New stations for Leeds

[edwin_m]

Düsseldorf airport has a 2.5 km monorail connecting it to its car parks and Düsseldorf Flughafen station, which is used by fast trains to the north. Would this be a possible solution for airports like Luton and Yeadon?

If something like this was used, it would be more likely to be a rubber-tyred automated shuttle than a true monorail. More able to cope with gradients than steel-wheel options are.

 

[takno]

*I am aware that Edinburgh brought back trams, but it is not a world class system as compared with other towns and cities in the UK and mainland Europe. It was dreadfully planned and designed, various huge cost overruns, and as it was Jack McConnell who signed off the project when he was First Minister of the Scottish Parliament, he was an arch-Blairite who totally embraced the New Labour project, of which they were not new, and were most certainly not Labour.

Okay, a few points:
- Edinburgh trams are an excellent quality system, far better than Manchester's. The network wasn't as large on opening because they didn't have existing rail infrastructure to convert, and because there were huge cost overruns in the building process. That hardly means the system that is there is not world-class, or that 20 years after its initial opening it can't be a substantial network.
- There wasn't a lot wrong with the planning or conception. Poor contract management was the primary reason for the budget overrun.
- The project was not signed off by Jack McConnell, the first SNP minority administration handed over the cash when it was out-voted on scrapping the plan. It was also the SNP who failed to supervise the spending of the cash. In any case the politics of the people involved are utterly irrelevant to whether or not Edinburgh has a high quality, well-used tram system. It does.

What on earth any of this has to do with Leeds, a city which has spent 20 years putting together proposals for tram systems and has persistently failed to get any of them through governments of all colours, escapes me entirely.

 

[adrock1976]

Okay, a few points:
- Edinburgh trams are an excellent quality system, far better than Manchester's. The network wasn't as large on opening because they didn't have existing rail infrastructure to convert, and because there were huge cost overruns in the building process. That hardly means the system that is there is not world-class, or that 20 years after its initial opening it can't be a substantial network.
- There wasn't a lot wrong with the planning or conception. Poor contract management was the primary reason for the budget overrun.
- The project was not signed off by Jack McConnell, the first SNP minority administration handed over the cash when it was out-voted on scrapping the plan. It was also the SNP who failed to supervise the spending of the cash. In any case the politics of the people involved are utterly irrelevant to whether or not Edinburgh has a high quality, well-used tram system. It does.

What on earth any of this has to do with Leeds, a city which has spent 20 years putting together proposals for tram systems and has persistently failed to get any of them through governments of all colours, escapes me entirely.

Did you not read the asterisked paragraph in context with the main body of the message above?

For your information and to mention again, it was in the context of whether Leeds could bring back trams after Manchester, Sheffield, etc. It does seem to be a regular habit of yours in quoting a selected part of a post rather than the whole lot and twisting it around regarding your final paragraph.

 

[takno]

Did you not read the asterisked paragraph in context with the main body of the message above?

For your information and to mention again, it was in the context of whether Leeds could bring back trams after Manchester, Sheffield, etc. It does seem to be a regular habit of yours in quoting a selected part of a post rather than the whole lot and twisting it around regarding your final paragraph.

Yes, I did read the whole post, the remainder of which was perfectly reasonable. I didn't have much to say about the rest of it, since I don't know the answer to the first question. Personally I'd quite like a tram system in Leeds, but it's not like they haven't been trying, unsuccessfully to get one.

I only quoted the last paragraph because while the remainder of the post was pefectly reasonable, the last paragraph was an inaccurate, irrelevant and unnecessary attack on Edinburgh trams, which you would have been better off not adding.

 

[DarloRich]

Did you not read the asterisked paragraph in context with the main body of the message above?

