Newcastle ticket office charging, I believe, an incorrect change of route excess

[ainsworth74]

So I hold an Anytime Short Distance Return from Middlesbrough to Newcastle Airport routed via Hartlepool with a Two Together Railcard this costs £16.65.

Due to the jet bridge at Newcastle breaking whilst being attached to the aircraft by the time I got to Newcastle to catch a Northern I just missed one (like I could have seen the tail lamps if there hadn't been an LNER blocking the view). Next in an hour.

Rather than waiting decided to get a change of route excess as I reckoned it would be a few quid each and I'd rather get home half an hour late than an hour.

Go to the ticket office and off to a good start when the guy wants to sell me two new tickets (in fairness I think he might have still be training but still). A colleague with him said no it's an excess so you do it differently. He works out the excess from the ticket I hold to an Any Permitted Anytime Short Distance Return (£21.90) for the return portion only. But then wants to charge two £10 change of journey fees. I gently suggest that's wrong it's fee free and gets a their colleague who confirms no change of journey fee but you have to charge the whole difference not just half.

I argue a bit with her (politely!) but time is marching on and if I miss the next LNER it's a moot point anyway so just pay.

After I leave I then realise that it should be to the Off Peak Return (£19.15) anyway as that's the most appropriate ticket for immediate travel.

So rather than £2.50 for both tickets I've been charged £10.50!

Have I got anything wrong here or have I been charged four times what I should have been?

Link to the relevant fares on BR Fares:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

(Yes, I could have bought onboard but I'm with my mum and I didn't want to risk coming across an RPI who might decide to wrongly PF us requiring probably an appeal all the way to the third stage each to resolve. So just, haha, decided pay the money and move on .)

 

[Hadders]

There's no change of journey fee for an excess. And a change of route excess for one portion of a return ticket is half the difference between the cost of the appropriate fares.

I would contact LNER Customer Relations who should be ablke to sort this.

 

[sheff1]

So three members of staff, each with different ‘solution’, all of which were wrong.
Going on personal experience, wouldn’t be surprised if Customer Relations got it wrong as well.

 

[WesternLancer]

So three members of staff, each with different ‘solution’, all of which were wrong.
Going on personal experience, wouldn’t be surprised if Customer Relations got it wrong as well.

When I had this issue with GWR I set out clearly to customer services what I believed was done wrong and detailed the sum I believed I was owed back and invited them to pay it. As opposed to getting them to come up with a sum. This worked in my case.

 

[robbeech]

Ah, The Railway.

The problem is, whether they’re in training or otherwise, the other people there that were beyond the training period also had no clue so it’s likely not part (or at best, not a significant part) of the training process.

I’m fairly confident that LNER will happily refund the difference upon contact but it’s not a good advert for keeping ticket offices if one of the ever decreasing tasks you can’t do online, on an app or at a machine can’t be done properly at such a major station.

I once wanted to change a pair of tickets with a two together card from a via Doncaster to a via Leeds. A difference of 40pence, so 20pence for the return leg only. I was told there was never and had never been a way to charge half the difference.
This was at Leeds ticket office having had permission to travel to that point on the understanding I’d get the excess there.
Leeds ticket office is Northern run of course.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks guys, glad I'm not losing my edge with fares

As @robbeech says it's particularly frustrating that when you do need a ticket office they can't actually get what you need done right so you have to go to customer services to try and get it fixed.

Of course the final irony is that the LNER guard never made it round to check out tickets, whilst the Northern conductor was more intrigued in why the tickets said APN (the CRS code for Newcastle Airport) rather than the route field which clearly says "Via Hartlepool" despite them checking just as we left Darlington.

So by doing the right thing I've been left out of pocket and having to chase up customer services to get my money back

 

[J.C.]

I had similar experiences trying to excess a Halifax to Manchester Stations return to travel via Huddersfield on a few occasions many years ago. No idea at Victoria or Oxford Road how to do it

In the end I bought a single (time was short and explanations from me getting nowhere) each time to get me home.

On each occasion I wrote to Northern who refunded the ticket I'd had to buy. But it made me wonder how few requests to do this they might receive and how often people must write off the 'that's not possible, mate' cost of an expensive replacement ticket.

