New XC contract - what changes would you like to see?

[sprinterguy]

I would rather see empty seats (aka "space for passengers to spread out in comfort") with the potential for growth on some sections than regularly crowded trains on other sections discouraging long-distance travel. In the unlikely event that we end up with more surplus Voyagers than takers, suggest reform them into longer single trains to give better capacity than doubled-up trains, improve distribution of passengers through busy trains, reduce crew requirements and improve access to catering. Two five-cars reformed with one first class and one standard class driving car dropped would give just over 460 seats (roughly 26 F, ?438 S), versus about 400 (52 F, ?348 S) on a double-four-car Voyager of the same length.

I'd also like to see refurbished interiors with more tables - too many families have to sit apart from their children at present - and possibly replace at least one accessible WC with two adjacent space-saver WCs (as on many continental trains) to improve lavatory provision to an average of one WC per carriage.

That certainly does highlight the shortcomings of running pairs of short units compared to single units of the same total length. I think Crosscountry, even with the cheapest fares and best yield management strategies possible, would struggle to routinely fill 400+ seats on every service (Though as per now, there are some services where they absolutely could), mind, but then again the current frequency on York/Leeds - Birmingham is no greater today than it was 25 years ago, and their HSTs, with c.400 standard class seats, weren't exactly quiet then, in my experience, even north of that core section and before the last quarter century of passenger growth.

The Class 397 arguably looks a lot more like XC could do with looking, though I think I'd probably go for slightly fewer tables as that arguably has too many, not everyone likes them (the Class 158 original layout alternating tables with a pair of airlines is probably about bob-on - legroom was poor, but that was mostly because of poor seat design, it's cavernous with the same layout with ironing boards). But to do that without losing capacity it means longer trains - Avanti Voyager Coach D is lovely, but the capacity is incredibly low.

Fully agreed that a lower density seating arrangement with more tables per coach should be a given for such a long distance operation focused more heavily on leisure traffic, and that it's a pity that the trains are too short to allow any such sacrifice of seating capacity.

Also agreed that the general class 158 layout would be an ideal pattern to follow.

I don't usually indulge in Voyager-reforming flights of fancy, but, if all the ex-Avanti 221s went to XC, I suppose if one were to lose the driving vehicles from half the 4-car sets and merge the remainder, it'd be possible to end up with a fleet of 19 x 6-car and 40 x 5-car trains. 6-car trains offering around 26 First, 302 Standard based on current capacities, 59 sets in total against the current 58 in the XC fleet, and 27 vehicles more in the fleet (314) than will be the case when the 7 ex-Avanti units transfer over (287).

So overall, Devonian's plan of reforming the 5-car sets instead, giving 20 x 8-car and 38 x 4-car could be more beneficial, resulting in 20 longer trains and 2 fewer vehicles in total (312) by comparison in a fleet of 58 units, but a lot of trains would still remain single 4-car sets.

 

[Halish Railway]

Maybe not the best thread for this, but a friend of mine has told be that the CrossCountry Voyager he is on has automated announcements.

This is the working in question https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G59394/2023-09-22/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[fgwrich]

Integration, not competition, would be of benefit to internal Cornwall journeys. The fares aren't that high anyway. The integration of FGW and Thames Trains/Wessex Trains really has brought a lot of benefit.

Indeed - the boost to the branches since the merger has been phenomenal, particularly as FGW made sure that a lot of the branch services connected into the mainline ones, as well as simpler fares across the West Country.

Anyway, it’s probably already been mentioned but;

For the Voyager’s to be internally stripped out and rebuilt from scratch. Drop down to an IET style arrangement with the toilets - keep the DDA toilets in the outer driving vehicles, and fit smaller, standard, cupboard type toilets + larger luggage racks in their place. Remove the ridiculously thick overhead luggage racks and replace with thinner, more space friendly glass ones (perhaps with IET or Mk4 style seat res system). Replace the stupidly curvy ceiling with central lighting strip with a newer design (particularly the cigarette stained effect central part with often non working spotlights). New seats that aren’t as easily dented - how do the new ones in the Pendolinos compare for comfort? - in a better layout. That one perhaps isn’t as easy as XC continues to try to be the Jack of all trades, master of some (eg local journeys & intercity long distance).