For your information and to mention again, it was in the context of whether Leeds could bring back trams after Manchester, Sheffield, etc. It does seem to be a regular habit of yours in quoting a selected part of a post rather than the whole lot and twisting it around regarding your final paragraph.

the cack handed contract management of the Edinburgh trams scheme has little or no impact on suggested light rail schemes in Leeds. They have tried, and failed, for at least 20 years to obtain support and funding for such a network.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The idea of a station at White Rose Centre (especially if it is on the Huddersfield line as I suspect) is a classic example of the industry's right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing...
Firstly, a station there will be rather close to both Morley and Cottingley. If a station had been built in the late 90s when the centre opened, I could have seen Cottingley closing despite being only a few years old at that point, however there has been massive house building in the area immediately around Cottingley station and I can't see it being closed now. If anything, the awkwardly-sited Morley (Low) would be more under threat.

Secondly, alternate services currently skip Cottingley to allow the 5 fast paths per hour, and I've registered my concerns about the changes before so I won't go into that. Adding an extra station to an already congested route seems quite foolish though.

Thirdly, the WRC is, as a destination, not that good. I can't imagine many deciding to shun Leeds city centre for the White Rose Centre if their journey is by public transport. It may even, in time, become the UK's first "ghost mall".

If a station was to be provided on the Wakefield line however, I could see that being a success. That stretch of route has a little bit of spare capacity, and the new station would plug what is by local standards quite a distance between adjacent stations. Marketing it as the White Rose Centre station though might not be the best idea, as even with a raised, covered walkway it'd take the best part of 5 minutes to cross from the station to the shopping centre. "Beeston West for WRC" would be better if the station is provided there.

 

[Iskra]

The idea of a station at White Rose Centre (especially if it is on the Huddersfield line as I suspect) is a classic example of the industry's right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing...
Firstly, a station there will be rather close to both Morley and Cottingley. If a station had been built in the late 90s when the centre opened, I could have seen Cottingley closing despite being only a few years old at that point, however there has been massive house building in the area immediately around Cottingley station and I can't see it being closed now. If anything, the awkwardly-sited Morley (Low) would be more under threat.

Secondly, alternate services currently skip Cottingley to allow the 5 fast paths per hour, and I've registered my concerns about the changes before so I won't go into that. Adding an extra station to an already congested route seems quite foolish though.

Thirdly, the WRC is, as a destination, not that good. I can't imagine many deciding to shun Leeds city centre for the White Rose Centre if their journey is by public transport. It may even, in time, become the UK's first "ghost mall".

If a station was to be provided on the Wakefield line however, I could see that being a success. That stretch of route has a little bit of spare capacity, and the new station would plug what is by local standards quite a distance between adjacent stations. Marketing it as the White Rose Centre station though might not be the best idea, as even with a raised, covered walkway it'd take the best part of 5 minutes to cross from the station to the shopping centre. "Beeston West for WRC" would be better if the station is provided there.

Agreed entirely, putting it on the Huddersfield line would be madness.

If the station was on the Wakefield line, I think if you'd have to install a travelator (Sp?). If you did so, that would make the travel time similar to walking from Meadowhall station to the shopping centre

 

[Spartacus]

I don't think it'll become a ghost mall, especially if congestion charging is introduced in Leeds, although I wouldn't regard is as competing with Leeds in it's own right at the moment. Currently it seems to work as a town centre, bringing people in from local centres such as Dewsbury and Huddersfield by car. I know people from the West of Huddersfield who go to the White Rose rather than Huddersfield simply because it's easier and quicker to get to, despite the big difference in distance.

Whatever happens though, I can't see very many people, already on a train to Leeds, choosing to get off 5 minutes before Leeds at the White Rose, never mind travel through Leeds or chose a slow local train to White Rose when they would be in Leeds sooner on an express.

 

[Grumpy]

Thirdly, the WRC is, as a destination, not that good. I can't imagine many deciding to shun Leeds city centre for the White Rose Centre if their journey is by public transport.
.

I don't think the proposal is being justified solely on the basis of large numbers of shoppers . There is a lot of employment in nearby office parks and travel to work by train may be attractive given the severe congestion on nearby roads, especially in the peaks. The location also offers good potential for bus/rail interchange given the existing bus links to the WRC from south and west Leeds and beyond . It also offers opportunity for park and ride-either for journeys into Leeds or to the west Thus for someone travelling from west Leeds to Manchester, driving to WRC to catch a train should be more attractive than driving into central Leeds to catch the train (all subject to the service being offered).

