New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[SpacePhoenix]

I am aware that it wouldn't benefit stations along the line through Guildford, hence my comment about it not having the same benefits as a more direct service.

Depending on loadings having it divide at Woking could mean having to run it as 12 coaches out of London, whilst splitting at Eastleigh could keep it as 8 coaches. Now obviously if there is enough demand either could be worth doing, however a trail splitting at Eastleigh is likely to be cheaper to do.

How much demand is there then for going towards Weymouth? If there's enough could it divide at either Woking or Eastleigh, the busier of the two routes has 8 cars, the other unit goes onto the other destination

 

[swt_passenger]

Which of the current Waterloo-Weymouth services would have been at one time the Brokenhurst-Wareham service?

Neither. The second Weymouth service is an extension of the previous Poole semi-fast service.

The current Poole service is a joining up of the previous Waterloo - Southampton service with the Brockenhurst to Poole part of the Wareham service. This is why it stands at Southampton Central (20 mins) and Brockenhurst (35 mins) for so long, because it runs in the same paths as before, with the Southampton - Brockenhurst part of the new through service taking the calls from the older Poole service.

This is exactly why, if standing at Waterloo and wanting to go to Poole, the Poole train is the last one you should think of boarding.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I am aware that it wouldn't benefit stations along the line through Guildford, hence my comment about it not having the same benefits as a more direct service.

Depending on loadings having it divide at Woking could mean having to run it as 12 coaches out of London, whilst splitting at Eastleigh could keep it as 8 coaches. Now obviously if there is enough demand either could be worth doing, however a trail splitting at Eastleigh is likely to be cheaper to do.

I work the 0030 Eastleigh-Portsmouth quite often and there simply isn't the demand for Hedge End/Botley, Fareham has minimal demand but passengers have the option of driving to Parkway for a better service, anyone for Portchester and particularly Cosham would be better served by a direct service to Portsmouth.

 

[infobleep]

Neither. The second Weymouth service is an extension of the previous Poole semi-fast service.

The current Poole service is a joining up of the previous Waterloo - Southampton service with the Brockenhurst to Poole part of the Wareham service. This is why it stands at Southampton Central (20 mins) and Brockenhurst (35 mins) for so long, because it runs in the same paths as before, with the Southampton - Brockenhurst part of the new through service taking the calls from the older Poole service.

This is exactly why, if standing at Waterloo and wanting to go to Poole, the Poole train is the last one you should think of boarding.

Of course if your standing at Clapham Junction at 17.10 with a ticket not valid via Waterloo....

I'm currently reading the Shake holders document. It's interesting. You can see that people want better interchange opportunities at Clapham Junction. So far as I've got reading, there hasn't been a response to that point

Once I've read it all I may find such a response.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[swt_passenger]

...You can see that people want better interchange opportunities at Clapham Junction. So far as I've got reading, there hasn't been a response to that point

Once I've read it all I may find such a response.

There isn't a solution in the stakeholder's brief, they just report it as a proposal made in responses to the consultation, and make no reply. The necessary infrastructure changes will be outside the timescales of the bid requirements which are about the situation by 2018.

In which case, will that mean we'll be able to have yet another discussion about how more SWML trains cannot call at Clapham Junction until either 5th tracking or Crossrail 2 happens?

That'll be fun, cos we haven't done it for a few months... :roll:

 

[infobleep]

There isn't a solution in the stakeholder's brief, they just report it as a proposal made in responses to the consultation, and make no reply. The necessary infrastructure changes will be outside the timescales of the bid requirements which are about the situation by 2018.

In which case, will that mean we'll be able to have yet another discussion about how more SWML trains cannot call at Clapham Junction until either 5th tracking or Crossrail 2 happens?

That'll be fun, cos we haven't done it for a few months... :roll:

You'd think they might have addressed it with a this can't be done yet and isn't being considered as the document is about the state in 2018. However it might be done one day. Then it might help stop the questions.

It really does need to be addressed at some point in the future my opinion. The question is, when can they afford to do it? It will be really really expensive I'm sure.

They may have amounted time periods. I just can't remember if anything was announced or whether it was just an idea that may or may not happen in the future.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Which of the current Waterloo-Weymouth services would have been at one time the Brokenhurst-Wareham service?

Nearest equivalent would the xx:05 ex Waterloo or xx:39 ex Waterloo.

@infobleep.

They can more or less do as they like it's their trainset, as long as there's no excessive wait at a changing point.

