New stations for Leeds

[yorksrob]

Church Fenton and Ulleskelf are also on the proposed route.

Ah yes - Church Fenton might also be worth a call.

 

[billio]

Ah yes - Church Fenton might also be worth a call.

Looking at services from York that pass through these stations, Ulleskelf: one train a day to Leeds, one to Hull and two to Sheffield (which connect for Leeds at Church Fenton). Not a very good service. I believe the platforms are on the wrong pair of lines.

Church Fenton has a slightly better service: 12 to Leeds, two to Sheffield and one to Hull.

Sherburn in Elmet: no trains to Leeds, two to Sheffield and strangely 7 trains to Hull via Selby. (For a Leeds service I expect most passengers would use South Milford.)

There is new housing in all 3 places, especially Sherburn. For Ulleskelf and Sherburn, a better service to Leeds and York would be the most useful development. It would be a little bizarre if the most frequent service was to Castleford and on to Huddersfield. If a stop was to be made between Castleford and York, Sherburn might be a better choice than Church Fenton.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Looking at services from York that pass through these stations, Ulleskelf: one train a day to Leeds, one to Hull and two to Sheffield (which connect for Leeds at Church Fenton). Not a very good service. I believe the platforms are on the wrong pair of lines.

Church Fenton has a slightly better service: 12 to Leeds, two to Sheffield and one to Hull.

Sherburn in Elmet: no trains to Leeds, two to Sheffield and strangely 7 trains to Hull via Selby. (For a Leeds service I expect most passengers would use South Milford.)

There is new housing in all 3 places, especially Sherburn. For Ulleskelf and Sherburn, a better service to Leeds and York would be the most useful development. It would be a little bizarre if the most frequent service was to Castleford and on to Huddersfield. If a stop was to be made between Castleford and York, Sherburn might be a better choice than Church Fenton.

With a bit of thought, convenient connections could be provided at Castleford/Normanton for Leeds. One issue at Castleford is the need to provide an accessible way of crossing over to the currently disused platform.

 

[yorksrob]

Looking at services from York that pass through these stations, Ulleskelf: one train a day to Leeds, one to Hull and two to Sheffield (which connect for Leeds at Church Fenton). Not a very good service. I believe the platforms are on the wrong pair of lines.

Church Fenton has a slightly better service: 12 to Leeds, two to Sheffield and one to Hull.

Sherburn in Elmet: no trains to Leeds, two to Sheffield and strangely 7 trains to Hull via Selby. (For a Leeds service I expect most passengers would use South Milford.)

There is new housing in all 3 places, especially Sherburn. For Ulleskelf and Sherburn, a better service to Leeds and York would be the most useful development. It would be a little bizarre if the most frequent service was to Castleford and on to Huddersfield. If a stop was to be made between Castleford and York, Sherburn might be a better choice than Church Fenton.

I'm inclined to think that Church Fenton should have an hourly service to Leeds anyway, however that's separate to the service from Castleford. Ulleskelf, I have little knowledge about, so I'm happy to defer to those with more knowledge.

 

[yorksrob]

With a bit of thought, convenient connections could be provided at Castleford/Normanton for Leeds. One issue at Castleford is the need to provide an accessible way of crossing over to the currently disused platform.

There is already an underpass at Castleford, albeit designed for non-railway users, although the entrances are at right angles to the platform, rather than alongside. It does appear to be step-free and could be refurbished.

 

[deltic08]

A complete waste of money. Yorkshire's rural areas (in particular north of Skipton and Harrogate) have a very low population density and aren't worth serving by rail. There is a good economic (but not political) case for closing at least 1 of the 2 surviving ex-Midland routes beyond Skipton, now that there is minimal freight traffic.

West Riding rail services should focus on Leeds, Yorkshire's premier city, as the primary destination, with connections for elsewhere via Leeds.