 

[Grumpy]

If a station was to be provided on the Wakefield line however, I could see that being a success. That stretch of route has a little bit of spare capacity.

In the 2014 West Yorkshire Combined Authority report on potential new stations for west and north Yorkshire this did not seem to be the case. Thus in considering sites at Ardsley the difficulty of finding capacity was emphasised and it was suggested that anything more than one train/hour could not be considered. Since that time the new Northern franchise has proposed additional trains on the route (Knottingley via Westgate and Leeds-Nottingham diverted via Westgate) which would seem to make fitting in stops at a new station even more difficult.

 

[tbtc]

Okay, a few points:
- Edinburgh trams are an excellent quality system, far better than Manchester's. The network wasn't as large on opening because they didn't have existing rail infrastructure to convert, and because there were huge cost overruns in the building process. That hardly means the system that is there is not world-class, or that 20 years after its initial opening it can't be a substantial network.
- There wasn't a lot wrong with the planning or conception. Poor contract management was the primary reason for the budget overrun.
- The project was not signed off by Jack McConnell, the first SNP minority administration handed over the cash when it was out-voted on scrapping the plan. It was also the SNP who failed to supervise the spending of the cash. In any case the politics of the people involved are utterly irrelevant to whether or not Edinburgh has a high quality, well-used tram system. It does.

What on earth any of this has to do with Leeds, a city which has spent 20 years putting together proposals for tram systems and has persistently failed to get any of them through governments of all colours, escapes me entirely.

Many good points.

The operational success of both the Edinburgh Tram and the Cambridgeshire Busway too-often get ignored/ dismissed by rail enthusiasts who are obsessed with the construction problems.

Yes, they should have been better managed by the Council (in Edinburgh) and the cost-cutting-contractor (in Cambridgeshire) but that's water under the bridge now - plenty of heavy rail projects have been delayed and gone over-budget - we should focus on the fact that these were well designed schemes that work well now that they are up and running.

I don't think the proposal is being justified solely on the basis of large numbers of shoppers . There is a lot of employment in nearby office parks and travel to work by train may be attractive given the severe congestion on nearby roads, especially in the peaks. The location also offers good potential for bus/rail interchange given the existing bus links to the WRC from south and west Leeds and beyond . It also offers opportunity for park and ride-either for journeys into Leeds or to the west Thus for someone travelling from west Leeds to Manchester, driving to WRC to catch a train should be more attractive than driving into central Leeds to catch the train (all subject to the service being offered).

Good points too.

A number of people from Kirklees use Wakefield Westgate as a railhead for travelling to That London... there's a good chance that people from Greater Wakefield may use a White Rose station (with lots of parking) as a way of getting to Manchester etc - given the lack of Wakefield - Manchester service since FNW days)... there's a chance that people from some of the Kirklees towns that lack a train station may use it for getting into Leeds too.

You've got direct bus links to much of south and west Leeds, you've got some decent sized office developments etc - you've got limited scope for more services to stop at Morley - it's not just about shoppers. It needs more than just an hourly service though (but I don't know if there'll be room for many services to stop there on a busy main line).

BUT, it's not on the site of a station closed fifty years ago, so some people find it hard to support

 

[deltic08]

I could have missed that. Testing a shuttle on the existing road system is not going to be successful. We dont have time for a trial unfortunately because the funding allocation needs to be spent.



My understanding was that the plan was 4tph off the Harrogate line, not 6tph.

Whilst a Leeds to Horsforth service being extended would be a possible option, using your proposal means that Leeds Bradford Airport gets a drop in frequency to half hourly rather than every 15 minutes that a railway station on the Harrogate line could support and 20 minutes on the current bus link. I am concerned that a branch line terminating in a windswept car park is not going to do as well as an interchange on the Harrogate line.

But the new fast services to Harrogate will only stop at Horsforth not parkway as well so parkway will only have two trains an hour.

