New trains for Northern

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not sure why you think there are "pretences" of being an InterCity operator - does a service from Liverpool to Edinburgh, stopping in Manchester/ Leeds/ York/ Newcastle not link enough cities?

All I was talking about was adding in a stop at Cramlington, in addition to the one at Morpeth, to replace the 75mph DMU paths on the ECML - that way you ensure that the "new" TPE service (north of Newcastle) has an existing passenger base and make things a bit more reliable overall.

(obviously it wouldn't have happened because we need to keep running a service to the "one man and his dog" stations beyond Morpeth, which really should have been closed many years ago)



Nothing (from Leeds) terminates at Selby though, so there'd not be much benefit.

However, it does make me wonder why the people wanting to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on "diversionary resilience" (i.e. re-opening some failed line) never bring up BR's failure to wire the Selby "loop" off the ECML - one of those little omissions that will have saved about a fiver in the eighties (like the "headshunt" at Morpeth)

There's plenty of discussion on here about whether TPE is Intercity or Regional Express... the reality I guess is that such distinctions don't really exist in GB. They certainly seem to think of themselves as Intercity though, so giving them the "one man and his dog" stops doesn't really fit with that.
The real problem with the Chathill et al services is that they're single-ended and run with slow and outdated units- running as a more frequent service and extending to Berwick would make those lightly-used rural stops more useful as railhead for the wider surrounding areas. Either that or close them completely as you suggest: the current arrangement is neither use nor ornament.

 

[Kite159]

There's plenty of discussion on here about whether TPE is Intercity or Regional Express... the reality I guess is that such distinctions don't really exist in GB. They certainly seem to think of themselves as Intercity though, so giving them the "one man and his dog" stops doesn't really fit with that.
The real problem with the Chathill et al services is that they're single-ended and run with slow and outdated units- running as a more frequent service and extending to Berwick would make those lightly-used rural stops more useful as railhead for the wider surrounding areas. Either that or close them completely as you suggest: the current arrangement is neither use nor ornament.

Pegswood/Widdrington has untapped potential if there was a regular service (even 2 hourly), even Chathill gets regular users.

 

[Neptune]

Actually stopping the LIV - EDB service at Cramlington replacing the current Morpeth service makes sense but you’d have to stop at Manors as well. Yes it slows that service by 5/6 minutes but capacity is released by reducing services on the route. Also the services through Piccadilly stop at Oxford Road (similar to serving both Newcastle and Manors), Scarborough services stop at Garforth and Liverpool services stop at Lea Green or Newton-le-Willows too so there is form there for TPE to stop at places such as Cramlington along with Morpeth. The Chathill services could still operate as additionals run by Northern.

 

[HST43257]

Nothing (from Leeds) terminates at Selby though, so there'd not be much benefit.

There used to be. Until fairly recently (Dec 19 or May 20 I think) there was a Leeds to Selby service. This then was extended to be a Halifax to Hull service. These extensions were totally worthless and a terrible idea. It was just so there could be an even 4tph from Leeds to Halifax via BDI, but they could just extend the Bradford to Huddersfield back to Leeds. Cross-station movements are terrible for capacity management.

Also if 802s found their way onto the Hull route at any point then they could change in Selby station, which I reckon TPE drivers would prefer, based on the fact that they change at York rather than Colton normally at the moment.

Pegswood/Widdrington has untapped potential if there was a regular service (even 2 hourly), even Chathill gets regular users.

2tph Newcastle to Alnwick/Belford, 1tph at each (Widdrington and Pegswood) and would you look at that - a popular commuter rail service

 

[NoMorePacers]

There used to be. Until fairly recently (Dec 19 or May 20 I think) there was a Leeds to Selby service. This then was extended to be a Halifax to Hull service. These extensions were totally worthless and a terrible idea.

Extending it from Selby to Hull certainly wasn't.

 

[JRT]

Extending it from Selby to Hull certainly wasn't.

The Halifax to Leeds extension was to retain the Halifax to East Leeds local stations link after the Blackpool North to York route became semifast. There was always a plan to run an EXTRA Halifax to BRADFORD train but not sure why.