Sorry, but you are showing ignorance of the situation. Leeds station is a constrained site due to surrounding commercial property and adjacent River Aire and Leeds Liverpool Canal and cannot increase its footprint. You seem to forget that Leeds is not the only city in West Yorkshire. What about Wakefield and Bradford and large towns of Huddersfield and Halifax. All settlements in and out the Leeds City Region within one hour commuting time of the West Yorkshire 5 are expanding rapidly. That is as far out as Ripon, Knaresborough, Boroughbridge, the new towns at Dishforth, Flaxby, Hammerton and Tockwith along the A1 corridor and other parts of rural North Yorkshire to the north. Collectively 25,000 new houses in an area bounded by Ripon-Thirsk-York-Tadcaster-Wetherby-Knaresborough are planned by 2025 where employment will be almost entirely in West Yorkshire. This daily movement cannot be dealt with by road traffic alone along the A1 and M1 because these motorways and West Yorkshire towns are gridlocked in the peaks. New build/reinstated lines into this hinterland via Tadcaster or Wetherby or both must be considered.
A regular rail service from York to Manchester via Castleford, Wakefield and Huddersfield avoiding Leeds would be very useful and ease pressure on the Church Fenton-Leeds-Dewsbury-Ravensthorpe corridor. Surprisingly, not all the world wants to travel to Leeds.
Who thought when closure of the Settle-Carlisle was refused that so much coal traffic would use it 10 years later? Look at the closed Beeching routes in West Yorkshire that are now needed to ease road traffic congestion only 20 years later. We don't know what the future holds so suggesting route closures now is insane
Ripon population was 8,000 in 1967 when Beeching closed this line. Planned house building by 2025 will make Ripon 3 times the size. Wetherby expansion to 22,000 houses by 2025 will be 4 times increase since Beeching closed this station and line in 1964.

 

[deltic08]

I have an idea and it is expensive but the article we talked about went big and all in so I don't apologise for that.

Rather than knocking down chunks of Leeds to realise that we still don't have capacity at Leeds station, why not close the four railway station to Micklefield, open a light rail line to Micklefield and route that into the centre of Leeds to an alternate tram stop(s) in the city centre. This releases capacity by removing the stoppers.

The same could be done with the five towns network but use the existing lines for a Tram Train network and potentially divert approaching Leeds with the fast Nottingham run via Wakefield Westgate and some consideration for retaining the Barnsley service (run alongiside HS3 into Leeds New Lane???)

You are having a laugh aren't you? How much would a new light rail link cost all the way out to Micklefield from the centre of Leeds be compared to widening the current heavy rail route? Not far short of a £billion. What would be the travelling time stopping at every blade of grass? Too long. As for tram trains that will never happen here. Sheffield-Rotherham train trains are still not operating despite the go ahead years ago.

 

[bluenoxid]

You are having a laugh aren't you? How much would a new light rail link cost all the way out to Micklefield from the centre of Leeds be compared to widening the current heavy rail route? Not far short of a £billion. What would be the travelling time stopping at every blade of grass? Too long. As for tram trains that will never happen here. Sheffield-Rotherham train trains are still not operating despite the go ahead years ago.

Without a feasibility study, I wouldnt be able to prove either way. The heavy rail project will require work to widen the trackbed including major works entering the city centre. Leeds railway station will need major construction works to achieve the service patterns being looked at.

Journey times will be improved by a more frequent service. Say if the number of stops double, you have faster acceleration and shorter stops than the current heavy rail service.

The Tram Train project has been poorly implemented but it doesnt mean that the mode of transport is poor.

 

[deltic08]

Without a feasibility study, I wouldnt be able to prove either way. The heavy rail project will require work to widen the trackbed including major works entering the city centre. Leeds railway station will need major construction works to achieve the service patterns being looked at.

Journey times will be improved by a more frequent service. Say if the number of stops double, you have faster acceleration and shorter stops than the current heavy rail service.

The Tram Train project has been poorly implemented but it doesnt mean that the mode of transport is poor.

Widening of viaducts was done in Manchester for the Ordsall chord so can be done in Leeds. The trackbed is wide enough for quad tracking from the bottom of Marsh Lane cutting to east of Garforth. If it can be done on the WCML between Tamworth and Lichfield, it can be done Leeds-Micklefield as the extra capacity is needed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Widening of viaducts was done in Manchester for the Ordsall chord so can be done in Leeds. The trackbed is wide enough for quad tracking from the bottom of Marsh Lane cutting to east of Garforth. If it can be done on the WCML between Tamworth and Lichfield, it can be done Leeds-Micklefield as the extra capacity is needed.

I agree that 4-tracking east of Leeds station will be needed sooner rather than later. But as long as Leeds City Council/Metro waste money on things like the trolleybus that never was; getting into bed with FirstGroup over the pathetic Ftr debacle; and planning a White Rose Centre station that next to nobody will use* (and there isn't capacity for anyway), neither of those bodies will manage to deliver anything worthwhile.

