New stations for Leeds

[rich r]

Erm, Deltic08 did write feet.

600ft is approx 200m
Luton Airport's altitude is 160m, or 520ft if you prefer. It just doesn't have the steep drops to valleys nearby like Leeds does.

They are however quite different in terms of passenger numbers and proximity of main roads.

 

[deltic08]

Just keeping that box of crayons and the map open for a moment, if it where possible to get a heavy rail solution up at least part of the incline towards the long stay car park, would it not be better to seek a 'final mile' engineering solution to bring the line closer to the terminal building? Say a short bored or cut & covered section, rather than abandoning the line some distance away?.

That would be the ideal solution but tunnelling between longstay park and terminal would be more expensive that a monorail or bus.

The present plan is to build a two platform station in a currently grade listed stonewall retained deep cutting many feet below an airport with a mile long road connecting the two with a very steep gradient. A monorail has been suggested.

To avoid the cost of widening this cutting and disturbing the walls, my suggestion is to extend the Horsforth turnback siding to the longstay car park for local, regular commuters. This will remove the need of a bus or monorail between parking your car and catching a train to Leeds which is a deterrent to travel as well as longer journey time by adding connection time at change of mode. A monorail would connect from here to the terminal building for airport passengers only.

You can shove your crayons in an upwardly direction for even mentioning them.

 

[quantinghome]

Erm, Deltic08 did write feet.

Err, yes. I kind of assumed people would be able to do the conversion. I wasn't correcting deltic08's elevations, but was showing that the premise of his argument is wrong. Luton airport is at a similar height as LBA and has a similar height difference to its Parkway station.

 

[deltic08]

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make, but you might want to check some elevations:

Luton Airport: 160m
Luton Airport parkway: 105-110m

Leeds-Bradford Airport: 200m
Proposed parkway: ~120m

I think you have made the point for me. The difference in height between parkway station and airport is twice as much at LBA with only one mile between the two as the crow flies. That makes the gradient to LBA steep.

That is why I suggested extending the turnback siding from further back instead of the proposed shuttle bus.

 

[Deerfold]

Err, yes. I kind of assumed people would be able to do the conversion. I wasn't correcting deltic08's elevations, but was showing that the premise of his argument is wrong. Luton airport is at a similar height as LBA and has a similar height difference to its Parkway station.

But your figures show that the difference in elevation for LBA is about 60% higher whilst Luton Airport is about 60% further from the parkway station so the incline at LBA is 250% that at Luton.

 

[Bantamzen]

That would be the ideal solution but tunnelling between longstay park and terminal would be more expensive that a monorail or bus.

Yes it would, but equally it would improve the viability of the line by actually serving something other than a car park.

The present plan is to build a two platform station in a currently grade listed stonewall retained deep cutting many feet below an airport with a mile long road connecting the two with a very steep gradient. A monorail has been suggested.

To avoid the cost of widening this cutting and disturbing the walls, my suggestion is to extend the Horsforth turnback siding to the longstay car park for local, regular commuters. This will remove the need of a bus or monorail between parking your car and catching a train to Leeds which is a deterrent to travel as well as longer journey time by adding connection time at change of mode. A monorail would connect from here to the terminal building for airport passengers only.

You can shove your crayons in an upwardly direction for even mentioning them.

So you would build the extension on the premise of an airport connection, but really intending primarily to use it as a park & ride into Leeds? I'm sure Bridgepoint would be more than happy to turn over the long stay car park into a park & ride. And you still have to build a monorail to make it remotely useful for LBA bound passengers?

 

[DarloRich]

I'm not sure you can predict future outcomes just based on the volumes of airport users. It may be viable at Luton because that has approx. three times the numbers of passengers as Leeds. However East Midlands has approx. 25% more passengers than Leeds and the airport link doesn't seem to be a great success there.

Mainly because East Midlands it isnt, really, an airport parkway station. I don't even think it has a bus link to the airport!

Maybe it does work well at Luton, but Luton airport is not on a hill 600 feet up, is not 200 feet above a parkway railway station only just over a mile away. You are not comparing like with like.

It is fairly similar. Luton Airport is on top of a hill some distance above its station and is about a mile away form that station. It works so well they are on about building some kind of light rail effort to replace the bus. The station itself is one of (not the sole) reasons why passenger numbers have increased at the airport.

I appreciate the topography & passenger numbers are are different but in the real world where finance is limited you have to make the best of what is given to you. There isnt money for a fancy alpine railway system serving a car park. There is money for a station with a bus link. Surely a station is better than the current no station arrangement?

