New stations for Leeds

[swt_passenger]

Does it give any indication if both Harrogate & Bradford are the same service to Leeds & split, or will the pathing be a Bradford service one hour & a Harrogate the other?

There seems to be an hourly extension of a Leeds service to Bradford. Then a separate 2 hourly service to Harrogate via Leeds, leaving Kings Cross in opposite hours to a 2 hourly Lincoln service.

 

[Grimsby town]

While they are spot on with regards to the issues that they identify such as lack of multiple stations within Leeds, I think the solutions are unworkable in practice.

Putting a station or 4 tracking the viaduct east of Leeds will be very difficult and costly. The line east of Leeds is already incredibly short of capacity meaning that the stopping services often get delayed while letting though TPE services. As others have mentioned Wakefield is quite busy stop for London services so needs at least one direct train.

I personally think the solution to Leeds rail issues is a tunnel similar to that built in Leipzig. The tunnel would use the current freight line that diverges at neville hill and runs towards the River Aire where it will enter a tunnel. A first station will be provided at Leeds Dock. The tunnel will then join with a second tunneled route from Stourton and continue northward with stations at the southern end of the HS2 station, city square /classic station, Leeds Beckett Uni / General infirmary, Hyde Park / University of Leeds and at Headingly Stadia before joining the Harrogate Line.

Services off the Hallam Line, Castleford Line, York and Selby stoppers can all be run through the tunnel which could also provide direct semi fast services from Harrogate to Sheffield via Barnsley. Some services can turn back at Horsforth with some running through to Harrogate / York and potentially new stations at LBA, Otley and Ripon.

Four tracking would be provided between Neville Hill and Thorpe Park where fast services can use HS2 to travel to York.

The benefits of this scheme would be bypassing the area east of Leeds that is difficult to four track, providing multiple new stations in Leeds in areas that are hard to walk around due topography, providing more capacity for trains running to Manchester, Bradford and Skipton by diverting Harrogate and Hallam services away from the main station. A station at Headingly Stadia will also be more convenient for central Headingly than the current station.

This will cost a couple of billion but as far as I can think it solves a lot of issues with Leeds' current rail network and negates the need for a tram train that is being suggested currently for the Harrogate Line.

 

[xotGD]

There seems to be an hourly extension of a Leeds service to Bradford. Then a separate 2 hourly service to Harrogate via Leeds, leaving Kings Cross in opposite hours to a 2 hourly Lincoln service.

So does this equate to 5 trains every two hours KX - Leeds? (Up from the current 4)

 

[Deerfold]

So does this equate to 5 trains every two hours KX - Leeds? (Up from the current 4)

About that.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/east-coast/

 

[xotGD]

About that.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/east-coast/

Thanks for the link. I'm looking forward to more 2-hour journey times. Presumably that means more trains non-stop from Wakefield to KX.

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks for the link. I'm looking forward to more 2-hour journey times. Presumably that means more trains non-stop from Wakefield to KX.

I suspect they'll stop at Doncaster for connections. Or the faster trains will be the ones omitting Wakefield.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A big downside of extra underground platforms at Leeds is the closeness of the River Aire, along with said river having a tendency to get overwhelmed every 2-3 years...

That's before you get into the cost, too. The only way I could see Leeds or Bristol having any form of subterranean railway is if Elon Musk's Hyperloop research leads to a vastly more cost-effective means of tunnelling!

 

[deltic08]

Not sure if this has come up before, but seems an interesting article:

http://www.citymetric.com/transport/here-s-how-fix-leeds-railway-network-3328

As part of trans Pennine route upgrade, Leeds station to Marsh Lane will be widened to three tracks along the viaduct with the middle track bi-directional and four tracks onward to at least Garforth before electrification. This is to be completed in 2022.
Following that will be partial quadrifying of the Leeds-Doncaster route. At the moment I cannot find out which sections. This will enable increased local services without delaying ECML services and enable East Coast to provide sub 2-hour Leeds-London services prior to HS2. I suspect it will be between Hare Park Junction and Doncaster with a connection off the Pontefract line at South Elmsall so freight can be diverted off the York-Doncaster ECML line via Church Fenton, Pontefract, Doncaster then via Lincoln to Peterborough without touching the ECML fast lines.
The proposed East Leeds Orbital Road costing £120m has been planned without investigation of sustainable transport provision first as laid down by Government as in the Barking Riverside development where a rail link has to be built before building 10,000 houses can begin. The developers and Leeds City Council may have to think again before building the proposed 7,000 houses development either side of the old Cross Gates-Wetherby line without reinstating this line to at least the A64 where a P&R facility is planned anyway. 7,000 houses can produce 20,000 trips daily on weekdays. This number cannot be moved in the peaks by car and/or bus as Leeds is already gridlocked. Rail is the only solution by extending services from the west through Leeds station to an A64 parkway type station.
I am hoping that the junction at Cross Gates and 3 miles of branchline is installed concurrently with quadrupling in 2022 and electrified with TP electrification to reduce costs.
If a link is required between Castleford and east facing bays at Leeds why not reinstate the Kippax branch to Garforth with stations at Allerton Bywater, Kippax and South Garforth? The last time I looked, the trackbed was clear and undeveloped. This would eliminate the need for reversing at Castleford for Wakefield and Knottingley trains.