 

[Geswedey]

When I was a travel centre clerk, Aptis/Sportis Instructor, Ticket Examiner, Booking Clerks and Guards Instructor and later as an RPI, Excess fare regulations were an important part of the training and knowledge base including how to issue them both on Excess Books and on Aptis/Sportis and later ticket issuing machines. mind you we also had a printed excess fare regulation publications to refer to rather than remembering where things are on a computer based knowledge base.

 

[WesternLancer]

On each occasion I wrote to Northern who refunded the ticket I'd had to buy. But it made me wonder how few requests to do this they might receive and how often people must write off the 'that's not possible, mate' cost of an expensive replacement ticket.

I guess most people just accept what they are told, assuming the staff know their job properly if they work in a ticket office - plus a general line of thinking that UK train fares are 'very expensive' - so i doubt they get many enquiries about these sorts of problems at customer services at all

 

[Haywain]

When I was a travel centre clerk, Aptis/Sportis Instructor, Ticket Examiner, Booking Clerks and Guards Instructor and later as an RPI, Excess fare regulations were an important part of the training and knowledge base including how to issue them both on Excess Books and on Aptis/Sportis and later ticket issuing machines. mind you we also had a printed excess fare regulation publications to refer to rather than remembering where things are on a computer based knowledge base.

Are you going to suggest that nobody ever got it wrong in those days?

 

[Geswedey]

Are you going to suggest that nobody ever got it wrong in those days?

No I am not but I know I was properly trained as were those I trained, with a printed manual it was also easier to look things up if you weren't sure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you going to suggest that nobody ever got it wrong in those days?

Charging route excesses as the full difference when it should be half has happened to me more often than not when I've asked for them. It almost seems the vast majority of booking office staff are misinformed as to how they work. This was the same right back to BR days.

 

[voyagerdude220]

When I was a travel centre clerk, Aptis/Sportis Instructor, Ticket Examiner, Booking Clerks and Guards Instructor and later as an RPI, Excess fare regulations were an important part of the training and knowledge base including how to issue them both on Excess Books and on Aptis/Sportis and later ticket issuing machines. mind you we also had a printed excess fare regulation publications to refer to rather than remembering where things are on a computer based knowledge base.

Sadly I've been in my Ticket Office role just over a decade and I can confirm that I've never received any training on excess fares.

Also I've had difficulty with the Star machine I use sometimes. There's a known bug on the system preventing you excessing tickets with Two Together Railcards- the work around is to simply use a different Railcard.

Also I've had difficulty recently trying to only excess one part of a return fare - with the computer insisting on charging the entire difference between the two fares and not just half the difference, even when I've selected Return Only excess on the computer.

 

[sheff1]

Are you going to suggest that nobody ever got it wrong in those days?

Charging route excesses as the full difference when it should be half has happened to me more often than not when I've asked for them. It almost seems the vast majority of booking office staff are misinformed as to how they work. This was the same right back to BR days.

When I worked in the booking office at one of the busiest stations in the country back in the 70s we were all given full training on how to calculate and issue excesses (written out by hand as I recall).

Obviously I do not know whether that was the case at other stations, but am confident we would not have come up with three different incorrect fares where I worked.

 

[Geswedey]

When I worked in the booking office at one of the busiest stations in the country back in the 70s we were all given full training on how to calculate and issue excesses (written out by hand as I recall).

Obviously I do not know whether that was the case at other stations, but am confident we would not have come up with three different incorrect fares where I worked.

Agreed I was trained at King's Cross in the late 70's and we were certainly trained thoroughly in ticketing regulations although to be fair the ticketing system was a lot less complicated then, I last issued an Excess in 2007 at Liverpool Street and we were certainly well trained there then.

 

[Crimzz]

Also I've had difficulty with the Star machine I use sometimes. There's a known bug on the system preventing you excessing tickets with Two Together Railcards- the work around is to simply use a different Railcard.

As stated above there's an issue with excessing on a 2TR, The system only allows you to excess one ticket at a time. However if you try putting in 1 ticket with the 2TR railcard the system won't show any fares as 2 tickets is required for the railcard.