 

[quantinghome]

But your figures show that the difference in elevation for LBA is about 60% higher whilst Luton Airport is about 60% further from the parkway station so the incline at LBA is 250% that at Luton.

I think you have made the point for me. The difference in height between parkway station and airport is twice as much at LBA with only one mile between the two as the crow flies. That makes the gradient to LBA steep.

Well, I guess this goes to show that people see what they want to see. Looking at the maps, the straight line distance looks to be slightly over a mile in both cases. If anything it's a bit further for Leeds than Luton. 250% is a wild overestimate.

Luton airport is 55m above its parkway. LBA is 80m above its proposed parkway. This is higher, obviously, but not by much. As Darlorich has pointed out, it is fairly similar. It's not like Luton is on a flat plain in comparison to Leeds.

Anyway, arguments over numbers aside I don't see why gradients would be a problem for a shuttle bus. Buses are running up and down far steeper hills all over the country without difficulty. And if it was a problem for a bus, it'll be even more of a problem for a train.

 

[Deerfold]

Mainly because East Midlands it isnt, really, an airport parkway station. I don't even think it has a bus link to the airport!

There is, but it's £6 for the 10 minute journey.

http://www.emarailink.co.uk

 

[Chester1]

I think you have made the point for me. The difference in height between parkway station and airport is twice as much at LBA with only one mile between the two as the crow flies. That makes the gradient to LBA steep.

That is why I suggested extending the turnback siding from further back instead of the proposed shuttle bus.

An 80m climb in 1 mile is 1 in 20 gradient, the turnback would probably need to begin a mile earlier to make it usable for an EMU. The alternative would be tram trains, which could probably manage a 1 in 20 gradient.

Edit: I thought you were suggesting a rail link. Frankly, any option is viable depending on the budget. A bus link would be the least attractive option for airport passengers. Tram train would make the most sense if it could be funded because it could be the beginning of a wider system.

 

[quantinghome]

Tram train would make the most sense if it could be funded because it could be the beginning of a wider system.

If you want to build a wider tram system, you need to make sure that the first line is a success. There are a number of reasons why a tram-train line to the airport would not be:

1. Successful tram systems in the UK have tended to be self-contained. There would be significant complexity running both tram and heavy rail systems on the same tracks between Leeds and Horsforth.
2. There is no operational tram-train system in the country at present. In fact there are very few in the world. While there might be good reasons for not having a conventional tram or metro system in Leeds, the relative lack of take-up of tram-train technology should be taken as a warning sign.
3. LBA is not a major traffic generator within West Yorkshire, and airport rail links tend to be used by only a minority of passengers (15% in the case of Manchester Airport, which is very well connected by rail).

I see significant risks that a tram-train to the airport would be unreliable, expensive to build, technologically problematic, and suffer from poor patronage. That would kill any future prospects of a wider tram network in Leeds.

 

[DarloRich]

There is, but it's £6 for the 10 minute journey.

http://www.emarailink.co.uk

Thanks - i didn't know it still ran! It is £2 at Luton.

EDIT - EMA isnt a bus. It is a cab service

 

[brompton rail]

Thanks - i didn't know it still ran! It is £2 at Luton.

EDIT - EMA isnt a bus. It is a cab service

There are, of course, more frequent and regular Bus Links with East Midlands Airport. Skyline buses run to Derby Midland, Loughborough and Leicester as well as Long Easton station and Nottingham. Both routes have a twenty minute service though the journey time to Long Easton is almost half an hour, and to Derby about 40 minutes. I'm not sure how close the Loughborough bus stop is to the station, whilst the Nottingham bus goes to Broadmarsh ( 5 minute walk to Midland station) and the Leicester terminal is St Margaret's, a good 12 minute trek to Leicester station.

Arguments for rail service directly to Airports usually fail because the passengers don't always want to go to the nearest town centre, they are often going home and so taxi (hire car) or relatives can provide transport.

Doncaster Airport (Finningley) is often put forward as somewhere that should be linked to the rail network. But the railway isn't close to the Terminal (about 600m) and there aren't the numbers of passengers travelling to join trains at Doncaster to pay for it. There is an express (nearly!) bus every half hour to Doncaster Interchange but it is never anywhere near full.

 

[bluenoxid]

An 80m climb in 1 mile is 1 in 20 gradient, the turnback would probably need to begin a mile earlier to make it usable for an EMU. The alternative would be tram trains, which could probably manage a 1 in 20 gradient.