If for example Waterloo - Hampton Court/Kingston loop goes 4tph, there would be no real need for the Woking Bay/Guildford (C) service to call at anywhere after Wimbledon, as the frequency for stations after Wimbledon would be so good and the wait so small the journey time difference would be very minimal and it would most certainly ease the amount of congestion.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Neither. The second Weymouth service is an extension of the previous Poole semi-fast service.

The current Poole service is a joining up of the previous Waterloo - Southampton service with the Brockenhurst to Poole part of the Wareham service. This is why it stands at Southampton Central (20 mins) and Brockenhurst (35 mins) for so long, because it runs in the same paths as before, with the Southampton - Brockenhurst part of the new through service taking the calls from the older Poole service.

This is exactly why, if standing at Waterloo and wanting to go to Poole, the Poole train is the last one you should think of boarding.

Will the pathing ever get looked at and altered to eliminate the need for the long waits at Southampton and Brockenhurst?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Will the pathing ever get looked at and altered to eliminate the need for the long waits at Southampton and Brockenhurst?

That's probably in the tray marked "Too difficult".

 

[infobleep]

Nearest equivalent would the xx:05 ex Waterloo or xx:39 ex Waterloo.

@infobleep.

They can more or less do as they like it's their trainset, as long as there's no excessive wait at a changing point.

If for example Waterloo - Hampton Court/Kingston loop goes 4tph, there would be no real need for the Woking Bay/Guildford (C) service to call at anywhere after Wimbledon, as the frequency for stations after Wimbledon would be so good and the wait so small the journey time difference would be very minimal and it would most certainly ease the amount of congestion.

If they could stop more fast trains at Wimbledon but they could eliminate Clapham Junction with more frequent stopping services but they can't.

In fact if the Guildford stoppers didn't stop at stations beyond Wimbledon, which line would they use? Not the fast because their isn't any space capacity without missing other other stations I'd have thought. Of course they could miss out Clapham Junction on all services. That's how it use to be in the 50s.
Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[tbtc]

There isn't a solution in the stakeholder's brief, they just report it as a proposal made in responses to the consultation, and make no reply. The necessary infrastructure changes will be outside the timescales of the bid requirements which are about the situation by 2018.

In which case, will that mean we'll be able to have yet another discussion about how more SWML trains cannot call at Clapham Junction until either 5th tracking or Crossrail 2 happens?

That'll be fun, cos we haven't done it for a few months... :roll:

I thought it was the turn of My Idea For Putting 508s On The Lymington Branch next (as we continue to play SWT Bingo)?

I'm not convinced that additional Clapham Junction stops would ever be a priority at those hours, even if there were space in the timetable - given that there generally aren't any spare seats leaving Waterloo.

IF there are extra carriages to provide additional seats then these would be filled by Waterloo passengers fairly quickly. Much bigger problems out there before we need to worry about this one.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I can't remember now, but the Guildford (WK), Guildford (C) most definitely went fast from Wimbledon.

Dorking's used to miss out Earlsfield, as did the Guildford (EP) until mid evening when they did call.

 

[infobleep]

I can't remember now, but the Guildford (WK), Guildford (C) most definitely went fast from Wimbledon.

Dorking's used to miss out Earlsfield, as did the Guildford (EP) until mid evening when they did call.

Was that when less fast trains stopped at Clapham Junction.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought it was the turn of My Idea For Putting 508s On The Lymington Branch next (as we continue to play SWT Bingo)?

I'm not convinced that additional Clapham Junction stops would ever be a priority at those hours, even if there were space in the timetable - given that there generally aren't any spare seats leaving Waterloo.

IF there are extra carriages to provide additional seats then these would be filled by Waterloo passengers fairly quickly. Much bigger problems out there before we need to worry about this one.

Well perhaps they could introduce an easement allowing passengers for Clapham Junction to double back.

To get from Woking to Victoria in the morning costs £11. During high peak, NRE recommend getting the tube from Waterloo to Victoira. That not only takes longer than if one could change at Clapham Junction but costs an extra £3 for the pleasure.

Of course one can get a stopping service to Surbiton and them a stopping service to Clapham Junction and then a train to Victoira but they obviously consider that to be slower than the tube from. Waterloo.

Alternatively one can walk from Waterloo to Victoria.

Currently suburban trains are packed when they reach Clapham Junction in the morning. Perhaps they should miss Clapham Junction too, seeing as how busy they are. I jest.

Of course if they don't want to allow Clapham Junction services now then just say we don't want to do this and it will be sometime as we are to busy dealing with other issues. Just publicise to stop the questions.

In fact may be they should actively discourage passengers from using Clapham Junction.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[swt_passenger]

Will the pathing ever get looked at and altered to eliminate the need for the long waits at Southampton and Brockenhurst?