 

[deltic08]

Düsseldorf airport has a 2.5 km monorail connecting it to its car parks and Düsseldorf Flughafen station, which is used by fast trains to the north. Would this be a possible solution for airports like Luton and Yeadon?

Certainly not Yeadon. Not a busy airport and not on a mainline intercity route. Also parkway station would be hundreds of feet below airport.

 

[deltic08]

The idea of a station at White Rose Centre (especially if it is on the Huddersfield line as I suspect) is a classic example of the industry's right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing...
Firstly, a station there will be rather close to both Morley and Cottingley. If a station had been built in the late 90s when the centre opened, I could have seen Cottingley closing despite being only a few years old at that point, however there has been massive house building in the area immediately around Cottingley station and I can't see it being closed now. If anything, the awkwardly-sited Morley (Low) would be more under threat.

Secondly, alternate services currently skip Cottingley to allow the 5 fast paths per hour, and I've registered my concerns about the changes before so I won't go into that. Adding an extra station to an already congested route seems quite foolish though.

Thirdly, the WRC is, as a destination, not that good. I can't imagine many deciding to shun Leeds city centre for the White Rose Centre if their journey is by public transport. It may even, in time, become the UK's first "ghost mall".

If a station was to be provided on the Wakefield line however, I could see that being a success. That stretch of route has a little bit of spare capacity, and the new station would plug what is by local standards quite a distance between adjacent stations. Marketing it as the White Rose Centre station though might not be the best idea, as even with a raised, covered walkway it'd take the best part of 5 minutes to cross from the station to the shopping centre. "Beeston West for WRC" would be better if the station is provided there.

WRC station is as a parkway station for Leeds commuters rather than supporting out of town shopping.

 

[Bantamzen]

A number of people from Kirklees use Wakefield Westgate as a railhead for travelling to That London... there's a good chance that people from Greater Wakefield may use a White Rose station (with lots of parking) as a way of getting to Manchester etc - given the lack of Wakefield - Manchester service since FNW days)... there's a chance that people from some of the Kirklees towns that lack a train station may use it for getting into Leeds too.

I don't think you could strengthen a business case by citing use as a railhead between Wakefield and Manchester, as technically Wakefield passengers can use Huddersfield as the same and without using a car. The area already has more than enough peak congestion without even more commuters driving into the area, remembering that just a mile up the road is the new Elland Road Park & Ride.

You've got direct bus links to much of south and west Leeds, you've got some decent sized office developments etc - you've got limited scope for more services to stop at Morley - it's not just about shoppers. It needs more than just an hourly service though (but I don't know if there'll be room for many services to stop there on a busy main line).

Whilst there are businesses in the area, a causal observation of the privately hired buses that serve the business parks from Leeds city centre doesn't exactly back up any need to have a new station close by. And as for passengers traveling the the south west of the city, save for a few immediate areas, most areas are probably easier to access by traveling to Dewsbury or Wakefield and interchanging there.

BUT, it's not on the site of a station closed fifty years ago, so some people find it hard to support

But a potential location is on a curve on as you say a very busy line. The cost to make an effective call that doesn't disrupt the flow of fast/semi/stoppers, and build a link to the shopping / business centres nowhere near adds up to the potential demand IMHO. The area is already well served by buses and the PR and a new station at WRC just isn't as important a project as it it is mooted.

 

[Grumpy]

At 1300 today the BBC announced they were expecting the 'green light' on the below projects, but then never bothered to comment any further. Anyone heard if there has been progress? I've checked the WYMetro and Leeds City Council websites and there is nothing mentioned.