*=even if I'm wrong, it'll only take business away from Leeds city centre, thus reducing the council's tax revenues. The White Rose Centre is never going to compete with one of the biggest retail destinations outside of London, it barely did when it first opened and Leeds was dying on its backside back then compared to today. The best thing to do would be to flatten the whole thing and landscape the site with tree planting. We'll need something to soak up all that carbon dioxide from all the diesel trains we'll still be running! :roll:

 

[bluenoxid]

Widening of viaducts was done in Manchester for the Ordsall chord so can be done in Leeds. The trackbed is wide enough for quad tracking from the bottom of Marsh Lane cutting to east of Garforth. If it can be done on the WCML between Tamworth and Lichfield, it can be done Leeds-Micklefield as the extra capacity is needed.

Everything is an engineering possibility. I won’t dispute that. However, it still doesn’t answer the questions of managing the buildings and roads that are currently in place where the railway line would run. It also doesn’t answer if the existing station footprint is capable of accommodating further increases in passenger throughput.

 

[edwin_m]

It also doesn’t answer if the existing station footprint is capable of accommodating further increases in passenger throughput.

Leeds gets yet another rebuild for HS2, which looks to involve decking over most of where the current trainshed is with a new concourse with access to existing platforms to the side and HS2 platforms at the end. That ought to create enough circulation space within the station but it will be interesting to see how they tackle the bottleneck of the northern side accesses.

 

[xotGD]

I agree that 4-tracking east of Leeds station will be needed sooner rather than later. But as long as Leeds City Council/Metro waste money on things like the trolleybus that never was; getting into bed with FirstGroup over the pathetic Ftr debacle; and planning a White Rose Centre station that next to nobody will use* (and there isn't capacity for anyway), neither of those bodies will manage to deliver anything worthwhile.

*=even if I'm wrong, it'll only take business away from Leeds city centre, thus reducing the council's tax revenues. The White Rose Centre is never going to compete with one of the biggest retail destinations outside of London, it barely did when it first opened and Leeds was dying on its backside back then compared to today. The best thing to do would be to flatten the whole thing and landscape the site with tree planting. We'll need something to soak up all that carbon dioxide from all the diesel trains we'll still be running! :roll:

White Rose station won't just serve the shopping centre. There is a big office park next door and I'm sure plenty of people working there will be very happy to be able to commute by rail.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

White Rose station won't just serve the shopping centre. There is a big office park next door and I'm sure plenty of people working there will be very happy to be able to commute by rail.

Barely any housing in the immediate area though. So will the station be served only in the peaks? If so it's a lot of money to spend and if not we're back to square 0 with capacity. It wouldn't matter what was going to be served by the station when there isn't room on the network for more trains or even for an extra stop on existing ones. Most local-ish housing is better-served by Cottingley* in any case, which worst-case scenario will be downgraded in favour of a station nobody (apart from WRC owners perhaps) wanted or asked for.

We're used to enthusiasts getting the crayons out and drawing lines everywhere, but here we have an elected body adding stations in just because it looks like one could go there and they've been given essentially a "credit note" by central government which has an expiry date in lieu of goods/services not delivered. You really couldn't make it up! :roll:

*=apart from the edge of Beeston on the other side of Dewsbury Road, which would be better served by a station on the Doncaster line anyway. I'm disappointed (but not surprised) that a station isn't being proposed there instead of WRC.

 

[bluenoxid]

WRC is also becoming a bus hub for south Leeds with bus services being changed to focus on the bus station there.

I’ve not seen anything official that says which line the WRC stop would go on.

I share the concerns about the proposed stops around Leeds. I await the feasibility studies.

 

[billio]

Everything is an engineering possibility. I won’t dispute that. However, it still doesn’t answer the questions of managing the buildings and roads that are currently in place where the railway line would run. It also doesn’t answer if the existing station footprint is capable of accommodating further increases in passenger throughput.

Looking at aerial photography I think there is only one building and a cemetery that would be affected by a third line from Leeds station to Marsh Lane. The nondescript buildings on the south side of York Street might be affected but they would be no great loss at all, some looking almost derelict.

Crown Street : https://goo.gl/maps/jX7JLpQgpUw
Businesses under viaduct, Kirkgate : https://goo.gl/maps/rSUdLUiKU6C2
York St to the east https://goo.gl/maps/dG227PqjC4M2
York St to the west : https://goo.gl/maps/k4jpvcfxkWH2
York St west end : https://goo.gl/maps/1H6ZRGASRfT2

Actually at the west end of York St there is probably enough room for 4 tracks and a second Leeds station close by the bus station.