Edit: I thought you were suggesting a rail link. Frankly, any option is viable depending on the budget. A bus link would be the least attractive option for airport passengers. Tram train would make the most sense if it could be funded because it could be the beginning of a wider system.

This is the problem. If it could be funded and subsidised, a rail link of some form would be great. However, when you consider the issues that urban West Yorkshire faces, diverting millions that could relieve the daily crippling congestion into an airport link is incredibly dangerous. My view is that West Yorks should get a railway station in then tell the airport they need to get on with a growth plan if they want any more support!

 

[deltic08]

Yes it would, but equally it would improve the viability of the line by actually serving something other than a car park.



So you would build the extension on the premise of an airport connection, but really intending primarily to use it as a park & ride into Leeds? I'm sure Bridgepoint would be more than happy to turn over the long stay car park into a park & ride. And you still have to build a monorail to make it remotely useful for LBA bound passengers?

More commuters are likely to use it daily for travel into Leeds than occasional passengers from Leeds to the airport so there is nothing wrong with rail to a longstay car park with bus or some other means from there to the airport.

 

[deltic08]

An 80m climb in 1 mile is 1 in 20 gradient, the turnback would probably need to begin a mile earlier to make it usable for an EMU. The alternative would be tram trains, which could probably manage a 1 in 20 gradient.

Edit: I thought you were suggesting a rail link. Frankly, any option is viable depending on the budget. A bus link would be the least attractive option for airport passengers. Tram train would make the most sense if it could be funded because it could be the beginning of a wider system.

The distance from the proposed parkway station to airport is a mile. The distance from the turnback siding to the longstay car park is nearly two miles but at less altitude than the airport so would be about 1 in 40.

Surely two miles of plain line, single track new railway with single platform would cost no more than just under a mile of two way road and two platforms in a remote deep cutting? Electrification, if ever electrified, would be additional cost.

 

[deltic08]

Mainly because East Midlands it isnt, really, an airport parkway station. I don't even think it has a bus link to the airport!



It is fairly similar. Luton Airport is on top of a hill some distance above its station and is about a mile away form that station. It works so well they are on about building some kind of light rail effort to replace the bus. The station itself is one of (not the sole) reasons why passenger numbers have increased at the airport.

I appreciate the topography & passenger numbers are are different but in the real world where finance is limited you have to make the best of what is given to you. There isnt money for a fancy alpine railway system serving a car park. There is money for a station with a bus link. Surely a station is better than the current no station arrangement?

There is a station already not far away where a bus link could run from but as far as I know, it has been unsuccessful. It is called Horsforth. What makes you and others think another station costing £23m more and bus link will be any more successful?

 

[Cakestall]

There is a station already not far away where a bus link could run from but as far as I know, it has been unsuccessful. It is called Horsforth. What makes you and others think another station costing £23m more and bus link will be any more successful?

As i mentioned earlier its a Trojan Horse Station that will open up the North end of Horsforth and the West of Cookridge to Suburban expansion.[/I]

 

[bluenoxid]

The distance from the proposed parkway station to airport is a mile. The distance from the turnback siding to the longstay car park is nearly two miles but at less altitude than the airport so would be about 1 in 40.

Surely two miles of plain line, single track new railway with single platform would cost no more than just under a mile of two way road and two platforms in a remote deep cutting? Electrification, if ever electrified, would be additional cost.

A lot of it will depend how it is integrated into the existing and proposed road system. I am concerned that you believe that electrification could be a later add on. It should be integrated into the costs otherwise your proposal is looking at fully deprecated Pacers or brand new diesels. We are seeing the cost per mile of new projects accelerating further and your proposal will also need further work to accommodate your services into Leeds city centre.

There is a station already not far away where a bus link could run from but as far as I know, it has been unsuccessful. It is called Horsforth. What makes you and others think another station costing £23m more and bus link will be any more successful?

I don't recall a bus link to Horsforth.

Existing links have been throttled by unreliability due to the existing road network and additional costs from running a scheduled service to the operator and and passenger. Any link from Horsforth would require substantial works on a new access road out of Horsforth that could be cut by creating a new station

It is a matter of understanding the costs of upgrading Horsforth and linking it (fixed and operational) versus the costs of creating a new station and linking it (fixed and operational).

 

[deltic08]

A lot of it will depend how it is integrated into the existing and proposed road system. I am concerned that you believe that electrification could be a later add on. It should be integrated into the costs otherwise your proposal is looking at fully deprecated Pacers or brand new diesels. We are seeing the cost per mile of new projects accelerating further and your proposal will also need further work to accommodate your services into Leeds city centre.