Today's Yorkshire Post suggests this is to be discussed at a meeting of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority next week

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/council-leaders-to-progress-station-proposals-1-8610323

"PLANS for new railway stations serving Leeds-Bradford Airport and Elland are set to take a significant set step forward next week. Council leaders in West Yorkshire are set to agree to spend £15m developing a package of transport and other infrastructure improvements including the two stations. An upgrade to Bradford Forster Square station, increased parking facilities at four other stations and a network of charging points to be used by taxies are among the proposals. Measures to improve flood resilience in West Yorkshire and make homes more energy efficient are also set to be progressed. The West Yorkshire Combined Authority, which brings council leaders together to work on issues, is expected to agree to progress work on the projects at its annual meeting next week.Taken together, the package of measures could eventually cost more than £200m paid for by the authority’s own transport fund and money from the Department for Transport.Barry Collins, Calderdale council’s cabinet member for regeneration and economic development, said: “This is great news for Elland, in the town’s 700th anniversary year. “It’s also a massive step forward in the council’s rail development plans. We know how much local people need a train station, and delivering it is one of our top priorities. “The proposed scheme takes advantage of funding that had previously been identified to improve line speeds along the Calder Valley route. “These are now being delivered as part of a separate programme by Network Rail, freeing up £20 million from the West Yorkshire Plus Transport Fund for the Elland project. “Station construction is only one element of the plan. It also includes a bus-rail interchange; a dedicated car park, enabling a park and ride service, a new footbridge over the River Calder and improved road, cycle and pedestrian links between the station, the town centre and neighbouring areas.”The proposed station for Leeds-Bradford Airport would be built on the existing railway line between Leeds and Harrogate. The ‘parkway’ station would act as a park-and-ride scheme for commuters and connect to the airport via bus services.Critics of the proposal have argued a direct rail line should be built to the airport.If it goes ahead, the station, which could cost up to £25m to build, would be served by trains stopping at least every half hour.The West Yorkshire Combined Authority will hold its annual meeting on Thursday."

 

[Grumpy]

I don't think you could strengthen a business case by citing use as a railhead between Wakefield and Manchester, as technically Wakefield passengers can use Huddersfield as the same and without using a car. .

Why not? Catching a direct TPE service at WRC is probably much more appealing than driving into Huddersfield, or even down to Kirkgate,certainly if you live on the north side. And of course the WRC is only a couple of dual carriageway miles from the M62 giving quick and easy access from the likes of Normanton

 

[thejuggler]

At 1300 today the BBC announced they were expecting the 'green light' on the below projects, but then never bothered to comment any further. Anyone heard if there has been progress? I've checked the WYMetro and Leeds City Council websites and there is nothing mentioned.



From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-leeds-40338260

More detail from previous BBC article:



Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38206075

You are looking in the wrong place - West Yorkshire Combined Authority is lead organisation for all West Yorkshire Transport Investment.

From the front page go to the meetings link and you can look at the papers for the Investment Committee and AGM where these schemes are recommended for approval.

 

[snowball]

You are looking in the wrong place - West Yorkshire Combined Authority is lead organisation for all West Yorkshire Transport Investment.

When I see references to the WYCA (or to WMCA in the West Midlands) I tend to read them as YWCA and YMCA.

 

[lejog]

Indeed, I think people are being wildly optimistic if they expect concrete news at the moment. There was a West Yorkshire and York Investment Committee on Friday 16th June at which AFAIK budget approval was sought on continuing design work for some of the planned future developments in the Authority area - relevant to rail are the 3 new Leeds stations (although at a quick glance only Leeds-Bradford seems to be mentioned), Elland station, Bradford Forster Sq Gateway and new car parks. I expect they were passed, but the approval dates for building are still years away.

They will be getting a (probably brief) discussion at the WYCA AGM on 29th June (Item 14), this meeting will apparently be streamed if you are keen.

 

[Bantamzen]

Why not? Catching a direct TPE service at WRC is probably much more appealing than driving into Huddersfield, or even down to Kirkgate,certainly if you live on the north side. And of course the WRC is only a couple of dual carriageway miles from the M62 giving quick and easy access from the likes of Normanton

Even if it got built, the only services to call there would be the skip-stoppers, so by the time you got to WRC through traffic, waited for up to an hour for a service you could just as easily have got from Wakefield to Huddersfield and onto a fast through to Manchester.