 

[lejog]

I've been thinking about the blog posted in #263, considering the new services that are starting to run into Leeds in the next few years and made a few changes to the figures presented there (underlined).

The key to sorting out Leeds is to rebalance the station to enable as many trains as possible run through the station rather than terminating.

Looking in detail at the trains that arrive in Leeds from the east, they come on a line from Hull, via Selby, and a line from York (trains form Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Scarborough). These two lines meet at Micklefield Junction and run from there to Leeds on a two track railway. Eight trains per hour (8tph) come from the east.(Soon to be 9, but only 7 run through)

Arriving at Leeds from the west there are as follows.

The Harrogate Line – 2tph; +2tph = 4tph
The Leeds North Western (Ilkley, Skipton, Bradford, Carlisle, Morecambe) – 7tph; +.5tph (VTEC) = 7.5tph
Calder Valley Line (Bradford, Manchester Victoria, Blackpool) – 4tph; +1tph = 5tph
North Trans Pennine (Huddersfield, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool) – 7tph;
East Coast Mainline (London, Birmingham, Doncaster) – 5tph; +2.5tph (0.5 VTEC, 2 Northern) = 7.5tph
Castleford Line (Nottingham, Sheffield) – 4tph;

So: 29 (soon to be 35) trains per hour approach Leeds form the west. Only 8 (7) continue eastwards. That leaves Leeds with 21 (soon 28) terminating trains an hour, off peak!

The simple solution is to run more of those westside trains through the station. (It is, is it? )

No it appears that in fact the simple solution in the short term is to jam more trains in, with a 33% increase in terminators from the west!

I wonder what the plan is? There are only a few obvious possibilities for extra platforms that I can see e.g. running all through services through 15/16, building platform 0.

 

[Deerfold]

I've been thinking about the blog posted in #263, considering the new services that are starting to run into Leeds in the next few years and made a few changes to the figures presented there (underlined).



No it appears that in fact the simple solution in the short term is to jam more trains in, with a 33% increase in terminators from the west!

I wonder what the plan is? There are only a few obvious possibilities I can see e.g. running all through services through 15/16, building platform 0.

The 0.5tph VTEC from Bradford FS and 0.5tph VTEC which will be taking over some of those from Harrogate will be leaving Leeds to the East so there's no extra 0.5tph VTEC on the Wakefield line.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

WRC is also becoming a bus hub for south Leeds with bus services being changed to focus on the bus station there.

I’ve not seen anything official that says which line the WRC stop would go on.

I share the concerns about the proposed stops around Leeds. I await the feasibility studies.

There's no point in using bus services as a justification for rail investment, because the situation is flexible and there's no guarantee that the services that exist at the planning stage will still exist 3-5 years later when your station is completed. Last time I was at WRC I used the bus, and the bus station looked neglected and hostile. Tacked onto the end of the building with access only through Debenhams or by walking around the outside of the building, it's a poor excuse for true integration and looks like something that only exists to fulfil a planning obligation.

 

[takno]

I wonder what the plan is? There are only a few obvious possibilities I can see e.g. running all through services through 15/16, building platform 0.

In keeping with Leeds tradition that should clearly be platform W

 

[yorksrob]

In keeping with Leeds tradition that should clearly be platform W

Here here.

 

[bluenoxid]

There's no point in using bus services as a justification for rail investment, because the situation is flexible and there's no guarantee that the services that exist at the planning stage will still exist 3-5 years later when your station is completed. Last time I was at WRC I used the bus, and the bus station looked neglected and hostile. Tacked onto the end of the building with access only through Debenhams or by walking around the outside of the building, it's a poor excuse for true integration and looks like something that only exists to fulfil a planning obligation.

You can argue the same about the railway. In a five year planning period, those train services available to stop can disappear either due to changes in routes or pathing.

The bus station at WRC is dire but it’s becoming a hub regardless because so much is focused on this site and the office park next door.

 

[lejog]

The 0.5tph VTEC from Bradford FS and 0.5tph VTEC which will be taking over some of those from Harrogate will be leaving Leeds to the East so there's no extra 0.5tph VTEC on the Wakefield line.

Is that definitely true? Posts around #270 implied some doubt about this. Anyway 0.5tph hardly makes a significant difference to the totals.

