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New semaphore signals on the Dudding Hill Line

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HSTEd

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Also a semaphore stop signal couldn't simply be replaced by a two-aspect colour-light unless it was the section signal (the last one controlled by a particular box). A three-aspect would be required to act as a repeater for the next stop signal (controlled by the same box) which could still be at danger. This point is probably now historic, because as mentioned above semaphores are not nowadays replaced piecemeal by colour lights.

My understanding is that semaphores can only display two aspects, how did colour lights develop to require three aspects in that situation?
Why don't we have yellow-and-green distant colour light signals?
 
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edwin_m

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The access platform must have cost a bit. Couldn't the new signal post have been like some modern lamp standards and hinged so that the top bits could be simply wound down to ground level for maintenance?
This is common with new colour lights but the semaphore is probably heavier so it would have needed a new and stronger design of support, and the cost of getting that done and approved would far outweigh the saving when it would only ever be applied to a handful of signals. The operating wire and balance weight also complicate things.
 

edwin_m

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My understanding is that semaphores can only display two aspects, how did colour lights develop to require three aspects in that situation?
Why don't we have yellow-and-green distant colour light signals?
According to the Kitchenside and Williams book I used to have, it was because the driver might see a green colour light and assume it meant the same as a normal green colour light, that the train was safe to accelerate to line speed and if the next signal was red it would have a yellow (or a distant at caution) at braking distance before it.

An absolute block signal box can control several stop signals on the same track in the same direction separated by less than braking distance, all of which have to be clear for the distant to be cleared. If one of them (other than the last one) is only cleared as the train approaches then it only allows the train to proceed as far as the next one.

I suspect the book was a little confusing in this respect, because the usual reason to have a three-aspect in that sort of situation was where the next stop signal was in effect an intermediate block signal with braking distance between them, so the distant approaching the box could be cleared even if the three-aspect was only showing yellow.

Generally however a colour light distant for an absolute block signal box can display only yellow or green. It could be a three-aspect if it happened to coincide with the previous stop signal, and the LMS had a weird arrangement at one time where the distant would display double yellow for a diverging junction.
 

Islineclear3_1

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I was in Gladstone Park on Tuesday by chance (I'd never been there before but had to make a trip to very nearby from Surrey) and took a few shots, of which these are two, showing the new signal (not in use yet) with its modern maintenance access platform compared with the old simple ladder, and its juxtaposition with the colour light protecting Dudding Hill Junction, which is the one I assume you meant. Neasden Junction has had its lovely old MR junction gantry replaced by a new, utilitarian semaphore gantry. BTW, no trespassing, just long arms over the sharp-tipped fence!

View attachment 79946View attachment 79945

Nice pic. But in the first picture, how on earth did you manage to squeeze in the narrow gap with all the overgrown bracken etc... ??? Bet you come away with a few scratches...
 

Bald Rick

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My understanding is that semaphores can only display two aspects, how did colour lights develop to require three aspects in that situation?
Why don't we have yellow-and-green distant colour light signals?

Until relatively recently (as in, last century), some semaphores displayed three aspects. Horizontal - stop, diagonal - caution, vertical - clear. There was one like this on the down main at Paddington.

It is definitely worth reading the book that @edwin_m mentions by Alan Williams and Geoffrey Kichenside.
 
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edwin_m

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Until relatively recently (as in, last century), some semaphores displayed three aspects. Horizontal - stop, diagonal - caution, vertical - clear. There was one like this on the down main at Paddington.

It is definitely worth reading the book that @edwin_m mentions by Alan Williams and Geoffrey Kitchenside.
Were they really that recent? I understood that they died out in the first half of the century when colour light signals became the obvious choice for lines where traffic was too dense and signal spacing too short for each stop signal to have its own separate distant. The three-position ones were upper quadrant to distinguish the caution aspect from the proceed aspect of a normal stop signal, and getting rid of them allowed most companies to standardize on two-position upper quadrants.

But perhaps the fact the GWR didn't adopt upper quadrant allowed then to hang on to three-positions for longer? Ironic if so, as the GWR's attempts at colour light signaling had the lights emulating semaphores, so a three aspect had separate lenses showing red/green and yellow/green.
 