WRC doesn't lend itself as either a good Parkway position or a Wakefield - Manchester railhead, partly because of the planned mixture of services along both the Huddersfield and Wakefield lines, but moreover because of it's proximity to a very busy, often heavily congested area of roads.

 

[thejuggler]

Of the proposed schemes Apperley Bridge car park extension is probably the easiest to deliver quickly.

 

[The Ham]

Not sure if this has come up before, but seems an interesting article:

http://www.citymetric.com/transport/here-s-how-fix-leeds-railway-network-3328

TRANSPORT LEEDS 2 hours ago
Here’s how to fix the Leeds railway network
By Chris Sharp

Leeds railway station. Image: Tejvan Pettinger/Flickr/creative commons.
Leeds has a problem with public transport. The obvious issue is absence of a tramway: years of lobbying for trams has failed and Westminster has recently blocked a trolley bus scheme.

But there is another pressing transport issue in Leeds: its railway station. Unlike most other large cities, Leeds only has the one station into which all its trains and passengers funnel every day. It’s desperate for more capacity to run more trains.

And the pressure on that station is going to get much worse when HS2 arrives. Passengers in Wakefield, Bradford, Halifax, Castleford or Pontefract currently don't need to go to Leeds to get to London: they either have a direct train or they change at Wakefield. When HS2 opens with its very fast link to London, though, changing at Leeds will become attractive, even at the expense of the convenience of a direct train.

The first option which should be investigated is a second station, something like Manchester's Oxford Road. A site east of the station between Leeds Minster and the bus station would go some way to relieve the pressure. For this to be effective, though, a significant number of trains would have to call there.

This brings me to the fundamental problem with Leeds railway station: the lines that serve it are lopsided. Six tracks enter the station's west side, yet only two tracks leave on the east: in effect, two thirds of the trains arriving at the station have to terminate there.

Terminating a train in Leeds isn't in itself a bad thing, but you can run a lot more trains when they only stop there for two minutes and then head off in the same direction they were already going – you know, like most trains, tubes, trams and buses do at most stations and stops. The key to sorting out Leeds is to rebalance the station to enable as many trains as possible run through the station rather than terminating.

Looking in detail at the trains that arrive in Leeds from the east, they come on a line from Hull, via Selby, and a line from York (trains form Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Scarborough). These two lines meet at Micklefield Junction and run from there to Leeds on a two track railway. Eight trains per hour (8tph) come from the east.

Arriving at Leeds from the west there are as follows.

The Harrogate Line – 2tph;
The Leeds North Western (Ilkley, Skipton, Bradford, Carlisle, Morecambe) – 7tph;
Calder Valley Line (Bradford, Manchester Victoria, Blackpool) – 4tph;
North Trans Pennine (Huddersfield, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool) – 7tph;
East Coast Mainline (London, Birmingham, Doncaster) – 5tph;
Castleford Line (Nottingham, Sheffield) – 4tph;

So: 29 trains per hour approach Leeds form the west. Only 8 continue eastwards. That leaves Leeds with 21 terminating trains an hour, off peak!

The simple solution is to run more of those westside trains through the station. But where would you run them to? There are already 6tph to York: I suppose you could add another, and the same for Hull, but that doesn't help much.

That second station in the city, would allow some services to terminate there or run through it to a new Park and Ride station adjacent to the M1. Doing that, you could get to 12tph on the east side, but you’d still have 29 on the west. So: to make a significant difference some of those trains that arrive at Leeds from the west need to approach from the east.

Obviously you can't move a city to a more convenient location, but it turns out that you don't have to. Look at a map, and you’ll find that many of the towns and cities whose trains arrive in Leeds from the west are actually east of the city. London is east of Leeds, by about 60 miles. In fact, Castleford, Wakefield, Nottingham and Sheffield are all east of Leeds – yet their trains past from east to west, south of Leeds to enter the station.

This is a big cause of the imbalance. Route these services in from the east and the problem is solved. Here’s how.

London First

Rerouting London trains is the easy bit – so easy, that until recently it used to happen, albeit only one train a day.