 

[yorksrob]

There is some merit in making use of the Hambleton curve (assuming it gets wired eventually) for at least the Bradford FS / Harrogate services when VTEC start to run them every 2 hours. I'm sure quite how VTEC will path these, as separate paths throughout or splitting / joining at Leeds, but ether way although Wakefield might lose some of it's London-bound services, it could also make a bit more space for more stoppers, especially in the peaks. But it would reduce conflicts on the western approach, and because dwell times could be reduced it would also free up a bit of through capacity.

I vaguely recall that that was the plan for the "electric horseshoe" back in the day. Of course, since then we've gone to two London trains per hour via Wakefield, so whether we've gotten too used to two London trains an hour I don't know.

 

[lejog]

Back in the real world, I am told that the number of through trains through Leeds is actually reducing in the new timetables. At the moment, until any upgrades take place east of Leeds, all the fast services have to fit into two 15minute windows between the stoppers. Any delays on the Calder Valley line cause the stoppers to be late, feeding into the delays into TPE/XC services (and vice versa of course). Also Blackpool services from York which call additionally at Church Fenton every 2 hours have to wait there for 8 minutes for their path.

So in order to improve reliability, the York and Selby stoppers are to start at Leeds, with the Blackpool service running fast from Leeds to York.

 

[backontrack]

There is of course the problem that the London trains are much longer than the local trains and the stations they call at. Also, if you remove Wakefield from the London route, all the people who used to change there now have to go via Leeds.

Or via Doncaster on the Northern stopper through Adwick.

 

[backontrack]

I think the York-Castleford idea carries water, but travel times simply wouldn't be competitive. Although there's a big need to free up paths between Micklefield and Leeds, the York-Blackpool services also connect York to Bradford and Halifax. Slowing those down so much doesn't help anybody.

A much better way of doing it would be to extend the current Northern services from Huddersfield to Wakefield through to Castleford and York.

I also think there's an argument for possibly re-routing some of the York-Leeds all-stops through a reopened Kippax line (with Cross Gates calls being picked up by the slower TransPennine trains or even possibly Wetherby services). Someone else with more knowledge may be able to make that workable.

 

[unslet]

Reinstating the line through Kippax was seriously considered about 25 years ago.A very vociferous group of nimbys in the then fairly new estates of Garforth saw that one off.Remember AGRAG anyone?
I don't imagine it would be any different today.

 

[billio]

Problems with the number of trains running through Leeds could be solved to a limited extent by running some services from Church Fenton/Gascoigne Wood through Castleford to Leeds and Wakefield. Apart from taking services off the Micklefield - Leeds route, it would create new business at the same time.

I fail to see why this obvious development does not take place.

 

[bluenoxid]

I haven't seen any proposals for a third track east of Leeds on the viaduct. I didn't think that there was the space. Is there any documentation on this Deltic08

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Everyone always goes on about how great White Rose would be, but with all the bl%$^y shopping areas in Leeds itself these days I struggle to see the point to be quite honest

The airport idea also seems good on paper, but good luck getting your suitcases on a Northern Rail service between Leeds and Harrogate at peak times!

Yeah, why not electrify the line up to LBA and use a 333 on a shuttle service between it Leeds City Centre!

 

[alexl92]

Is there actually any realistic prospect of any part of the Cross Gates - Wetherby line being reinstated? I'm aware that through Collingham/Bardsey it would have to be re-routed...

 

[Deerfold]

Or via Doncaster on the Northern stopper through Adwick.

That's OK for those on the line between them, but those who came from Huddersfield or Pontefract are likely to change at Leeds if the trains skip Wakefield.