 

[father_jack]

As stated above there's an issue with excessing on a 2TR, The system only allows you to excess one ticket at a time. However if you try putting in 1 ticket with the 2TR railcard the system won't show any fares as 2 tickets is required for the railcard.

Choose any other 33% off railcard, then do excess as usual, then "Send to Manual Fares" and change railcard type back to 2TR and bobs your uncle and fannys your aunt.

 

[talldave]

Sadly I've been in my Ticket Office role just over a decade and I can confirm that I've never received any training on excess fares.

Also I've had difficulty with the Star machine I use sometimes. There's a known bug on the system preventing you excessing tickets with Two Together Railcards- the work around is to simply use a different Railcard.

Also I've had difficulty recently trying to only excess one part of a return fare - with the computer insisting on charging the entire difference between the two fares and not just half the difference, even when I've selected Return Only excess on the computer.

How long has the Two Together bug remained unfixed?

We can only guess that the people specifying and implementing excess functionality are as similarly misinformed as everyone else!

 

[voyagerdude220]

How long has the Two Together bug remained unfixed?

We can only guess that the people specifying and implementing excess functionality are as similarly misinformed as everyone else!

Tell me about it! I strongly agree with you- It's ridiculous that it hasn't been fixed by now.

 

[island]

Especially when it is permissible for one ticket to be issued with a Two Together discount, if the other cardholder is travelling on the same journey using an annual season ticket. (source: iKB)

 

[robbeech]

How long has the Two Together bug remained unfixed?

I can’t put a time on it but I failed to get the correct excess, likely 11 years ago. And it’s clearly still and issue.

But why fix something which will result in reduced revenue.

I can assure you if it had been excessing for a price lower than what it should it wouldn’t have managed now than a few days before being fixed.

 

[Haywain]

I'm pretty sure that Worldline MTIS allows Two Together tickets to be excessed.

 

[yorkie]

So by doing the right thing I've been left out of pocket and having to chase up customer services to get my money back

Indeed.

It's also worth noting that there is no penalty for buying on board; the price is the same (the caveat being for some journeys and at some locations, you'd not get past barriers, but that wouldn't apply here; an example where it would apply would be a London to Birmingham Route: High Wycombe ticket being used from Paddington or Euston).

I have also had very poor experiences of purchasing excess fares, and indeed many other types of tickets, from ticket offices. Fortunately these days I rarely have to visit ticket offices (and I look forward to the day when there is never any need!)

 

[Ziggiesden]

Sadly I've been in my Ticket Office role just over a decade and I can confirm that I've never received any training on excess fares.

Also I've had difficulty with the Star machine I use sometimes. There's a known bug on the system preventing you excessing tickets with Two Together Railcards- the work around is to simply use a different Railcard.

Also I've had difficulty recently trying to only excess one part of a return fare - with the computer insisting on charging the entire difference between the two fares and not just half the difference, even when I've selected Return Only excess on the computer.

You can do it with a Manual Fares Excess - go into Favourites and send the last one back to Manual Fares to edit the ticket number if you have to. It is a pain but that's how we do it or just send the same one to the basket again if it is 12345 as the ticket number for online tickets.

 

[Ziggiesden]

So I hold an Anytime Short Distance Return from Middlesbrough to Newcastle Airport routed via Hartlepool with a Two Together Railcard this costs £16.65.

Due to the jet bridge at Newcastle breaking whilst being attached to the aircraft by the time I got to Newcastle to catch a Northern I just missed one (like I could have seen the tail lamps if there hadn't been an LNER blocking the view). Next in an hour.

Rather than waiting decided to get a change of route excess as I reckoned it would be a few quid each and I'd rather get home half an hour late than an hour.

Go to the ticket office and off to a good start when the guy wants to sell me two new tickets (in fairness I think he might have still be training but still). A colleague with him said no it's an excess so you do it differently. He works out the excess from the ticket I hold to an Any Permitted Anytime Short Distance Return (£21.90) for the return portion only. But then wants to charge two £10 change of journey fees. I gently suggest that's wrong it's fee free and gets a their colleague who confirms no change of journey fee but you have to charge the whole difference not just half.

I argue a bit with her (politely!) but time is marching on and if I miss the next LNER it's a moot point anyway so just pay.