Something I’ve noticed of late is that a lot of the overhead lighting isn’t working as well as it could / should be, leaving a number to feel quite dingy. This was yesterday evening with the central strip lights off. Reading lights were broken and the small light above my seat wasn’t working.

 

[WAB]

For the Voyager’s to be internally stripped out and rebuilt from scratch. Drop down to an IET style arrangement with the toilets - keep the DDA toilets in the outer driving vehicles, and fit smaller, standard, cupboard type toilets + larger luggage racks in their place. Remove the ridiculously thick overhead luggage racks and replace with thinner, more space friendly glass ones (perhaps with IET or Mk4 style seat res system). Replace the stupidly curvy ceiling with central lighting strip with a newer design (particularly the cigarette stained effect central part with often non working spotlights). New seats that aren’t as easily dented - how do the new ones in the Pendolinos compare for comfort? - in a better layout. That one perhaps isn’t as easy as XC continues to try to be the Jack of all trades, master of some (eg local journeys & intercity long distance).

A new reservation system with coloured lights IET-style would be nice. I would like thinner seats; say what you like about IET seats but the leg-room is just so much better than most other InterCity services.

Something I’ve noticed of late is that a lot of the overhead lighting isn’t working as well as it could / should be, leaving a number to feel quite dingy. This was yesterday evening with the central strip lights off. Reading lights were broken and the small light above my seat wasn’t working.

It's always a bit of a random selection of lighting whenever I go on a Voyager. Combined with the reduced legroom and the overcrowding, it does feel a step down compared to the IETs.

 

[geoffk]

Nope.

Congleton calls would be useful on a Sunday with its skeleton Northern service.

I'm quite pleased by the Cardiff to Edinburgh service. At the very least it's 4 or 5 more carriages between Cardiff and Bristol. Hopefully some decent prices advances for the full journey aswell, although that may be wishful thinking.

Why is it going via Bristol?

 

[BrianW]

Why is it going via Bristol?

I would imagine Bristol is a rather larger generator of business than the Forest of Dean- or are Chepstow and Lydney inadequately served? Is there a significant time penalty via Bristol?

 

[geoffk]

I would imagine Bristol is a rather larger generator of business than the Forest of Dean- or are Chepstow and Lydney inadequately served? Is there a significant time penalty via Bristol?

I assume that going via Bristol (Parkway or TM?) would mean missing Gloucester, which currently only has the Cardiff - Nottingham service on the NE/SW corridor. Bristol already has trains to Edinburgh.

 

[The Planner]

I assume that going via Bristol (Parkway or TM?) would mean missing Gloucester, which currently only has the Cardiff - Nottingham service on the NE/SW corridor. Bristol already has trains to Edinburgh.

If it just ends up as a token service, it could well end up just getting diverted into Gloucester.

 

[GoneSouth]

If it just ends up as a token service, it could well end up just getting diverted into Gloucester.

It does look like a token Service, just an extension of one existing Bristol to Edinburgh early morning service. Gloucester already has its Cardiff Nottingham service plus TFW hourly to Cardiff

 

[greyman42]

New seats that aren’t as easily dented - how do the new ones in the Pendolinos compare for comfort?

I am yet to come across a new seat that is comfier than the old one.

 

[dk1]

There's still six trains per day from Cardiff which don't go south of Taunton; would extending those be any easier than CrossCountry services?

That is the plan eventually. The service will go to a full hourly frequency and pick up the new station calls at Cullompton & Wellington.

 

[GoneSouth]

I am yet to come across a new seat that is comfier than the old one.

