Newcastle ticket office charging, I believe, an incorrect change of route excess

[ainsworth74]

Ah, I assumed that LNER had put out a notice for staff to use discretion and allow travel. They normally do that even when there is a traffic jam somewhere. I wonder if there actually was one that day?

Why would LNER put out a notification that one BA flight was unable to unload passengers for twenty minutes whilst they tried to fettle the jet bridge? How would they even know? I'm very confused by what this has to do with three members of staff at Newcastle ticket office not understanding how to correctly issue an excess fare.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Why would LNER put out a notification that one BA flight was unable to unload passengers for twenty minutes whilst they tried to fettle the jet bridge? How would they even know? I'm very confused by what this has to do with three members of staff at Newcastle ticket office not understanding how to correctly issue an excess fare.

They usually talk to each other - integrated transport. They send us messages when there is a traffic jam or some other incident anywhere in the network. We will do favours for delayed passengers - say they have missed the 16:39 Inverness - we will put them on one of ours with an authority to travel even when no ticket acceptance has been agreed.

 

[ainsworth74]

They usually talk to each other - integrated transport. They send us messages when there is a traffic jam or some other incident anywhere in the network. We will do favours for delayed passengers - say they have missed the 16:39 Inverness - we will put them on one of ours with an authority to travel even when no ticket acceptance has been agreed.

British Airways would send a message to LNER to tell them that the flight BA1334 (the only flight that suffered a delay) at Newcastle was delayed in de-boarding by 20 minutes please accept any effected passengers by any reasonable route? That's the sort of messages you see regularly coming through? I'm not sure, to be quite honest I believe you frankly.

But, again, I still don't see how this is relevant to Newcastle ticket office having three members of staff who were unable to correctly issue a change of route excess. Perhaps you'd like to comment on that seeing as that's the fundamental issue here? Ticket office staff unable to issue something which, had it been available online, I have no doubt I would have been able to get with no issue. Some failure of BA and LNER to communicate a minor delay to one flight to arrange ticket acceptance for passengers on that flight isn't really relevant.

 

[Ziggiesden]

British Airways would send a message to LNER to tell them that the flight BA1334 (the only flight that suffered a delay) at Newcastle was delayed in de-boarding by 20 minutes please accept any effected passengers by any reasonable route? That's the sort of messages you see regularly coming through? I'm not sure, to be quite honest I believe you frankly.

But, again, I still don't see how this is relevant to Newcastle ticket office having three members of staff who were unable to correctly issue a change of route excess. Perhaps you'd like to comment on that seeing as that's the fundamental issue here? Ticket office staff unable to issue something which, had it been available online, I have no doubt I would have been able to get with no issue. Some failure of BA and LNER to communicate a minor delay to one flight to arrange ticket acceptance for passengers on that flight isn't really relevant.

We actually even get a message about a fare dodger in Doncaster hopping on and off trains, as an example.

The principle is forewarned is forearmed as on occasion they come to us, eventually, unless the British Transport Police nab them, which is quite rare as they are rather thin on the ground most days.

You don't have to believe me, it doesn't change the fact it is true.

Something else you need to consider. Why should one plane load of people, a percentage of which will use Rail (probably), get less consideration than a whole airport such as Heathrow?

It is relevant because of the "domino effect" and consideration in giving good service. Although the delay was minor (20 minutes - had this once myself - it took an hour as they had to wait for replacement equipment) it can badly affect those who have cut it a bit fine with a combination of tickets that are train company specific.

 

[ainsworth74]

We actually even get a message about a fare dodger in Doncaster hopping on and off trains, as an example.

The principle is forewarned is forearmed as on occasion they come to us, eventually, unless the British Transport Police nab them, which is quite rare as they are rather thin on the ground most days.

You don't have to believe me, it doesn't change the fact it is true.

Something else you need to consider. Why should one plane load of people, a percentage of which will use Rail (probably), get less consideration than a whole airport such as Heathrow?

It is relevant because of the "domino effect" and consideration in giving good service. Although the delay was minor (20 minutes - had this once myself - it took an hour as they had to wait for replacement equipment) it can badly affect those who have cut it a bit fine with a combination of tickets that are train company specific.

Okay so lets just agree that in some fantasy world BA would communicate a random twenty minute delay to LNER (and presumably every other TOC in the Newcastle area?) and that would be lovely for all involved. However, in this case, it didn't happen.

Surely the main issue isn't that Newcastle ticket office didn't endorse travel via another route but that they failed miserably to issue the correct excess fare? Three members of staff between them couldn't get it right. Surely you can agree that is a problem whether or not some sort of ticket acceptance was or was not available? The other issues around ticket acceptance are very mcuh just chaff trying to distract from the fundamental issue as far as I can see.

Let's pretend for, instance, that there was no delay anywhere to any mode of transit I just decided that I wanted to go via Darlington rather than Hartlepool. It seems clear that the Newcastle ticket office in this scenario would still have gotten the excess wrong. You can see how this is a problem yes?

 

[transportphoto]

They send us messages when there is a traffic jam or some other incident anywhere in the network.

We actually even get a message about a fare dodger in Doncaster hopping on and off trains, as an example.

You don't have to believe me, it doesn't change the fact it is true.

The source of the information triggering these messages? 99% of the time will be an LNER colleague calling control to tell them about it. Control then send a message out via the messaging software.

I do not buy your argument that British Airways will call LNER (or any other random railway operator) about any form of delay.