No, because the main purposes of the dwells is to make connections between fast and slow services, and to allow the fast and slow all stations stopping services to run on a two track railway without catching each other up.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

No, because the main purposes of the dwells is to make connections between fast and slow services, and to allow the fast and slow all stations stopping services to run on a two track railway without catching each other up.

Is part of that for making connections with the Lymington branch at Brockenhurst?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is part of that for making connections with the Lymington branch at Brockenhurst?

Not specifically. The Lymington trains are generally timed to connect with fast services to and from London after the morning peak, after 1000 the branch timings are shifted round the clock face to fit in with fast services.

This is all fairly obvious from SWT's current timetables 28 (Weymouth) & 27 (Lymington).

In the case of the Poole stopper in the down direction, you can catch a fast service from Waterloo and change at Southampton Central for minor stations until Brockenhurst, or change from a later fast service at Brockenhurst for minor stations until Bournemouth. You can see in timetable 28 how the down Poole service is shifted one or two columns to the right in the tables when it is overtaken.

https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/plan-your-journey/timetables/download-timetables/

 

[Wookiee]

I think its nearer 40 weeks for five days a week so 200 days per year.

I would be interested to know though how weekends would be included in a part time season ticket which is technically free on a full time season.

I thought they assumed travel on one out of every three weekends, or did that change when they reassessed the criteria a little while back?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well as old school all I can see is no real marked improvements at all from when I first started.

Waterloo - Guildford via either WK or C was 50' and last call Wimbledon.
Waterloo - Dorking was 40' and Chessington 30' dead.

It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for the so called mainline "fast" services.

They need serious improvements on:

Waterloo - Portsmouth via Guildford as it used to be about 80', with calls at Guildford, Haslemere, Havant, Southsea & Harbour, I managed to do one in just 66' Guildford - Havant, Southsea & Harbour.

They really should worry about the times there because the Hindhead tunnel gives you a car journey time of about 40' from Guildford to Portsmouth.

Waterloo - Bournemouth & Weymouth need to be reduced back to where they were in the 80's again to be competitive. As does the WoE line.

It beggars belief that modern trains' "fast" times are slower than their equivalents in the 80s and earlier. I also recall the days of the Portsmouth fasts being Havant, Guildford and Woking only. My preferred route to Waterloo (from Fareham) was via Southampton, picking up the 1hr09 fast stopping only at the airport.

 

[The Ham]

It beggars belief that modern trains' "fast" times are slower than their equivalents in the 80s and earlier. I also recall the days of the Portsmouth fasts being Havant, Guildford and Woking only. My preferred route to Waterloo (from Fareham) was via Southampton, picking up the 1hr09 fast stopping only at the airport.

A fast train may only be a few a day or one an hour, whilst the modern timetables ma have slower fast trains than those of old the frequency is greater. I would rather have a fast train every 30 minutes which is 10 minutes slower and one or two slow trains added in the mix, than a fast train which is every hour but with only one other services taking at least 20 minutes more time.

As if the one fast train gets me their too early but the slow train gets me there late, then that is no good to me. However, if (under the new timetable) the trains are every half an hour at most I'm only going to be 30 minutes too early meaning I can pick a service which more suites my requirements.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

A fast train may only be a few a day or one an hour, whilst the modern timetables ma have slower fast trains than those of old the frequency is greater. I would rather have a fast train every 30 minutes which is 10 minutes slower and one or two slow trains added in the mix, than a fast train which is every hour but with only one other services taking at least 20 minutes more time.

As if the one fast train gets me their too early but the slow train gets me there late, then that is no good to me. However, if (under the new timetable) the trains are every half an hour at most I'm only going to be 30 minutes too early meaning I can pick a service which more suites my requirements.

But you don't get a 30' fast service on the Portsmouth line after 1515, you have an hour to wait for the 1615 and again for 1715, because the service starts from either Fareham or Havant and the 1545/1645 are stopping services to pander to the public school club of Witley/Wormley (King Edwards) & Godalming (Charterhouse), plus the Rodborough & Broadwater lot.

The so called fast service on the direct is anything but because SN are always running late and you sit at HT19 at Havant Jn, to wait for them to cross and it's not uncommon to sit on HT19 for 4 or 5' because the signaller will not regulate the "fast" in front of a late SN service, come hell or high water.

The journey time from Petersfield to Havant is 12', we're allowed anything between 13 & 20' to do it. As it is I could use my TOC pass to go to Portsmouth, however it's now quicker for me to drive directly there, because of the Hindhead tunnel on the A3 has taken 15 or more minutes out of the journey time by road, so I can drive from where I live the 55 miles to the coast in about 55-60'. whereas a train takes 70-75' or even longer.