Not sure why the trains run through to Hull, there are no additional stops (above the ones served by TPE) beyond Selby, I think the plan was to run through to Bridlington.

Re: electrification, I do remember reading about a plan to extend the wires to Selby and no further? This did seem strange at the time.

 

[Neptune]

The Halifax to Leeds extension was to retain the Halifax to East Leeds local stations link after the Blackpool North to York route became semifast. There was always a plan to run an extra Halifax to BRADFORD train but not sure why.

Not sure why the trains run through to Hull, there are no additional stops beyond Selby, I think the plan was to run through to Bridlington.

Re: electrification, I do remember reading about a plan to extend the wires to Selby and no further? This did seem strange at the time.

They run to Hull to provide a 2nd train per hour from Leeds. It does call at Brough between Selby & Hull.

As you say it runs to Halifax to provide the connection between Halifax/Bradford/Pusey/Bramley and East Leeds which is very well used.

 

[HST43257]

The Halifax to Leeds extension was to retain the Halifax to East Leeds local stations link after the Blackpool North to York route became semifast. There was always a plan to run an EXTRA Halifax to BRADFORD train but not sure why.

Not sure why the trains run through to Hull, there are no additional stops (above the ones served by TPE) beyond Selby, I think the plan was to run through to Bridlington.

Re: electrification, I do remember reading about a plan to extend the wires to Selby and no further? This did seem strange at the time.

As you say it runs to Halifax to provide the connection between Halifax/Bradford/Pusey/Bramley and East Leeds which is very well used.

So why can’t the Huddersfield to Bradford service extend through to Leeds, like it used to? It’s better to keep suburban/slow services on each side of Leeds station on its own. It doesn’t meet this 5tph thing for Halifax but I don’t see that being the end of the world.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So why can’t the Huddersfield to Bradford service extend through to Leeds, like it used to? It’s better to keep suburban/slow services on each side of Leeds station on its own. It doesn’t meet this 5tph thing for Halifax but I don’t see that being the end of the world.

I can't recall if it was cut back to save a unit or to free up a path into Leeds, it may have been both. IIRC one of the issues was that it ran from Bradford to Leeds only a few minutes behind a Calder Valley service, so it often ran nearly empty.

One of the issues Leeds has always had is the imbalance of services on either side of City station. Running through makes better use of platform capacity but there are only a couple of destination options to the North/East. That's one of the reasons the two bays pointing towards Neville Hill and Garforth hardly ever get used.

 

[HST43257]

Re: electrification, I do remember reading about a plan to extend the wires to Selby and no further? This did seem strange at the time.

Sorry yes, after a double check I think Selby is the planned limit. It means station power changes for bimodes (which I believe are preferred) and the Leeds to Selby service can be a cleaner, simpler service. I highly doubt people from Leeds will use it (going through to Hull) if they’re having to call everywhere up to Selby.

I can't recall if it was cut back to save a unit or to free up a path into Leeds, it may have been both. IIRC one of the issues was that it ran from Bradford to Leeds only a few minutes behind a Calder Valley service, so it often ran nearly empty.

One of the issues Leeds has always had is the imbalance of services on either side of City station. Running through makes better use of platform capacity but there are only a couple of destination options to the North/East.

So why not re-time it so it runs in the path of the Halifax terminator? That’s majorly increasing connections for the local stops, as Bramley and Pudsey now have a reinstated Huddersfield service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So why not re-time it so it runs in the path of the Halifax terminator? That’s majorly increasing connections for the local stops, as Bramley and Pudsey now have a reinstated Huddersfield service.

If I'm remembering right, it ran in the path it did to fit into the timetable at the Huddersfield end (bay platform availability and the crossing move at Bradley junction). The path it used especially towards Huddersfield was never optimal, hence the long dwell at Halifax (reduced after Low Moor opened*) and having to wait on Bradley curve.
If/when the four-tracking at Huddersfield happens, it won't have to cross the fasts at Bradley junction so there should be a bit more flexibility. However platform capacity at Huddersfield itself for terminating will be much the same as it is now.