Yes, lots of the suggestions here do seem to want to remove the good things about voyagers, comfy seating, lighting that isn’t as bright as stadium floodlights, accessible toilets throughout the train rather than just one!

Aircon that works properly works be nice though.

 

[dk1]

Yes, lots of the suggestions here do seem to want to remove the good things about voyagers, comfy seating, lighting that isn’t as bright as stadium floodlights, accessible toilets throughout the train rather than just one!

Exactly. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[GoneSouth]

Before the pandemic (for at least presumably 5 years up to 2019) XC did run an HST from York to Penzance at around 7:45am, arriving around 8 hours later. It returned at 16:25 to Leeds, arriving about 23:55.

XC also ran an 07:05ish from Manchester to Newquay arriving around 14:30. It returned around 15:30/35 arriving back at around 22:35.

I assume these were Saturday only?

 

[dk1]

I assume these were Saturday only?

Yes they were.

 

[geoffk]

It does look like a token Service, just an extension of one existing Bristol to Edinburgh early morning service. Gloucester already has its Cardiff Nottingham service plus TFW hourly to Cardiff

But Gloucester has nothing to or from Sheffield, Leeds or Newcastle. Correction - the 13.05 Edinburgh - Plymouth calls there but nothing going north. But if we're talking about the extension of an existing service then it will be Cardiff - Bristol TM, reverse, Parkway - Cheltenham.

 

[Mark J]

Does this mean any restoration of the stops at Brockenhurst? Looking at the timetable, the service takes as long Bmth-Soton whether it stops at Brock or not. So why not stop there and reopen the links back up from further north to a national park?

There is no need for XC to stop at Brockenhurst.

SWR already provide an adequate service to Brockenhurst and the XC service does not need to be slowed down with even more unnecessary stops.

 

[irish_rail]

There is no need for XC to stop at Brockenhurst.

SWR already provide an adequate service to Brockenhurst and the XC service does not need to be slowed down with even more unnecessary stops.

And yet Totnes is deemed worthy of every single XC train stopping there. Personally I see Brockenhurst a fairly worthwhile location as its essentially the gateway to the New Forest. XC isn't about fast services. Maybe it should be, would be nice to have some quicker runs to the south west for example, but no, everything stops at the likes of Totnes, and I don't think Brockenhurst should be any different.

 

[geoffk]

And yet Totnes is deemed worthy of every single XC train stopping there. Personally I see Brockenhurst a fairly worthwhile location as its essentially the gateway to the New Forest. XC isn't about fast services. Maybe it should be, would be nice to have some quicker runs to the south west for example, but no, everything stops at the likes of Totnes, and I don't think Brockenhurst should be any different.

Brockenhurst also offers connections to the Isle of Wight. Yes, Totnes is very well served for a place of its size and only a handful of early morning trains don't stop.

 

[Mark J]

And yet Totnes is deemed worthy of every single XC train stopping there. Personally I see Brockenhurst a fairly worthwhile location as its essentially the gateway to the New Forest. XC isn't about fast services. Maybe it should be, would be nice to have some quicker runs to the south west for example, but no, everything stops at the likes of Totnes, and I don't think Brockenhurst should be any different.

Southampton to Brockenhurst is as little as 13 minutes by SWR.

Bournemouth to Brockenhurst - 14 minutes.

There really is no need for XC to stop at Brockenhurst, or is it too much hassle for some to do a simple change of trains?

Especially when the SWR timetable is roughly three trains an hour from each direction.

I'm really not in favour of slowing down faster Intercity services with more yet stops.

 

[The Planner]

There is no need for XC to stop at Brockenhurst.

SWR already provide an adequate service to Brockenhurst and the XC service does not need to be slowed down with even more unnecessary stops.

They arent slowed down though, the stops are replaced with pathing and performance time.

 

[GoneSouth]

Southampton to Brockenhurst is as little as 13 minutes by SWR.

Bournemouth to Brockenhurst - 14 minutes.