 

[deltic08]

I haven't seen any proposals for a third track east of Leeds on the viaduct. I didn't think that there was the space. Is there any documentation on this Deltic08

Verbal from one of the team working on TP route upgrade.

 

[deltic08]

Is there actually any realistic prospect of any part of the Cross Gates - Wetherby line being reinstated? I'm aware that through Collingham/Bardsey it would have to be re-routed...

We will have to await the result of the East Leeds Orbital Road planning hearing. If sustainable options have not been considered then yes, Cross Gates-A64 on a slightly more westerly route has a good chance.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's OK for those on the line between them, but those who came from Huddersfield or Pontefract are likely to change at Leeds if the trains skip Wakefield.

Currently, Leeds is a better option than Wakefield anyway in most cases- for Huddersfield it means 5 connections per hour (7 including the stoppers) as opposed to just one. For PonteCarlo you have 1tph to Leeds and 1tph to Wakefield- seems even enough but for the Wakefield service serving the wrong station the vast majority of the time. If you're not using the GC service, you may as well go to Leeds.

 

[yorksrob]

Currently, Leeds is a better option than Wakefield anyway in most cases- for Huddersfield it means 5 connections per hour (7 including the stoppers) as opposed to just one. For PonteCarlo you have 1tph to Leeds and 1tph to Wakefield- seems even enough but for the Wakefield service serving the wrong station the vast majority of the time. If you're not using the GC service, you may as well go to Leeds.

Sorry, but its just not going to be convenient traipsing all the way into Leeds to get a train to London, and it's going to be even worse getting one back to there of an evening when all the local trains have stopped and we're faced with a £30 taxi fare.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sorry, but its just not going to be convenient traipsing all the way into Leeds to get a train to London, and it's going to be even worse getting one back to there of an evening when all the local trains have stopped and we're faced with a £30 taxi fare.

I agree that for Wakefield residents, losing the Westgate call would be a real pain in the backside... Though I was responding to Deerfold's post about how the loss of Wakefield Westgate calls would affect passengers changing for places like Huddersfield and Pontefract. In those cases, a reduction in Westgate calls is not a huge problem due to Leeds having equivalent or better connections. Evening services are another matter, and of course a later last service on all local routes should be a priority.

In any case, surely the proposal is not even close to suggesting that Wakefield Westgate loses ALL London services?

 

[bluenoxid]

I agree that for Wakefield residents, losing the Westgate call would be a real pain in the backside... Though I was responding to Deerfold's post about how the loss of Wakefield Westgate calls would affect passengers changing for places like Huddersfield and Pontefract. In those cases, a reduction in Westgate calls is not a huge problem due to Leeds having equivalent or better connections. Evening services are another matter, and of course a later last service on all local routes should be a priority.

In any case, surely the proposal is not even close to suggesting that Wakefield Westgate loses ALL London services?

I've not really paid much attention to this but have there been any proposals published that detail possible services after HS2 opens. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that existing Leeds to London services are changed.

For example, long distance stopping services doing 100/110 would not be unreasonable.

 

[deltic08]

I agree that for Wakefield residents, losing the Westgate call would be a real pain in the backside... Though I was responding to Deerfold's post about how the loss of Wakefield Westgate calls would affect passengers changing for places like Huddersfield and Pontefract. In those cases, a reduction in Westgate calls is not a huge problem due to Leeds having equivalent or better connections. Evening services are another matter, and of course a later last service on all local routes should be a priority.

In any case, surely the proposal is not even close to suggesting that Wakefield Westgate loses ALL London services?

Anything to reduce congestion at Leeds by making connections elsewhere. £millions are to be spent at Leeds to increase capacity. Would this be needed if connections can be made elsewhere at less cost?
How much traffic could be diverted away from Leeds if money was spent connecting both stations in Bradford for Aire Valley-Calder Valley/Huddersfield traffic or reinstating Skipton-Colne for Aire Valley-East Lancs/Manchester traffic instead of spending at Leeds. I think this would be better value for money than enlarging an existing station as improved connectivity would increase and encourage growth..
Just think of Skipton passengers travelling to Manchester who currently have to travel 25 miles southeast to Leeds when Manchester is actually southwest of Skipton. Even worse for passengers along the Settle-Carlisle who live west of Manchester yet have to travel via Leeds also. They lost the ability to change at Hellifield for East Lancs and Manchester in 1962 yet the line is still extant with minimal freight traffic to Clitheroe but devoid of passengers, for the sake of extending the Clitheroe-Manchester services a few miles. An experimental diesel service from Skipton to Manchester reversing at Hellifield should have been introduced for 12 months as a condition of bidding for the recent Northern franchise bid. Why are those with responsibility so dim and visionless?
Ideally, Aire Valley electrification should be extended 10 miles to Long Preston and Hellifield (minimal overbridges) or even 15 miles to Settle considering how fast these settlements are expanding, then Manchester-Clitheroes need only extend to Hellifield.