The East Coast Mainline from London to Scotland passes to the east, but London to Leeds trains leave the mainline at Doncaster and head west. Continue those trains north of Doncaster to Hambleton Junction and run them onto the line from Hull to Leeds and they would approach from the east.

Routing trains this way, rather than via Wakefield, and you get a bonus because it's a higher speed line: more capacity and its quicker. Win win.

Having reached Leeds from the east trains would continue on westward to Bradford or Harrogate. Such a route is desperately needed by Bradford, and way beyond Harrogate council’s wildest dreams. The key here is for the London trains to replace a current Leeds-Bradford or Leeds-Harrogate service, increasing the number of coaches without taking up track capacity.

If the two London trains per hour could switch from west to east, the imbalance would become 27tph-10tph.

The London trains cross to the east.

Progress.

New Classy Route

That was easy – Castleford is trickier, because it requires building new railway.

The Cass line runs east-west through South Leeds, before taking a handbrake turn into the station. Well, it should do: more accurately, the train takes a handbrake turn and then parks outside the station for five minutes waiting for platform and you miss your connection to York, for f-

Sorry, where was I? Oh, South Leeds. What is required is a couple of miles of new railway line in south east Leeds. A link between Stourton and Neville Hill through what is mainly post industrial wasteland would enable Castleford trains to approach Leeds from the east. The service could continue to terminate at Leeds or run on to Bradford Foster Square and terminate there. Once again, the result is a shorter and quicker route into Leeds, another win-win.

Along with the local trains that run via Castleford, regional trains from Nottingham and Sheffield enter Leeds on this line. They would also benefit from switching to this route and continuing on to Bradford Interchange.

Four trains would switch from west to east, making the score 23tph-14tph.

With a new East Leeds Link line in place, a route between York and Leeds via Castleford would be possible. The hourly Blackpool North to York service could be routed this way. Between York and Leeds and this is a stopping service, which eats up capacity between the Micklefield Junction and York. Route this Blackpool service via Castleford and you get another big win: a direct train each hour from Castleford to York would link up the cheap homes in Castleford and Sherburn to the growing economy of York and its overheated housing market.

Is that enough?

Rebalancing the lines in this way will provide Leeds with the capacity needed for the arrival of HS2. If further capacity was required, then it would be worth investigating the reopening of the Harrogate to Leeds line via Wetherby. This would join the Hull to Leeds line at Crossgates.

However, doubling the number of trains approaching Leeds from the east will mean that two track line reaches maximum capacity. Quadrupling the line from Neville Hill to Leeds will almost certainly be required.

Extending that four tracking all the way to Micklefield Junction would be a very sensible investment. This is actually easier than you would think, because a forward thinker in the first half of 19th century decided that a four track railway will be needed one day. He stipulated that all bridges over the railway between Leeds and Selby must give clearance for four tracks.

I propose that the new tracks are built on the north side of the current two. These should be built as the fast lines without platforms at the intermediate stations. In effect this would be the eastern leg of HS3, creating a true intercity route (125mph) between Leeds and York.

Oh yeah, it goes without saying, this route needs to be electrified through to York and Selby.

At some point the twin track from Leeds to Mickleflied (in blue) will need to be quadrupled.

Will it happen?

Rail investment in Yorkshire, the Humber and the North East has been non-existent for the last decade and a half – so I don't hold out much hope for any projects like the ones I've set out.

That said, electrification of the Leeds to York and Selby lines should be a top priority. It is the easy bit of the Transpennine Electrification Project and it will be put to use straightaway by TransPennine’s new bi-mode trains and Northern’s new electrics.

The last five years have seen significant improvements in the North West with electrification, capacity improvements and re-signalling. East of the Pennines all we have received are three small stations on the outskirts of Bradford and the addition of a new entrance at Leeds station.

It's time for huge investment around Leeds to make rail a viable option for the city region. What I’ve proposed here is only the start.

 

[47802]

So he is proposing to move the London trains via Hambleton leaving Wakefield reduced to 4 Grand Central trains per day from Kirkgate.