After I leave I then realise that it should be to the Off Peak Return (£19.15) anyway as that's the most appropriate ticket for immediate travel.

So rather than £2.50 for both tickets I've been charged £10.50!

Have I got anything wrong here or have I been charged four times what I should have been?

Link to the relevant fares on BR Fares:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

(Yes, I could have bought onboard but I'm with my mum and I didn't want to risk coming across an RPI who might decide to wrongly PF us requiring probably an appeal all the way to the third stage each to resolve. So just, haha, decided pay the money and move on .)

We have the policy of allowing any "reasonable route" instead of any "permitted route" during disruption and we give an itinerary stamped to allow that particular journey we have found to mitigate the pain. Each Operator is different, unfortunately. We did get this recently - don't know if any of you guys have seen it, it was a precursor to an industry standard that applies to all, the National Rail Conditions of Travel will eventually be updated to incorporate it:

 

[yorkie]

We have the policy of allowing any "reasonable route" instead of any "permitted route" during disruption and we give an itinerary stamped to allow that particular journey we have found to mitigate the pain. Each Operator is different, unfortunately. We did get this recently - don't know if any of you guys have seen it, it was a precursor to an industry standard that applies to all, the National Rail Conditions of Travel will eventually be updated to incorporate it:

Yes, when disruption occurs, change of route excess fares should be waived where appropriate.

However, there was no disruption in this case; it was a matter of the ticket office overcharging the customer, and several different people having several different ideas as to what to charge, all of them incorrect.

 

[ainsworth74]

We have the policy of allowing any "reasonable route" instead of any "permitted route" during disruption and we give an itinerary stamped to allow that particular journey we have found to mitigate the pain. Each Operator is different, unfortunately. We did get this recently - don't know if any of you guys have seen it, it was a precursor to an industry standard that applies to all, the National Rail Conditions of Travel will eventually be updated to incorporate it:

Due to Newcastle Airport not being able to deploy their jet bridge promptly you'd allow travel via a different route for free even though the disruption has nothing to do with any railway company? I mean that's good customer service I suppose but I don't expect to be able to rely upon it. To be clear, there was no disruption on the railway that day. All trains ran to time (or within a few minutes of booked time).

Though I do expect to be able to have a change of route excess issued correctly when requested however.

 

[rocrat]

My take on this is very much that, given a change of route excess can be obtained without penalty on-board, *and* that Consumer Protection against Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 state they cannot use a position of power (e.g., threat of a penalty fare/prosecution) to overcharge you, is to simply travel.

They are welcome to either charge me the correct excess or simply allow me to travel/exit "as a gesture of goodwill" or otherwise... yes, obtaining an excess is a bit of a novelty, but I'm not going to lose any sleep if they can't sell it!

The only generates problems if you also want a break of journey or have an out of station interchange.

 

[ainsworth74]

My take on this is very much that, given a change of route excess can be obtained without penalty on-board, *and* that Consumer Protection against Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 state they cannot use a position of power (e.g., threat of a penalty fare/prosecution) to overcharge you, is to simply travel.

They are welcome to either charge me the correct excess or simply allow me to travel/exit "as a gesture of goodwill" or otherwise... yes, obtaining an excess is a bit of a novelty, but I'm not going to lose any sleep if they can't sell it!

The only generates problems if you also want a break of journey or have an out of station interchange.

Oh agreed. If it had just been me alone I'd have travelled and paid on board and had any necessary arguments.

But my 73 year mother isn't quite as combative as I am in ticketing matters. This is a woman who insisted I go and buy her a ticket after a conductor failed to appear to sell her a ticket between South Bank (no TVM/ticket office) and Redcar Central (ticket office closed) as she travelled so needs to pay for her journey!

 

[Ziggiesden]

Yes, when disruption occurs, change of route excess fares should be waived where appropriate.

However, there was no disruption in this case; it was a matter of the ticket office overcharging the customer, and several different people having several different ideas as to what to charge, all of them incorrect.

Ah, I assumed that LNER had put out a notice for staff to use discretion and allow travel. They normally do that even when there is a traffic jam somewhere. I wonder if there actually was one that day?