New trains for Southeastern?

[Mikey C]

I'm presuming the 376s are the last mainline trains built without air conditioning?

What's less excusable is the lack of air con on the 365s, as these run on longer distance routes. The related 166s have air conditioning, so it's not as if it would have been much work to design and fit.

 

[swt_passenger]

376s can only be used on services upto an hour as they have no toilet but as you know Gravesend is over an hour but they got special permission to run to it. Saying that they have run down to Gillingham on the sly before lol
.

Can you quote the chapter and verse for this enduring myth about a one hour max journey time for toilet less trains?

It keeps getting quoted but no one has ever found such a rule.

 

[Class377/5]

Can you quote the chapter and verse for this enduring myth about a one hour max journey time for toilet less trains?

It keeps getting quoted but no one has ever found such a rule.

I don't believe its a rule but guideline spoke about when the 376 were first announced and people we up in arms about toilet usage. I think one of the leaflets about them being introduced this 'rule'.

 

[jon0844]

What's less excusable is the lack of air con on the 365s, as these run on longer distance routes. The related 166s have air conditioning, so it's not as if it would have been much work to design and fit.

I hope that one day this might be fitted with a major overhaul, especially given they're staying for the foreseeable future on quite long distance operations.

The driver gets it, so why not us? They don't even leave the cab door open to let the air through the train.

(BTW, don't bother to reply saying how stupid the above statement is!)

 

[Eagle]

Can you quote the chapter and verse for this enduring myth about a one hour max journey time for toilet less trains?

It keeps getting quoted but no one has ever found such a rule.

And there are quite a lot of exceptions to it as well, such as Portsmouth to Brighton on a 313.

 

[cj_1985]

I hope that one day this might be fitted with a major overhaul, especially given they're staying for the foreseeable future on quite long distance operations.

The driver gets it, so why not us? They don't even leave the cab door open to let the air through the train.

(BTW, don't bother to reply saying how stupid the above statement is!)

ok, I am, and im not replying to your above statement....

what is so mentally wrong with modern society that they can not stand being on a train, bus, coach, car or van without having god d*mn air con... I mean seriously, how often is it fully required... I mean seriously, using the class 365s as an example...

how many hours each year would Air Con actually be NEEDED for.

I mean for god sake, the longest journey on a 365 is what.. somewhere around about 1.5 hours (at a guess), from memory I seem to recall the 365s having opening windows (Sections)

I mean if your house gets hot in the summer... you open the windows
if your car gets warm... guess what.. you open the windows


if you really must complain about something, how about focusing on something like toilet facilities on the trains, at the served stations etc etc

 

[Mikey C]

Why not have opening windows on Eurostar trains then, seeing that it's 2 and a bit hours to Paris now?
The open windows
a) blow random gales around the carriage, usually on the people who don't want the breeze
b) make a racket, especially in tunnels
c) are bad aerodynamically. Indeed isn't there a case that having air con uses less fuel than opening the windows?

 

[cj_1985]

Why not have opening windows on Eurostar trains then, seeing that it's 2 and a bit hours to Paris now?
The open windows
a) blow random gales around the carriage, usually on the people who don't want the breeze
b) make a racket, especially in tunnels
c) are bad aerodynamically. Indeed isn't there a case that having air con uses less fuel than opening the windows?

I don't care how long the journey is... fact is that you will rarely NEED Air con on a train in the UK

its like the argument about snow ploughs/grit spreaders... how many do you actually NEED to manage over the brief period that there is work for them.

with trains, its similar... how much do you think it would cost to manufacture a compatible air con unit, modify the carriages to fit the new A/C module and then the ongoing maintenance cost for what... a few days/weeks out of a full year.

 

[jon0844]

I have air con at home and in my car for what it's worth. Open windows are useless in traffic/stationary situations, allows in pollution, is noisy and affects fuel economy (okay not so relevant at home).

And air conditioning works all year around. It isn't just for cooling but also controlling humidity, making an environment much more comfortable.

Of course you don't need to use it all the time and at home it might only be on for 20-30 days a year, but boy do you appreciate it when you need it! Imagine if large shops didn't condition their air!

As for the cost of retrofitting air conditioning on a train, I guess it depends on whether it was an option when first built and just not specified and fitted. If the interior design is similar to a variant that had aircon, it's probably quite easy and possibly not too expensive.

 

[WatcherZero]

Why not have opening windows on Eurostar trains then, seeing that it's 2 and a bit hours to Paris now?
The open windows
a) blow random gales around the carriage, usually on the people who don't want the breeze
b) make a racket, especially in tunnels
c) are bad aerodynamically. Indeed isn't there a case that having air con uses less fuel than opening the windows?

I know for a fast moving car having the window open destroys the fuel efficency, though the air conditioning also robs performance using extra energy and reducing the power available for motion (ive heard a 10% loss in fuel efficency quoted) on an electric train thats not really an issue.