Ok Bradford and Harrogate are due to get a significantly increased service under IEP so maybe there is an argument for routing these trains that way well once you get past the minor issue of the lack of wires, but you would still need to maintain an hourly service via Wakefield I also think it will still be more convenient for many Wakefield area passengers to use EC services even after HS2. I'm also guessing that the majority of IEP Bradford/Harrogate Services will be portion worked splitting at Leeds so the opportunity for reducing time spent in Leeds platforms somewhat goes out of the window anyway.

I guess the link down to Stourton might have some merit, except there is no point really sending diesels to Foster Square, but I guess there could be an opportunity to send some of the trains on this route to Bradford Interchange or Harrogate in place of some existing services, although he is ignoring the fact that the current Nottingham service is planned to move to the Wakefield route. I think a park and ride station out towards Garforth with terminating platforms might have more merit but at the end of the day its all pie in the sky.

 

[Deerfold]

There is of course the problem that the London trains are much longer than the local trains and the stations they call at. Also, if you remove Wakefield from the London route, all the people who used to change there now have to go via Leeds.

 

[yorksrob]

I feel that removing all ECML London trains is a non-starter.

The town is already the InterCity railhead for a large chunk of West Yorkshire.

Diverting Cass trains to call from the East is more interesting, not least because there is already a freight line part of the way. I'm not sure the "imbalance" of trains from East and West is such an issue, given the number of Westward facing bay platforms there are.

 

[Bantamzen]

There is some merit in making use of the Hambleton curve (assuming it gets wired eventually) for at least the Bradford FS / Harrogate services when VTEC start to run them every 2 hours. I'm sure quite how VTEC will path these, as separate paths throughout or splitting / joining at Leeds, but ether way although Wakefield might lose some of it's London-bound services, it could also make a bit more space for more stoppers, especially in the peaks. But it would reduce conflicts on the western approach, and because dwell times could be reduced it would also free up a bit of through capacity.

I don't know quite how busy they are at the moment as I haven't commuted on the Wakefield line for years, but judging how many people shoehorn onto the 16:48 Leeds-Sheffield (usually next to the 16:56 Skipton that I sometimes catch), I imagine that the Doncasters are also as rammed if not more than they used to be. It was always a major annoyance when I lived in South Elmsall, the stoppers were basically shoehorned in-between the fasts and where often delayed & even cancelled when one or more of the fasts were delayed. I lost count how many hours of my life were lost on what was the 17:19 Leeds - Doncaster because the XC service just before it was running late.

The idea of having a Castleford – Neville Hill – Leeds link might be worth a shot too. P7 & P13 are sparsely used in Leeds, so any new service approaching from the east would have at least some capacity available in the bays. However you would still have to shoehorn them in-between the other existing eastern paths and ECS moves. Could get tricky on the eastern approach, especially at the peaks!

And on that subject I wonder if there still is merit, and again subject to electrification, to replace the York & Selby stoppers currently served by the Calder Valley services with through services from the Aire & Wharfe? Not only could you maybe increase capacity, but improve dwell & acceleration times to boot meaning some possible capacity increase there.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is some merit in making use of the Hambleton curve (assuming it gets wired eventually) for at least the Bradford FS / Harrogate services when VTEC start to run them every 2 hours. I'm sure quite how VTEC will path these, as separate paths throughout or splitting / joining at Leeds, ...

The track access stuff says they are all extensions of existing Leeds terminating services. Shouldn't be any pathing problems or need for any route changes between London and Leeds.

 

[Bantamzen]

The track access stuff says they are all extensions of existing Leeds terminating services. Shouldn't be any pathing problems or need for any route changes between London and Leeds.

Does it give any indication if both Harrogate & Bradford are the same service to Leeds & split, or will the pathing be a Bradford service one hour & a Harrogate the other?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does it give any indication if both Harrogate & Bradford are the same service to Leeds & split, or will the pathing be a Bradford service one hour & a Harrogate the other?

There's also Huddersfield extensions of London services to contend with (3tpd IIRC)...