There really is no need for XC to stop at Brockenhurst, or is it too much hassle for some to do a simple change of trains?

Especially when the SWR timetable is roughly three trains an hour from each direction.

I'm really not in favour of slowing down faster Intercity services with more yet stops.

And yet Totnes is deemed worthy of every single XC train stopping there. Personally I see Brockenhurst a fairly worthwhile location as its essentially the gateway to the New Forest. XC isn't about fast services. Maybe it should be, would be nice to have some quicker runs to the south west for example, but no, everything stops at the likes of Totnes, and I don't think Brockenhurst should be any different.

To be fair, I think the points some are making is that the stops for Brockenhurst
Were removed without speeding up the service so why can’t they be reintroduced with slowing them down?

Also note that it’s relatively easy to change for Totnes in the same way as you say it is for Brockenhurst. 12 mins from Newton Abbot with 2 tph down To Penzance. Coming the other way it’s about 25 mins from Plymouth so not too hard to do also, and in fact the half of the GWR services that do pick up at Totnes continue to Bristol as well.

I’m not saying if it’s right or wrong to stop at Totnes/Brockenhurst, but it does seem like a similar situation to me.

 

[RobShipway]

To be fair, I think the points some are making is that the stops for Brockenhurst
Were removed without speeding up the service so why can’t they be reintroduced with slowing them down?

Also note that it’s relatively easy to change for Totnes in the same way as you say it is for Brockenhurst. 12 mins from Newton Abbot with 2 tph down To Penzance. Coming the other way it’s about 25 mins from Plymouth so not too hard to do also, and in fact the half of the GWR services that do pick up at Totnes continue to Bristol as well.

I’m not saying if it’s right or wrong to stop at Totnes/Brockenhurst, but it does seem like a similar situation to me.

Not sure if there still is, but there also used to be good bus services both from Bournemouth and Southampton that used to be able to take people to both Brockenhurst and the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu.

Now if you look on the Bealieu website https://www.beaulieu.co.uk/plan-your-visit/getting-here/ it states the following about getting to the museum by train:

"The London to Weymouth train passes regularly through Brockenhurst, which is the closest main line station to Beaulieu. There is a taxi rank at the station and the cost of a journey to Beaulieu by taxi is approx £20. Alternatively, why not hire a bike and cycle the seven miles through the New Forest to Beaulieu? Cycle hire details can be found on the New Forest National Park cycle hire information website."

I am sure that the X1 used to go into bus stop area at Beaulieu, but it seems that now you have to catch the X1 bus from St SWithun's Road South in Bournemouth and change in Lymington High Street to get service 112 to arrive at your destination. If you want to travel from Brockenhurst station you get the number 6 bus from Forresters Arms to Ricardo Way, where you get the 112 service to Beaulieu Garage. Failing that if you travelling to Beaulieu or the New Forest between 1 July - 17 September you can use the New Forest Tour bus Green Route to get you to Beaulieu or the New Forest from Brockenhurst Station.

Whilst I can see the need for XC services during Spring/Summer timetable to be stopping at Brockenhurst, I cannot see the need during the Autumn/Winter timetable which we are now effectively into, despite the warmer weather we are currently seeing. As other have pointed put there is regular enough services whether it be the fast services between Weymouth/Poole/Bournemouth to London or stopping services travelling to Winchester or Basingstoke from Poole/Bournemouth.

 

[The Planner]

Whilst I can see the need for XC services during Spring/Summer timetable to be stopping at Brockenhurst, I cannot see the need during the Autumn/Winter timetable which we are now effectively into, despite the warmer weather we are currently seeing. As other have pointed put there is regular enough services whether it be the fast services between Weymouth/Poole/Bournemouth to London or stopping services travelling to Winchester or Basingstoke from Poole/Bournemouth.