I don't use WoE line again because it's slow, I go across to Reading, down to Exeter that way, even if I want to go to somewhere like Honiton it's quicker to go Exeter by HST and back up!

Just about everywhere is quicker by road than train for me, unless it's London and even that's a shadow of what it was (35'-48') compared to 29'-37' before this so called more resilient timetable was introduced several years ago.

I'm not alone in thinking that the current timetable needs to be binned, because as any traveller who uses SWT frequently, will tell you it's as stable as a house of cards in gale, the slightest thing and it quickly collapses and if you throw a fatality into it, you'll be lucky if you see any meaningful service at all for the rest of the day.

Do I hold any hope for an improved timetable in the future? To be quite honest no, I expect more of the same slow & increasingly slower mainline services.

It needs to go back to the late 80's/early 90's timetable with the odd exception to get the SW Division back to what it was, instead of the bus company style of quantity of quality of service.

 

[Midmat]

Well as old school all I can see is no real marked improvements at all from when I first started.

Waterloo - Guildford via either WK or C was 50' and last call Wimbledon.
Waterloo - Dorking was 40' and Chessington 30' dead.

It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for the so called mainline "fast" services.

They need serious improvements on:

Waterloo - Portsmouth via Guildford as it used to be about 80', with calls at Guildford, Haslemere, Havant, Southsea & Harbour, I managed to do one in just 66' Guildford - Havant, Southsea & Harbour.

They really should worry about the times there because the Hindhead tunnel gives you a car journey time of about 40' from Guildford to Portsmouth.

Waterloo - Bournemouth & Weymouth need to be reduced back to where they were in the 80's again to be competitive. As does the WoE line.

Comment on mainline journey times:

The Department is not specifying any new maximum journey times on any Main Line route but
bidders may not increase the current fastest standard hour off peak journey time between
London Waterloo and each of Guildford; Portsmouth Harbour; Alton; Southampton Central;
Bournemouth; Weymouth; Salisbury; and Exeter St Davids.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-attachment-a-train-service-specification.pdf

Journey times just specced for main suburban and Windsor. For the suburban times you quoted above, they seem to be proposing to getting quite close to what you used to achieve which I think is quite a bit of improvement on what's done now. Still not quite sure how they are going to achieve it. Making sure dwell times are reduced significantly (max 45 seconds at busy stations, 30 seconds elsewhere) is mentioned but not sure you can do that with 455s (even if you took out most of the seating) - do you need something like the new crossrail stock?

Maximum Journey Time: Pattern SD1
DOWN
London Waterloo-Guildford via CSD 00:53
UP
Guildford- Waterloo via CSD 00:54

Maximum Journey Time: Pattern SE1
DOWN
London Waterloo-Chessington Sth 00:31
UP
Chessington Sth-London Waterloo 00:32

Maximum Journey Time: Pattern SC2
DOWN
Waterloo-Guildford via BKA 01:02
Waterloo-Epsom 00:32
Waterloo-Dorking (Main) 00:43
UP
Guildford-Waterloo via BKA 01:02
Epsom-Waterloo 00:32
Dorking (Main)-Waterloo 00:43

Link to journey times:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...chment-a-part3-journey-time-requirements.xlsx

 

[HarleyDavidson]

What really cheeses me off is that I know hand on heart that we can do so much better and offer far better journey times than what's currently on offer and if this rubbish timetable which dumbs things down to almost the lowest level continues then the proverbial penny will drop and passengers will revert to car usage, just as I have.

 

[HH]

What really cheeses me off is that I know hand on heart that we can do so much better and offer far better journey times than what's currently on offer and if this rubbish timetable which dumbs things down to almost the lowest level continues then the proverbial penny will drop and passengers will revert to car usage, just as I have.

This is the point. The timetable is overly padded so that compensation is not paid. Everyone involved has some responsibility for this dreadful state of affairs.

 

[swt_passenger]

It needs to go back to the late 80's/early 90's timetable with the odd exception to get the SW Division back to what it was, instead of the bus company style of quantity of quality of service.

Is that the one where Weymouth was served about once every two hours at different times all day, and places like Winchester and Southampton Parkway didn't get any calls in the fastest trains?

That'll go down well...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Is that the one where Weymouth was served about once every two hours at different times all day, and places like Winchester and Southampton Parkway didn't get any calls in the fastest trains?

That'll go down well...

Tosh I'm afraid. You could quite easily run two trains an hour to Weymouth, all it needs to resolve the issue is:

1, A power supply upgrade.