Bald Rick

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Well, according to Williams & Kichenside, they started to be introduced in 1914 with the aforementioned Paddington example. There were three other installations, before the IRSE standardised on signalling nationwide, from when the upper quadrant 2 position semaphores, with red recatnahular for stop signals and yellow with chevron for distant signals became standard for new installations, and the colour scheme we’d now know, ie red for danger, yellow for caution, green for clear. (Up to then there was quite a mix of semaphore arm styles and colour meanings).

Other three arm position semaphores we’re installed at Victoria (lasted until 1939), Ealing - Shepherds Bush (1948), and Keadby (1967). In the book (which I can’t reccomend highly enough), there is a picture of one from Keadby in 1967, and the signal has three spectacle lenses for the three positions.
 

John Webb

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The Institution of Railway Signal Engineers (ISRE) set up a committee in March 1922 to discuss 'Three Position Signalling'. This is reported on in some detail in O S Nock's "Fifty Years of Railway Signalling" (IRSE 1962). This Committee did not report back until December 1924, and lead not only to the use of 3-aspect colour light signals but also introduced the 'double yellow' aspect which was virtually impossible to obtain with semaphores.... One member of the Committee submitted a minority report saying that 3-aspect semaphore signals should not be left out of the reckoning.
 

edwin_m

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Well, according to Williams & Kichenside, they started to be introduced in 1914 with the aforementioned Paddington example. There were three other installations, before the IRSE standardised on signalling nationwide, from when the upper quadrant 2 position semaphores, with red recatnahular for stop signals and yellow with chevron for distant signals became standard for new installations, and the colour scheme we’d now know, ie red for danger, yellow for caution, green for clear. (Up to then there was quite a mix of semaphore arm styles and colour meanings).

Other three arm position semaphores we’re installed at Victoria (lasted until 1939), Ealing - Shepherds Bush (1948), and Keadby (1967). In the book (which I can’t reccomend highly enough), there is a picture of one from Keadby in 1967, and the signal has three spectacle lenses for the three positions.
Thanks for those dates. I was given that book at the age of about 12 but haven't seen it for several decades, so please forgive me for not remembering chapter and verse 40-odd years on! Railsigns mentions that three-positions were motor worked. I imagine a wire pull would have been a bit like a derailleur gear, difficult to adjust to get the middle position reliably, and with the risk of thermal effects etc causing caution to be displayed as clear. Which makes them all the more pointless in my view, eliminating one of the few advantages of the semaphore over a colour light, that it doesn't need an electric supply.
 

Bald Rick

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Thanks for those dates. I was given that book at the age of about 12 but haven't seen it for several decades, so please forgive me for not remembering chapter and verse 40-odd years on!

Sorry if my post seemed a bit superior. By complete chance, I retrieved the book off its shelf last night to loan to my Dad, so it was the work of a moment to find the right page!

We might, though , be talking about different books; mine is a second edition dated 2008, the first edition was 1997.
 

30907

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Sorry if my post seemed a bit superior. By complete chance, I retrieved the book off its shelf last night to loan to my Dad, so it was the work of a moment to find the right page!

We might, though , be talking about different books; mine is a second edition dated 2008, the first edition was 1997.
And there was a much smaller (A5-ish) volume back in the 60s with a red cover, which might be what edwin_m refers to (I lent mine to someone....).
 

Islineclear3_1

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And there was a much smaller (A5-ish) volume back in the 60s with a red cover, which might be what edwin_m refers to (I lent mine to someone....).

There was, indeed. The red one was the first edition (1963); yellow the 2nd edition, blue the 3rd edition (1975) and green the 4th edition (1978).

If anyone has, or knows of anyone who wishes to sell their yellow copy, please PM me as I have been searching for this edition for a long time...
 

edwin_m

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There was, indeed. The red one was the first edition (1963); yellow the 2nd edition, blue the 3rd edition (1975) and green the 4th edition (1978).

If anyone has, or knows of anyone who wishes to sell their yellow copy, please PM me as I have been searching for this edition for a long time...
I think I had two, the blue and the green. The dates looks about right.
 
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