The reason for relaying the turnback siding at Horsforth was to allow a Leeds-Horsforth all stations shuttle to connect into the fast Leeds-Harrogate service introduced in December 2017. This would be the suitable service to extend to LBA. Capacity has already been found in Leeds for this service.

No point electrifying the branch until the Harrogate Loop or at least Leeds-Horsforth is electrified.

 

[deltic08]

I don't recall a bus link to Horsforth.

Existing links have been throttled by unreliability due to the existing road network and additional costs from running a scheduled service to the operator and and passenger. Any link from Horsforth would require substantial works on a new access road out of Horsforth that could be cut by creating a new station

It is a matter of understanding the costs of upgrading Horsforth and linking it (fixed and operational) versus the costs of creating a new station and linking it (fixed and operational).

I thought there was a shuttle bus introduced before Jet2 became established. Now is the time to try again before embarking on £23m worth of white elephant.

 

[edwin_m]

There are, of course, more frequent and regular Bus Links with East Midlands Airport. Skyline buses run to Derby Midland, Loughborough and Leicester as well as Long Easton station and Nottingham. Both routes have a twenty minute service though the journey time to Long Easton is almost half an hour, and to Derby about 40 minutes. I'm not sure how close the Loughborough bus stop is to the station, whilst the Nottingham bus goes to Broadmarsh ( 5 minute walk to Midland station) and the Leicester terminal is St Margaret's, a good 12 minute trek to Leicester station.

Arguments for rail service directly to Airports usually fail because the passengers don't always want to go to the nearest town centre, they are often going home and so taxi (hire car) or relatives can provide transport.

Doncaster Airport (Finningley) is often put forward as somewhere that should be linked to the rail network. But the railway isn't close to the Terminal (about 600m) and there aren't the numbers of passengers travelling to join trains at Doncaster to pay for it. There is an express (nearly!) bus every half hour to Doncaster Interchange but it is never anywhere near full.

For information, there is also Skylink Express from Nottingham that calls at the Midland Station and Clifton tram terminus then fast to the airport, but it isn't carrying many passengers. Incidentally it's Skylink and Long Eaton.

I think you're dead right with the city centre issue. Luton was mentioned up-thread but a large proportion of its passengers will have origins/destinations in central London or places that can easily be reached by connecting there. There is a frequent London train service passing through the Parkway, so the number of passengers makes it easy to justify stopping most of the trains there.

Both LBIA and EMA have fewer passengers to start with, and they are travelling to/from several city centres or many more surrounding places. So the expectation of rail patronage for either of these airports will be much lower than at Luton.

 

[bluenoxid]

I thought there was a shuttle bus introduced before Jet2 became established. Now is the time to try again before embarking on £23m worth of white elephant.

I could have missed that. Testing a shuttle on the existing road system is not going to be successful. We dont have time for a trial unfortunately because the funding allocation needs to be spent.

The reason for relaying the turnback siding at Horsforth was to allow a Leeds-Horsforth all stations shuttle to connect into the fast Leeds-Harrogate service introduced in December 2017. This would be the suitable service to extend to LBA. Capacity has already been found in Leeds for this service.

No point electrifying the branch until the Harrogate Loop or at least Leeds-Horsforth is electrified.

My understanding was that the plan was 4tph off the Harrogate line, not 6tph.

Whilst a Leeds to Horsforth service being extended would be a possible option, using your proposal means that Leeds Bradford Airport gets a drop in frequency to half hourly rather than every 15 minutes that a railway station on the Harrogate line could support and 20 minutes on the current bus link. I am concerned that a branch line terminating in a windswept car park is not going to do as well as an interchange on the Harrogate line.

 

[Grumpy]

. We dont have time for a trial unfortunately because the funding allocation needs to be spent.

Which nicely sums up why so much money is wasted by Public Servants

 

[Iskra]

At 1300 today the BBC announced they were expecting the 'green light' on the below projects, but then never bothered to comment any further. Anyone heard if there has been progress? I've checked the WYMetro and Leeds City Council websites and there is nothing mentioned.

Listen: Improvements to Leeds public transport move a step closer
Posted at 13:07

Multi-million pound improvements to public transport in Leeds are expected to get the green light later.

Under Leeds City Council's plans, most buses would run every 10 minutes, and three new railway stations would be built - including one near Leeds Bradford Airport.

If approved, the next step will be working out more detailed plans.