 

[jon0844]

Even my first car with aircon (1997, but built in 1994) cut out the aircon if you needed to use full engine power. Of course it used fuel, but it was worth it for improved comfort. Sitting in traffic on one of our hot days of the year was no trouble at all.

Now just about everyone has aircon, I bet people forget how uncomfortable it was. Boarding a roasting 365 at King's Cross that has just come from Hornsey depot with the windows shut after being washed serves as a good reminder!

 

[Mikey C]

I presume the faster a train goes, the more significant the loss of energy caused by open windows becomes, as opposed to the loss of energy caused by operating air conditioning. And with fewer stops on express routes, the loss of cool air through the passenger doors becomes less significant.

The 166s already had air conditioning, and they operate similar routes to the 365s, so it was a strange omission, as the 365s were geared for 100mph, so weren't going to be used for slow commuter routes.

 

[jon0844]

The noise when the windows are open on a 365 is horrible. Okay, so some enthusiasts might prefer it, but the worst bit is that the person who opens the window above them is really creating a huge draught for people further back.

The air vents often don't work, but people rarely even try and use them anyway.

Oh and then, once you're approaching London and go through the many tunnels, a fast train will slam them all shut for you! Bang, bang, bang... Ouch!

Somehow I just know that if we did see aircon retrofitted, we'd end up with the windows being left openable and so it wouldn't work effectively anyway (aka the 317s given aircon that has to work flat out and still fail).

Perhaps I'm a bit naive, but I'd expect that the trains could have had aircon fitted and it wasn't selected for cost reasons (as against, it being unavailable because of the dual-voltage capability), which would mean it could be quite easily added. But there would of course be the issue of locking the windows shut, or replacing them completely.

Maybe solar reflective film would be a cheaper alternative?!

 

[D365]

The noise when the windows are open on a 365 is horrible. Okay, so some enthusiasts might prefer it, but the worst bit is that the person who opens the window above them is really creating a huge draught for people further back.

The air vents often don't work, but people rarely even try and use them anyway.

Oh and then, once you're approaching London and go through the many tunnels, a fast train will slam them all shut for you! Bang, bang, bang... Ouch!

Somehow I just know that if we did see aircon retrofitted, we'd end up with the windows being left openable and so it wouldn't work effectively anyway (aka the 317/7 given aircon that has to work flat out and still fail).

Perhaps I'm a bit naive, but I'd expect that the trains could have had aircon fitted and it wasn't selected for cost reasons (as against, it being unavailable because of the dual-voltage capability), which would mean it could be quite easily added. But there would of course be the issue of locking the windows shut, or replacing them completely.

Maybe solar reflective film would be a cheaper alternative?!

The windows are (one of the, few?) the fundamental problem(s) with the 365 imho. The latch which holds a pane shut often fails, meaning it takes a good pounding to shut the window, then oft opening and closing when travelling at a high speed through a tunnel, causing numerous eardrums to burst on a regular basis.

I can empathise entirely. Would write more but I'm a bit busy and this implement which I am writing from is laggy :L

 

[ryan125hst]

what is so mentally wrong with modern society that they can not stand being on a train, bus, coach, car or van without having god d*mn air con... I mean seriously, how often is it fully required... I mean seriously, using the class 365s as an example...

how many hours each year would Air Con actually be NEEDED for.

I mean for god sake, the longest journey on a 365 is what.. somewhere around about 1.5 hours (at a guess), from memory I seem to recall the 365s having opening windows (Sections)

I mean if your house gets hot in the summer... you open the windows
if your car gets warm... guess what.. you open the windows

Air conditioning is needed more on transport than in homes. Just look at how warm it is on the London Underground. Only now, with the introduction of the S Stock, is air conditioning being introduced.

I remember reading once (for Physics I think) that each person gives out as much heat as a 100w heater. So if a carriage has 100 people in it (say 70 seated and 30 standing), that's 10,000 watts of heat. And the people standing will probably give off more heat because their muscles are doing more work. Then you have to factor in the heat from the sun on the windows, the heat if the train has been sat in the sidings with the windows shut as mentioned above, and the temperature will rise very quickly, particularly if the train is stationary.

Are window openings smaller on trains today vs older designs? This will also make a difference.

As well as this, air conditioning can be used in reverse to heat a room in a house (it's called a heat pump). I don't know whether this is used on trains (I think it is on some at least, can anyone confirm this?), but using this would reduce the need to heat the train using electricity (heat pumps don't work very well below 0 degrees, so a back up will still be needed), so the expense of air conditioning could save money in the long run.

As a final note, I was surprised how quickly the car warmed up when I was with my Grandparents the other day. I was sat in the back with the door open and my sister and Grandad were also in the car. We were waiting for my Grandma. When she was locking the door, I closed the car door and the heat levels rose almost instantly. It just shows how quickly the heat can rise in a car, bus or train with no ventilation. There were only three people in the car, there might be 100 in a carriage.