*=if Elland ever gets built, this should reduce further.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Sorry yes, after a double check I think Selby is the planned limit. It means station power changes for bimodes (which I believe are preferred) and the Leeds to Selby service can be a cleaner, simpler service. I highly doubt people from Leeds will use it (going through to Hull) if they’re having to call everywhere up to Selby.

You'd be surprised how far cheapo Northern advances go.

I've attached a picture of a service I caught from Leeds in February last year (it was on a Saturday and before you ask the crowds were roughly the same at each door of the train). Granted I haven't caught one since lockdown struck but given services like that are very much populated by leisure travellers then I'd imagine as soon as restrictions end then loadings will be back up to roughly similar levels.

 

[HST43257]

You'd be surprised how far cheapo Northern advances go.

I've attached a picture of a service I caught from Leeds in February last year (it was on a Saturday and before you ask the crowds were roughly the same at each door of the train). Granted I haven't caught one since lockdown struck but given services like that are very much populated by leisure travellers then I'd imagine as soon as restrictions end then loadings will be back up to roughly similar levels.

So not all of these people would be going to Selby or before?

 

[Philip]

I think another batch of 331s to replace the 319s and the 323s from WMT to replace the 333s is the most likely EMU wise.

DMU - the 27 175s to indirectly replace the 150s, with some shuffling about of stock diagrams.

 

[NoMorePacers]

So not all of these people would be going to Selby or before?

No - plenty stayed on to Brough and Hull.

 

[HST43257]

No - plenty stayed on to Brough and Hull.

Wow! Only thing is, I’m guessing TPE were still using 3 cars on that route (because of slow Nova production). If not, wow. Surely not a regular occurrence, no?

 

[Fokx]

Nothing (from Leeds) terminates at Selby though, so there'd not be much benefit.

The Sunday Halifax to Hull service terminates at Selby

 

[HST43257]

The Sunday Halifax to Hull service terminates at Selby

As, I believe, all Northern stoppers from Leeds should

 

[43096]

I think another batch of 331s to replace the 319s and the 323s from WMT to replace the 333s is the most likely EMU wise.

DMU - the 27 175s to indirectly replace the 150s, with some shuffling about of stock diagrams.

The 17 323s from West Mids are to replace the 319s.

 

[YorksLad12]

For me, one of the questions is what happens post-TRU, assuming we get the full electrification from Marsden/Huddersfield to the York area, and four-tracking from Huddersfield to Dewsbury.

TPE don't have a suitable electric set for the Huddersfield-Leeds stopper, so that would probably go back to Northern - so two new units needed there. If the whole route from Leeds to York/Selby is electrified there are options to extend the Huddersfield-Leeds, Doncaster-Leeds or Bradford FS-Leeds services to York or Selby. Any of those would also ease platform pressure at Leeds for terminating services (but move the pressure onto the through platforms, obvs). Either way, a few more electric sets required there.

The 333s will be over 25 years old by that point, and might well be considered for replacement, but the 331 production line might have been closed, and a new bi-mode combining the 195 & 331 in production...

 

[Nym]

There's also no shortage in EMUs coming off lease soon...

 

[NoMorePacers]

Wow! Only thing is, I’m guessing TPE were still using 3 cars on that route (because of slow Nova production). If not, wow. Surely not a regular occurrence, no?

TPE were still majorly 3 cars on Hull-Manchester at the time, correct (and their trains were still overcrowded for what it's worth). Although I did use TPE a few times in August where nearly all their units were running 6 cars and some services were loading very well (to the extent that they'd most likely be overcrowded as a 3 car). Personally, every other time I used the Hull-Halifax service it seemed fairly well-loaded as well.

 

[Halish Railway]

For me, one of the questions is what happens post-TRU, assuming we get the full electrification from Marsden/Huddersfield to the York area, and four-tracking from Huddersfield to Dewsbury.