Ray Wilkes, from West Yorkshire Campaign for Better Transport, says taking more cars off the city's roads is essential:

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-leeds-40338260

More detail from previous BBC article:

Three new railway stations, including one near Leeds Bradford Airport, have been proposed as part of a £270m transport plan in Leeds.
Stations at the White Rose shopping centre and at Thorpe Park make up the trio of planned stops.
They are to be part-funded by money for the city's rejected trolleybus scheme.
Leeds got about £174m from the Department of Transport for the trolleybus and the funds need to be used by 2020-21.
For more on this and other West Yorkshire stories
The proposed new station about one mile (1.6km) from the airport would also act as a park and ride for commuters to Leeds and Harrogate.
Money from the West Yorkshire Combined Authority and the private sector would also contribute to the £270m cost, said the council.
A mass transit scheme for Leeds is still being considered but would need "significant additional investment and not be deliverable by 2021".
The council also drew up three options in 2015 for increasing road access to the airport by new link road.
Expansion plans have been unveiled for the airport to help it double the number of passengers.
The new rail proposals are to be considered by senior councillors on 14 December and if approved would go to the Department for Transport.

Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38206075

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the proposed station for White Rose Centre, has it been decided whether to site it on the London & North Western Railway side (the present route to Manchester/Stockport/London Euston via Huddersfield), or the Great Northern Railway side (the present route to Doncaster and London Kings Cross via Wakefield Westgate)?

Another point regarding the White Rose Centre to make it accessible by metal boxes on metal wheels that run on metal rails - would it be better for Leeds to follow on from Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, Croydon, and Nottingham* to bring back trams?

I have noticed that the tram system in Sheffield serves 2 out of town shopping centres - the famous Medowhall and the not so famous Crystal Peaks.

*I am aware that Edinburgh brought back trams, but it is not a world class system as compared with other towns and cities in the UK and mainland Europe. It was dreadfully planned and designed, various huge cost overruns, and as it was Jack McConnell who signed off the project when he was First Minister of the Scottish Parliament, he was an arch-Blairite who totally embraced the New Labour project, of which they were not new, and were most certainly not Labour.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would Cottingley station be affected by a station serving the White Rose Centre, as I recall this being mentioned a couple of years ago?

 

[DarloRich]

Regarding the proposed station for White Rose Centre, has it been decided whether to site it on the London & North Western Railway side (the present route to Manchester/Stockport/London Euston via Huddersfield), or the Great Northern Railway side (the present route to Doncaster and London Kings Cross via Wakefield Westgate)?

Another point regarding the White Rose Centre to make it accessible by metal boxes on metal wheels that run on metal rails - would it be better for Leeds to follow on from Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, Croydon, and Nottingham* to bring back trams?

I have noticed that the tram system in Sheffield serves 2 out of town shopping centres - the famous Medowhall and the not so famous Crystal Peaks.

*I am aware that Edinburgh brought back trams, but it is not a world class system as compared with other towns and cities in the UK and mainland Europe. It was dreadfully planned and designed, various huge cost overruns, and as it was Jack McConnell who signed off the project when he was First Minister of the Scottish Parliament, he was an arch-Blairite who totally embraced the New Labour project, of which they were not new, and were most certainly not Labour.

I might be tempted to look into the history of proposed light rail systems in Leeds...............

(I ignore the second part of your statement)

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Düsseldorf airport has a 2.5 km monorail connecting it to its car parks and Düsseldorf Flughafen station, which is used by fast trains to the north. Would this be a possible solution for airports like Luton and Yeadon?

 

[Bantamzen]

Would Cottingley station be affected by a station serving the White Rose Centre, as I recall this being mentioned a couple of years ago?

In the event of a new station for the White Rose centre, I can't imagine much a of future for Cottingley especially given it's proximity and the forthcoming x6 TPE per hour fast / semi-fasts / skip-stoppers.

Saying that, I can't really see the White Rose stop going ahead, Leeds often talks about grand new schemes before reality sets in. Talking of which.....

I might be tempted to look into the history of proposed light rail systems in Leeds...............

Indeed, there is zero to less chance of any light rail scheme ever even getting to planning stages, let alone actually being built. And further talking of which.....

Düsseldorf airport has a 2.5 km monorail connecting it to its car parks and Düsseldorf Flughafen station, which is used by fast trains to the north. Would this be a possible solution for airports like Luton and Yeadon?

Given the gradient up from the Harrogate line to the terminal building, let alone the cost versus potential ridership, I seriously doubt we'll be seeing anything like this at LBA any time soon.