I suppose people coped before, but everyone must have been used to it then. I'm guessing Global Warming has also had an effect and made temperatures a bit warmer?

 

[TEW]

The 166s already had air conditioning, and they operate similar routes to the 365s, so it was a strange omission, as the 365s were geared for 100mph, so weren't going to be used for slow commuter routes.

The original 166 air-con system was so unreliable it was basically useless anyway. The new system fitted has improved things, as has locking shut the windows, rather than just letting passengers open them and hence rendering the air-con pretty ineffectual.

 

[jon0844]

I suppose people coped before, but everyone must have been used to it then. I'm guessing Global Warming has also had an effect and made temperatures a bit warmer?

People still cope now, just, but a 365 [well, actually any FCC train] at King's Cross having come from Hornsey is horrible. You'll be sweating very quickly and it's only once the train gets moving that you can begin to hope to get some air movement and cool you by evaporation - if you're in the right place.

In reality, you'll have long passed Finsbury Park before the train can be considered comfortable, and anyone standing in the vestibules will find it far worse as those areas don't get much airflow at all.

I do think that sitting on a train sweating (and surrounded by others that are sweating) is not a nice environment, even if it's far from a life threatening one in the vast majority of cases - although I expect that in the summer there's always the problem with people not drinking enough water that will make some trains more of a risk than others.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Air conditioning is needed more on transport than in homes. Just look at how warm it is on the London Underground. Only now, with the introduction of the S Stock, is air conditioning being introduced.

I remember reading once (for Physics I think) that each person gives out as much heat as a 100w heater. So if a carriage has 100 people in it (say 70 seated and 30 standing), that's 10,000 watts of heat. And the people standing will probably give off more heat because their muscles are doing more work. Then you have to factor in the heat from the sun on the windows, the heat if the train has been sat in the sidings with the windows shut as mentioned above, and the temperature will rise very quickly, particularly if the train is stationary.

Are window openings smaller on trains today vs older designs? This will also make a difference.

As well as this, air conditioning can be used in reverse to heat a room in a house (it's called a heat pump). I don't know whether this is used on trains (I think it is on some at least, can anyone confirm this?), but using this would reduce the need to heat the train using electricity (heat pumps don't work very well below 0 degrees, so a back up will still be needed), so the expense of air conditioning could save money in the long run.

As a final note, I was surprised how quickly the car warmed up when I was with my Grandparents the other day. I was sat in the back with the door open and my sister and Grandad were also in the car. We were waiting for my Grandma. When she was locking the door, I closed the car door and the heat levels rose almost instantly. It just shows how quickly the heat can rise in a car, bus or train with no ventilation. There were only three people in the car, there might be 100 in a carriage.

I suppose people coped before, but everyone must have been used to it then. I'm guessing Global Warming has also had an effect and made temperatures a bit warmer?

Good points.

Fortunately my main commute is done on the Class 171s which do have air con, and dont have opening windows. However it does seem that on particularly hot days the air con is inclined to give up the ghost and the carriages quickly become virtually unbearable. On one occasion the guard actually arranged for bottled water to be handed out at Oxted because it was so hot on board the train.

But in addition to this I also do the hop from London Bridge to Charing Cross on South Eastern stock, much of which is not air conditioned and it can be extremely hot. This can give issues such as people passing out, now I suspect if someone historically passed out on a train they would be offloaded at the next station whilst medical help was awaited. These days they tend to be kept on the train until medical help arrives adding immensely to delays.

In addiition I think that much more of the slam door stock had more windows, and the widows opened much further, this created a real breeze throught the train. In addition the fit of doors and windows wasn't as good and this meant air passed in thorugh the various gaps. I suspect they also had significantly less kit whhich creates heat integral to them.

 

[D365]

H&S may have something to do with smaller opening windows. Unless you have a modern-build train with air-conditioning, which will almost always have none openable at all, or they will be locked. Of course, when the air-con fails, as described earlier... Passengers can hammer the panes!

However, retro-fits with windows left unlocked will end up with equipment failure as passengers will open up and push the air-con to death - see 317/7, previously.

Open windows can create quite a draught, especially when passing other trains on main lines and blasting through tunnels. On particularly hot days the windows will just blast hot air in. Air-con is always best, when it works...

 

[jon0844]

It shouldn't be that hard to make an air con system that can cope with just basic maintenance. Clearly having windows open, making the aircon work at full power all the time (and still not have any chance of cooling the train), isn't ideal but even that shouldn't cause it to fail.

Certainly you'd expect it to have an automatic cut out to stop it overheating or failing in these circumstances - although surely they're designed to work in far warmer and humid climates than here? Does aircon regularly fail in these countries?