 

[158756]

Just think of Skipton passengers travelling to Manchester who currently have to travel 25 miles southeast to Leeds when Manchester is actually southwest of Skipton. Even worse for passengers along the Settle-Carlisle who live west of Manchester yet have to travel via Leeds also. They lost the ability to change at Hellifield for East Lancs and Manchester in 1962 yet the line is still extant with minimal freight traffic to Clitheroe but devoid of passengers, for the sake of extending the Clitheroe-Manchester services a few miles. An experimental diesel service from Skipton to Manchester reversing at Hellifield should have been introduced for 12 months as a condition of bidding for the recent Northern franchise bid. Why are those with responsibility so dim and visionless?
.

Demand for travel from Skipton to Manchester is a tiny fraction of that to Leeds, and Skipton to Manchester via Clitheroe would take around 2 hours, slower than changing at Leeds, and would be hopelessly slow for journeys to Blackburn and Clitheroe. For the costs involved - two units, staff, etc, and minimal income as the line would likely still be devoid of passengers even if it had trains, it's unlikely to be a high priority any time soon. You can have all the vision in the world, but someone has to pay for it.

 

[Bayum]

Is there actually any realistic prospect of any part of the Cross Gates - Wetherby line being reinstated? I'm aware that through Collingham/Bardsey it would have to be re-routed...

There is pretty much no clear routing through from Thorner/Scarcroft... There's lots of expansive countryside and housing around the area on both the East and West of the A58. I wouldn't know where the railway would be able to get through Collingham, my own village, unless it's built way out, or the station comes to rest somewhere outside of Wetherby. I'm not even sure there's space in/around Wetherby either, if i'm honest.

 

[xotGD]

Demand for travel from Skipton to Manchester is a tiny fraction of that to Leeds, and Skipton to Manchester via Clitheroe would take around 2 hours, slower than changing at Leeds, and would be hopelessly slow for journeys to Blackburn and Clitheroe. For the costs involved - two units, staff, etc, and minimal income as the line would likely still be devoid of passengers even if it had trains, it's unlikely to be a high priority any time soon. You can have all the vision in the world, but someone has to pay for it.

I am that tiny fraction! Not as a daily commute but fairly regularly. When the Calder Valley service to Oxford Road starts running I'll try connecting via Bradford, but I'm not convinced that it will be any quicker than Leeds. Plus I'll probably get soaked crossing Bradford. At least the yellow pen will get an outing.

However, once the 68s are running then via Leeds has advantages.

 

[deltic08]

There is pretty much no clear routing through from Thorner/Scarcroft... There's lots of expansive countryside and housing around the area on both the East and West of the A58. I wouldn't know where the railway would be able to get through Collingham, my own village, unless it's built way out, or the station comes to rest somewhere outside of Wetherby. I'm not even sure there's space in/around Wetherby either, if i'm honest.

A 90mph route has been identified Cross Gates-Bardsey avoiding the original route through Thorner and then a curving 80mph route onwards to Wetherby New avoiding Collingham Bridge station with some tunnelling, but some house demolition will be necessary. Only Cross Gates-A64 is priority currently to service a 7,000 housing development in East Leeds and not allow the trackbed to be obliterated here. If houses are built across this route, then blame is entirely with certain dim Leeds City Councillors and sitting MPs who have repeatedly been lobbied for 15 years to reinstate trackbed protection that was removed in 2002.

 

[deltic08]

Yeah, why not electrify the line up to LBA and use a 333 on a shuttle service between it Leeds City Centre!

That seems to be everybody's preferred option except Leeds City Council, West Yorks Combined Authority and Harrogate Chamber of Trade want to build a £25m station in a deep cutting just outside a long tunnel with bus transfer from there to the airport 300 hundred feet above.
The junction and branch stub were installed in 2012 as a turnback facility at Horsforth as part of Leeds-Harrogate resignalling.