2. The reinstatement of the down line for the 4½ miles or so between Moreton & Dorchester.

Those two should be made part of the franchise as it would build in resilience into the system and improve service.

You can still run an hourly service to Weymouth on the old calling pattern of Parkway, Central, Bournemouth, Poole & all shacks to Weymouth.

You have XC either preceding the SW service or following it, no reason why the Poole service can't revert to its old pattern Woking, Basing, Winch, Eastleigh, Parkway, Central, Totton, Ashurst, Brock, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown and all to Poole.

The only difference is you now have a Waterloo - Portsmouth via Eastleigh which wasn't available prior to '88 or so and that can continue to do its current pattern quite easily.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is the point. The timetable is overly padded so that compensation is not paid. Everyone involved has some responsibility for this dreadful state of affairs.

Don't blame me I didn't write the rubbish timetable!

I could just destroy it if I wanted to, but most of the time I can't be bothered to.

More slack than nutty slack.

 

[greaterwest]

You have XC either preceding the SW service or following it, no reason why the Poole service can't revert to its old pattern Woking, Basing, Winch, Eastleigh, Parkway, Central, Totton, Ashurst, Brock, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown and all to Poole.

What about Fleet's 3rd train per hour and Farnborough's 4th train per hour?

How about Shawford? (though I suppose it could be put into the Portsmouth via Eastleigh services)

Beaulieu Road? Sway? Hinton Admiral?

How does omitting the call at Clapham and calling instead at Woking help anything?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Tosh I'm afraid. You could quite easily run two trains an hour to Weymouth, all it needs to resolve the issue is:

1, A power supply upgrade.

2. The reinstatement of the down line for the 4½ miles or so between Moreton & Dorchester.

Those two should be made part of the franchise as it would build in resilience into the system and improve service.

If they were to do that it should be done to allow all 2x444 or 3x450 (whichever draws the most power)

 

[HarleyDavidson]

What about Fleet's 3rd train per hour and Farnborough's 4th train per hour?

How about Shawford? (though I suppose it could be put into the Portsmouth via Eastleigh services)

Beaulieu Road? Sway? Hinton Admiral?

How does omitting the call at Clapham and calling instead at Woking help anything?

Extend the Basingstoke stopper to/from Southampton adding Shawford/Swaything/St Denys. It avoids conflicting moves across the junction at Basingstoke to/from Barton Mill/Long Valley.

Run one Weymouth per hour as 10x444 to Southampton Central, divide or combine there.

Front 5 fast to Brock, rear all shacks to Poole.

Clapham Jn can be served with Southampton, Haslemere & Alton services, plus a stopper from Salisbury.

 

[greaterwest]

Extend the Basingstoke stopper to/from Southampton adding Shawford/Swaything/St Denys. It avoids conflicting moves across the junction at Basingstoke to/from Barton Mill/Long Valley.

Run one Weymouth per hour as 10x444 to Southampton Central, divide or combine there.

Front 5 fast to Brock, rear all shacks to Poole.

Clapham Jn can be served with Southampton, Haslemere & Alton services, plus a stopper from Salisbury.

Which Basingstoke stopper? Would it be an alternating service (one So'ton stopper, one B/stoke stopper) or would they both be extended to So'ton?

What about in the evening peak where everything between Woking and Basingstoke is served by a Basingstoke stopper?

Also again, Fleet/Farnborough's daytime 3rd/4th tph respectively?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Which Basingstoke stopper? Would it be an alternating service (one So'ton stopper, one B/stoke stopper) or would they both be extended to So'ton?

What about in the evening peak where everything between Woking and Basingstoke is served by a Basingstoke stopper?

Also again, Fleet/Farnborough's daytime 3rd/4th tph respectively?

St Denys & Swaythling get served by the Sarum 6 service, so you could start one from Eastleigh, one from Southampton (being on the ½ hour that the Sarum 6 doesn't run) and fast Southampton - Parkway.

And where do the 1T's call now? Woking, Farnborough, so no difference there.

Basingstoke has more than adequate service provision in the peaks, look at the departures board at Waterloo.

 

[swt_passenger]

Extend the Basingstoke stopper to/from Southampton adding Shawford/Swaything/St Denys. It avoids conflicting moves across the junction at Basingstoke to/from Barton Mill/Long Valley.

Run one Weymouth per hour as 10x444 to Southampton Central, divide or combine there.

Front 5 fast to Brock, rear all shacks to Poole.

Clapham Jn can be served with Southampton, Haslemere & Alton services, plus a stopper from Salisbury.

Presumably you put all this in your consultation response?