future has to be questioned given replacement of the Mark 3s will be a lot more expensive for a niche micro-fleet versus if GWR had been permitted to do an add-on to the Caledonian Sleeper order.

As long as journey times from Cornwall to London remain at 4 to 5 hours then the Riviera will be justified. To reiterate it takes longer to get from London to Truro than London to Glasgow or Edinburgh. A sleeper is very much justified to Cornwall at present. If anything, I'd axe the central belt sleepers and keep the Cornish and Highland ones.

 

[mike57]

To me the only additional internal sleeper service which might make sense would be SW England to the NE and Scotland and return. However the economics and availability of stock rule it out.

You then have potential international routes via the channel tunnel, and as well as rolling stock and economics there is the added issue of border controls, which is causing issues even with the current international services. So it just wont happen. If the service could be provided at a cost similar to room + flight then there would be a market, the issue is getting the costs down assuming that subsidies will not be forthcoming.

 

[HST43257]

To me the only additional internal sleeper service which might make sense would be SW England to the NE and Scotland and return. However the economics and availability of stock rule it out.

I think this is easy to rule out as you say, but out of interest what could be done with it? How about brief timings like:

Soithbound/Northbound

1800/1200 Glasgow
1850/1110 Edinburgh
2025/0935 Newcastle
2130/0830 York
2200/0800 Leeds
2300/0700 Manchester
0100-0500/0100-0500 Birmingham PORTION SPLIT
0700/2300 Cardiff (1)
0800/2200 Swansea (1)
0700/2300 Bristol (2)
0800/2200 Exeter (2)
0900/2100 Plymouth (2)
0950/2010 Par (2)
1015/1945 Truro (2)
1100/1900 Penzance (2)

Run it 3 times a week so 1 set required, with a maintenance day.

 

[mike57]

0100-0500 Birmingham PORTION SPLIT

I think you would need to reduce this time, maybe run in two portions at the SW end, Penzance and Swansea, Ideally both arriving by 09:00 ish.

If it was there and reasonably priced with decent rolling stock I think people would use it, but no way it will cover its costs. The other problem is with everything being MU you dont have the option to attach sleeping cars to other services at the extremities of their routes.

 

[The Planner]

I think this is easy to rule out as you say, but out of interest what could be done with it? How about brief timings like:

Soithbound/Northbound

1800/1200 Glasgow
1850/1110 Edinburgh
2025/0935 Newcastle
2130/0830 York
2200/0800 Leeds
2300/0700 Manchester
0100-0500/0100-0500 Birmingham PORTION SPLIT
0700/2300 Cardiff (1)
0800/2200 Swansea (1)
0700/2300 Bristol (2)
0800/2200 Exeter (2)
0900/2100 Plymouth (2)
0950/2010 Par (2)
1015/1945 Truro (2)
1100/1900 Penzance (2)

Run it 3 times a week so 1 set required, with a maintenance day.

Stopping at New St for 4 hours to make that work as a sleeper is telling.

 

[HST43257]

Stopping at New St for 4 hours to make that work as a sleeper is telling.

Indeed, but Manchester to Bristol are unfortunately worth serving so they should be served at reasonable times

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed, but Manchester to Bristol are unfortunately worth serving so they should be served at reasonable times

I suspect that should be Manchester and Bristol are worth serving rather than imagining there is a significant overnight market between the two.

 

[dk1]

The idea is ludicrous. Sleepers wonderful as they are are an accountants nightmare. If the DfT don’t like running a couple of Euston trains through to Shrewsbury each day I don’t think they’ll stomach more overnight beds

 

[NSE]

They’re lovely ideas the sleeper. But just so impossible to make viable. I thoroughly enjoyed my ride on the sleeper and will do so again, but only because I like trains. It was not the quickest or most convenient option. And it was only the cheapest because I don’t pay full price. Which again, highlights how they won’t be making money if they’re filling their beds with me and my discount prices.

As soon as you start looking at a sleeper that doesn’t involve London, you’re looking at a very limited market. The more stops you add, the more times you are constricting yourself by eliminating the chance for possible diversions. This means it’s more likely to be cancelled during engineering works and therefore perceived as unreliable. Equally, Birmingham to Scotland is a big market. That’s undeniable. It’s a fact. But if the sleeper stops at New Street at 0230, the market for that train is so small. It just becomes unviable. I’m still surprised the Cornish Sleeper runs (pleased tho, as I need to tick it off the list) but I’ll never be surprised to see it disappear and I agree, HS2 will likely kill of the Lowland Sleeper.

Personally, I’d just like to see some more night trains available. Not sleeper facilities. Just night trains. That’d be more help.