TPE don't have a suitable electric set for the Huddersfield-Leeds stopper, so that would probably go back to Northern - so two new units needed there. If the whole route from Leeds to York/Selby is electrified there are options to extend the Huddersfield-Leeds, Doncaster-Leeds or Bradford FS-Leeds services to York or Selby. Any of those would also ease platform pressure at Leeds for terminating services (but move the pressure onto the through platforms, obvs). Either way, a few more electric sets required there.

TPE only got the Huddersfield line stopping services to stitch them together which went as well as everyone expected, casuing the service to be split, therefore meaning that there is no reason for TPE to operate that service. Once the TPRU is complete, I can see Leeds to Huddersfield becoming a half-hourly service operated with 4 car EMUs, as well as the Leeds to Wigan Wallgate service going non-stop from Leeds to Dewsbury so that all of the stopping services will be operated by quickly accelerating trains.

I don't really see the point of running a cross-Leeds service, especially one that goes through so many choke points as it'll be a performance liabillity - Northern did origionally plan to stop running cross-Newcastle services in the 2020 timetable change.

 

[geordieblue]

TPE don't have a suitable electric set for the Huddersfield-Leeds stopper, so that would probably go back to Northern - so two new units needed there.

More than two surely? For a thirty minute service (one of WYCA's aspirations IIRC) you'd need at least four, plus spares as cover.

 

[Halish Railway]

Lets just hope that network rail don't wire a station with a neutral section or not bother wiring a station at all to get around quagmires such as the foortbridge at Dewsbury or the terraces in extremely close proximity to the railway line immediatly south of Mossley. If Network Rail wire the entire route properly and providing that there are no guaging issues, procurring off-lease trains should be a doddle and hopefully Northern should be able to hagle for some low lease costs given the seemingly infinte supply of off-lease post privatisation, 25KV 4 car EMUs in the UK.

 

[HST43257]

More than two surely? For a thirty minute service (one of WYCA's aspirations IIRC) you'd need at least four, plus spares as cover.

Correct. 5 units would make sense

Lets just hope that network rail don't wire a station with a neutral section or not bother wiring a station at all to get around quagmires such as the foortbridge at Dewsbury or the terraces in extremely close proximity to the railway line immediatly south of Mossley. If Network Rail wire the entire route properly and providing that there are no guaging issues, procurring off-lease trains should be a doddle and hopefully Northern should be able to hagle for some low lease costs given the seemingly infinte supply of off-lease post privatisation, 25KV 4 car EMUs in the UK.

I‘d look at 350s and 2x 323s (which I propose for other Neville Hill based stuff)

 

[Halish Railway]

Correct. 5 units would make sense

You could probably get away with three diagrams given how long the units sit at the terminus/origin station - Currently its 21 minutes at Leeds and 27 minutes at Huddersfield.

Moreover, the end to end journey time will be cut by around 5 minutes as a result of faster acceleration and not having to wait in a loop for fast trains to overtake.

 

[YorksLad12]

More than two surely? For a thirty minute service (one of WYCA's aspirations IIRC) you'd need at least four, plus spares as cover.

You could probably get away with three diagrams given how long the units sit at the terminus/origin station - Currently its 21 minutes at Leeds and 27 minutes at Huddersfield.

Moreover, the end to end journey time will be cut by around 5 minutes as a result of faster acceleration and not having to wait in a loop for fast trains to overtake.

Isn't it just two at the moment? One per hour, 40-ish minute journey time?

In the future it might be different, of course. But if I've mis-counted... my bad.

 

[HST43257]

Isn't it just two at the moment? One per hour, 40-ish minute journey time?

In the future it might be different, of course. But if I've mis-counted... my bad.

You aren’t wrong, it Is 2 diagrams. However it was being pointed out that the service will eventually double plus a spare should be factored in.

 

[geordieblue]

Isn't it just two at the moment? One per hour, 40-ish minute journey time?

In the future it might be different, of course. But if I've mis-counted... my bad.

No, you're right in terms of how it is currently, but I think the idea would be to double the stopper (which would then speed up long-distance journeys with trains not needing to stop at Morley, Batley etc.).