That makes it messy though with timetable period changes, as the May timetable change is later than when the traffic would pick up and December is way past when it would drop off. The schedules wouldn't alter either, it would be what happens now with pathing added for the missed stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure if there still is, but there also used to be good bus services both from Bournemouth and Southampton that used to be able to take people to both Brockenhurst and the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu.

Now if you look on the Bealieu website https://www.beaulieu.co.uk/plan-your-visit/getting-here/ it states the following about getting to the museum by train:

"The London to Weymouth train passes regularly through Brockenhurst, which is the closest main line station to Beaulieu. There is a taxi rank at the station and the cost of a journey to Beaulieu by taxi is approx £20. Alternatively, why not hire a bike and cycle the seven miles through the New Forest to Beaulieu? Cycle hire details can be found on the New Forest National Park cycle hire information website."

I am sure that the X1 used to go into bus stop area at Beaulieu, but it seems that now you have to catch the X1 bus from St SWithun's Road South in Bournemouth and change in Lymington High Street to get service 112 to arrive at your destination. If you want to travel from Brockenhurst station you get the number 6 bus from Forresters Arms to Ricardo Way, where you get the 112 service to Beaulieu Garage. Failing that if you travelling to Beaulieu or the New Forest between 1 July - 17 September you can use the New Forest Tour bus Green Route to get you to Beaulieu or the New Forest from Brockenhurst Station.

Whilst I can see the need for XC services during Spring/Summer timetable to be stopping at Brockenhurst, I cannot see the need during the Autumn/Winter timetable which we are now effectively into, despite the warmer weather we are currently seeing. As other have pointed put there is regular enough services whether it be the fast services between Weymouth/Poole/Bournemouth to London or stopping services travelling to Winchester or Basingstoke from Poole/Bournemouth.

I'm not sure that I'd predicate it on the Motor Museum. Brockenhurst is quite small but it's the "gateway" to the New Forest for most rail travellers. It's also the junction for Lymington for the IoW Ferry, though I suspect long distance rail travellers doing that are more likely to go Portsmouth to Ryde. There is demand for it, but I equally understand why XC might want to miss it out if the timetable can be improved without it. If it can't, though, then it makes sense to stop.

 

[stu]

There is no need for XC to stop at Brockenhurst.

SWR already provide an adequate service to Brockenhurst and the XC service does not need to be slowed down with even more unnecessary stops.

The XC service is not slowed down by stopping at Brock, the service takes the same time Bournemouth to Southampton whether it stops there or not.

SWR do provide a perfectly good service, but they don't stop at stations north of Basingstoke, that's what the XC service is for - to provide connections from the Midlands and the North to a national park, and also further connections to the Isle of Wight.

 

[ChrisC]

The XC service is not slowed down by stopping at Brock, the service takes the same time Bournemouth to Southampton whether it stops there or not.

That‘s the really annoying thing. If missing out stops cut journey times for long distance travellers I could perhaps see the reason for it. It’s the same at Chesterfield which has inconvenienced far higher passenger numbers all year round than places like Brockenhurst. XC are now only calling at Chesterfield every 2 hours but the trains are now spending longer standing at Derby. Pre Covid XC called at Chesterfield at least hourly.

 

[Killingworth]

The question must attract irreconcilable conflicts of interest when it comes to service frequencies and destinations.

However there are three or four fundamental points on which we can probably all agree.

1. Current, and any new recycled units, need a complete refurbishment.

2. The fare structure needs a total revamp. By using split ticketing and playing musical chairs a longer distance journey can be half the price of sitting in one seat for the full journey at full price. (The pricing of first class needs attention too.)

3. More capacity. It's no fun standing, or a party being split along the train.

4. More luggage capacity. Too often seats and tables are loaded with it reducing effective seating capacity, certainly reducing the comfort of the journey for those crammed in around it.

When it comes to services CrossCountry have a nightmare of a network to keep happy.