Personally, I doubt very much if any changes will happen at Leeds until NPR is built.

PS. Details of the East of Leeds NPR "touchpoint" with HS2 has to be finalised by early 2018, to allow it to be included in the HS2 enabling bill passing through parliament. I guess we should find out then what the options from Leeds to Garforth are, assuming the HS2 route from Garforth towards York will be used.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You can argue the same about the railway. In a five year planning period, those train services available to stop can disappear either due to changes in routes or pathing.

The bus station at WRC is dire but it’s becoming a hub regardless because so much is focused on this site and the office park next door.

You can to an extent, but there's always consultation (or the impression thereof) with changes to rail services. If First or Arriva decided to pull out of using WRC bus station, they could do so pretty much overnight with very little legal redress.

 

[deltic08]

I agree that 4-tracking east of Leeds station will be needed sooner rather than later. But as long as Leeds City Council/Metro waste money on things like the trolleybus that never was; getting into bed with FirstGroup over the pathetic Ftr debacle; and planning a White Rose Centre station that next to nobody will use* (and there isn't capacity for anyway), neither of those bodies will manage to deliver anything worthwhile.

*=even if I'm wrong, it'll only take business away from Leeds city centre, thus reducing the council's tax revenues. The White Rose Centre is never going to compete with one of the biggest retail destinations outside of London, it barely did when it first opened and Leeds was dying on its backside back then compared to today. The best thing to do would be to flatten the whole thing and landscape the site with tree planting. We'll need something to soak up all that carbon dioxide from all the diesel trains we'll still be running! :roll:

White Rose Centre station is planned more as P&R and bus/rail interchange facility than shopping station.

 

[adrock1976]

In keeping with Leeds tradition that should clearly be platform W

Is/was the "W" a reference to Leeds Wellington station, or is it the direction the platform is facing?

White Rose Centre station is planned more as P&R and bus/rail interchange facility than shopping station.

Speaking of park and ride stations, was/is there still plans to have a park and ride station somewhere in the vicinity of Garforth or Micklefield?

 

[deltic08]

Everything is an engineering possibility. I won’t dispute that. However, it still doesn’t answer the questions of managing the buildings and roads that are currently in place where the railway line would run. It also doesn’t answer if the existing station footprint is capable of accommodating further increases in passenger throughput.

There is nothing of real importance on the south side of the viaduct.
This may sound like a contradiction but quadrifying will not necessarily increase throughput of trains and passengers at Leeds but will allow late running non stop York/Hull/Hambleton Junction trains to overtake stoppers between Micklefield and Leeds improving regulation through Leeds. Capacity improvements will be realised at Leeds by a reduction in dwell times of Bradford/Harrogate-KX trains routed this way.

 

[deltic08]

Speaking of park and ride stations, was/is there still plans to have a park and ride station somewhere in the vicinity of Garforth or Micklefield?

East Leeds Parkway station was planned at Micklefield years ago with a 15 minute interval service to coincide with electrification . It was planned here because that was the last station in West Yorkshire Metro area and adjacent to the A1 trunk road. There was to be a third bay platform off the main line and large car park on the site of an old colliery site on the south side. This was not thought out as a new junction and crossover was required on an existing junction-not cheap.
Thorpe Park is now the chosen site as it will be on the end of the East Leeds Orbital Road proposed to serve a new 10,000 house development. The M1 extension overbridge was built 4 tracks wide to allow two loops and two island platform station here for a local and Leeds-KX via Hambleton Junction service.
My own personal preference is to reinstate the Cross Gates-Wetherby line as far as the A64 on a slightly more westerly alignment to pass through the development and reopen Penda's Way and a parkway type station. Much cheaper than building a new ring road at £100m minimum and with the ability to transport 40,000 commuters in the peaks more efficiently than by car and bus. Leeds City Council has applied for planning to build this road without considering a public transport alternative which is against Government regulations on land use. It may even be turned down at the imminent planning hearing.

 

[Deerfold]

Is/was the "W" a reference to Leeds Wellington station, or is it the direction the platform is facing?

The current Platform 1 was Platform W when it was first built before all the platforms were renumbered.

 

[bradford758]

The current Platform 1 was Platform W when it was first built before all the platforms were renumbered.

I'd like to think that Platform W was a link to the past, as the former "goods" platform was originally part of Leeds Wellington Street.
But I think the original intention was for reopening the existing two "goods" platforms between W and (old) 1 as platforms X and Y.