A train that starts in Edinburgh and finishes in Penzance can't have the ideal number of available seats at all points on the journey. Ideal depends on viewpoint. For me as a traveller about 60% occupied is fine, over 80% is getting crowded and over 90% is likely to be becoming unpleasant. For XC the more sections loading at 90% the better.

Living within a couple of miles of the Peak District I use Chesterfield going south. Or I did when more trains stopped there. High fares, overcrowding and reduced numbers of stops have deterred recent journeys.

Going north towards Newcastle I'd go into Sheffield. However many of the faster services via Doncaster were removed during Covid. Going via Leeds is 20 minutes longer and usually more crowded. I tend to drive north, or maybe park at Doncaster and use LNER.

So I'd want more trains stopping at Chesterfield and going via Doncaster. And cheaper fares, of course!

Ah, forgot catering. It would be good if it could be relied upon.

 

[GoneSouth]

The question must attract irreconcilable conflicts of interest when it comes to service frequencies and destinations.

However there are three or four fundamental points on which we can probably all agree.

1. Current, and any new recycled units, need a complete refurbishment.

2. The fare structure needs a total revamp. By using split ticketing and playing musical chairs a longer distance journey can be half the price of sitting in one seat for the full journey at full price. (The pricing of first class needs attention too.)

3. More capacity. It's no fun standing, or a party being split along the train.

4. More luggage capacity. Too often seats and tables are loaded with it reducing effective seating capacity, certainly reducing the comfort of the journey for those crammed in around it.

When it comes to services CrossCountry have a nightmare of a network to keep happy.

A train that starts in Edinburgh and finishes in Penzance can't have the ideal number of available seats at all points on the journey. Ideal depends on viewpoint. For me as a traveller about 60% occupied is fine, over 80% is getting crowded and over 90% is likely to be becoming unpleasant. For XC the more sections loading at 90% the better.

Living within a couple of miles of the Peak District I use Chesterfield going south. Or I did when more trains stopped there. High fares, overcrowding and reduced numbers of stops have deterred recent journeys.

Going north towards Newcastle I'd go into Sheffield. However many of the faster services via Doncaster were removed during Covid. Going via Leeds is 20 minutes longer and usually more crowded. I tend to drive north, or maybe park at Doncaster and use LNER.

So I'd want more trains stopping at Chesterfield and going via Doncaster. And cheaper fares, of course!

Ah, forgot catering. It would be good if it could be relied upon.

Completely agree about the catering, just assume it’s not going to be available which is a sad state of affairs for someone travelling 5 hours! It’s either too busy for the trolley to travel down the train (in which case it’s probably also too busy for me to walk with boiling hot coffee through a packed train), or the trolley is stuck in a completely inaccessible portion of the train as it’s a doubled up unit, which is utterly useless. The XC catering staff are very helpful and friendly though when I do manage to use the service, and always offer a choice of something that’s b been left in the gallery if they haven’t got space for it on the trolley.

 

[BrianW]

XC must be a nightmare for planners. Needing to 'intertwine' with other services given preference for London Trains at Temple Meads, New Street, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds ... 'Intermediate' lower tier stations are bound to be a secondary priority, though there are lots of candidates, all 'deserving'. I doubt that XC have no concern for potential customers, though as Killingworth observes the variable loadings along the route and across the day and days are further complicating factors.

To my mind, the basics are-
- consistent clockface service
- consistently long (9car) trains
- consistent catering through the train

Any improvements, including restorations, come after the basics. Surely(?) XC 'test' such matters from time to time, and have an 'improvement plan' (aka wish list?).
Indeed their Annual Report provides some 'interesting' data and reflections:

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/6809/11931284_customerreport_spring2023_masterdoc_150.pdf

I note particularly the dreadful decline in performance, incl cancellations, comfort and toilets, and the lack of concrete plans for improvement.
Self congratulation: improved bus services from Chesterfield- no lack of irony there! Supporting this or that community, with photos!

One could despair, while recognising the newsworthiness of the Union Connectivity of 1tpd Cardiff- Edinburgh.