Rail operators today have put messages out about Heathrow - this will have been done at their own discretion after reading about it in the news.

 

[Ziggiesden]

The source of the information triggering these messages? 99% of the time will be an LNER colleague calling control to tell them about it. Control then send a message out via the messaging software.

I do not buy your argument that British Airways will call LNER (or any other random railway operator) about any form of delay.

Rail operators today have put messages out about Heathrow - this will have been done at their own discretion after reading about it in the news.

We deal with Edinburgh Airport and the Trams - we have ticket acceptance to Edinburgh Park on the Trams when we have an outage and many bus operators throught Scotlland. Conversely, we will allow Tram tickets on our services too.

I admit, I too will allow travel, depending on what I hear on the news as I utilse precedent in making the decision as to what I will and will not allow.

Okay so lets just agree that in some fantasy world BA would communicate a random twenty minute delay to LNER (and presumably every other TOC in the Newcastle area?) and that would be lovely for all involved. However, in this case, it didn't happen.

Surely the main issue isn't that Newcastle ticket office didn't endorse travel via another route but that they failed miserably to issue the correct excess fare? Three members of staff between them couldn't get it right. Surely you can agree that is a problem whether or not some sort of ticket acceptance was or was not available? The other issues around ticket acceptance are very mcuh just chaff trying to distract from the fundamental issue as far as I can see.

Let's pretend for, instance, that there was no delay anywhere to any mode of transit I just decided that I wanted to go via Darlington rather than Hartlepool. It seems clear that the Newcastle ticket office in this scenario would still have gotten the excess wrong. You can see how this is a problem yes?

Oh yes, there was a problem - the person involved has told me he was awaiting a refund as I was interested in the case. it is a weird one as it seems it would be a common excess to me. A training issue perhaps. The point I'm trying to make is the issue would not have occured if there had been a message to allow discretion.

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh yes, there was a problem - the person involved has told me he was awaiting a refund as I was interested in the case.

To be clear, I am the person involved, no-one else on this Forum is involved in the case in question.

it is a weird one as it seems it would be a common excess to me. A training issue perhaps. The point I'm trying to make is the issue would not have occured if there had been a message to allow discretion.

I see, well I admire your optimism that BA would communicate such matters but I still find it highly unlikely. But at least we are able to agree that clearly there was a training issue at Newcastle ticket office.

It remains a shame that such excesses are not available online or via TVM. I wouldn't be out of pocket and wasting my time contacting LNER customer services in that case.

 

[talldave]

We deal with Edinburgh Airport and the Trams - we have ticket acceptance to Edinburgh Park on the Trams when we have an outage and many bus operators throught Scotlland. Conversely, we will allow Tram tickets on our services too.

I admit, I too will allow travel, depending on what I hear on the news as I utilse precedent in making the decision as to what I will and will not allow.


Oh yes, there was a problem - the person involved has told me he was awaiting a refund as I was interested in the case. it is a weird one as it seems it would be a common excess to me. A training issue perhaps. The point I'm trying to make is the issue would not have occured if there had been a message to allow discretion.

Did you by any chance write that Two Ronnies sketch based on answering the question before? Either you're on drugs or I am because I'm struggling to work out where the bloke awaiting a refund appeared from?

All I see is obfuscation to avoid answering @ainsworth74's question about whether it's a problem that 3 members of staff in a ticket office couldn't do something quite basic that a customer asked for?

 

[AlterEgo]

The source of the information triggering these messages? 99% of the time will be an LNER colleague calling control to tell them about it. Control then send a message out via the messaging software.

I do not buy your argument that British Airways will call LNER (or any other random railway operator) about any form of delay.

Rail operators today have put messages out about Heathrow - this will have been done at their own discretion after reading about it in the news.

This, basically. I’ve worked in Control and there’s no way one minor delay about a jet bridge at a provincial airport, which would affect at best a handful of passengers would ever be picked up. Well in the realms of “didn’t happen”.

Did you by any chance write that Two Ronnies sketch based on answering the question before? Either you're on drugs or I am because I'm struggling to work out where the bloke awaiting a refund appeared from?

All I see is obfuscation to avoid answering @ainsworth74's question about whether it's a problem that 3 members of staff in a ticket office couldn't do something quite basic that a customer asked for?

Anything to avoid confronting the reality that ticket offices are more of a hindrance than a benefit to a great many customers!

 

[transportphoto]

I admit, I too will allow travel, depending on what I hear on the news as I utilse precedent in making the decision as to what I will and will not allow.

As a booking office clerk, do you have such discretion to allow travel? Surely ticket acceptance arrangement lay largely with Control (and on an individual basis, the guard.) I’m guessing you’ve some discretion to issue an authority to travel within your own TOC?

This is somewhat off topic from @ainsworth74’s problem - I very much disagree with your comment here:

The point I'm trying to make is the issue would not have occured if there had been a message to allow discretion.

This scenario is exactly what a change of route excess is for. The industry shouldn’t bend over backwards for the smallest of inconveniences elsewhere.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed; the issue here is simply that the customer wanted to obtain a change of route excess and were overcharged at the ticket office.

Several staff were involved and all got it wrong, albeit for different reasons!

And this outcome is not at all uncommon when attempting to obtain excess fares from ticket offices. Indeed my own experiences have been that ticket offices have got it wrong more often than they got it right.

 

[ainsworth74]

This scenario is exactly what a change of route excess is for. The industry shouldn’t bend over backwards for the smallest of inconveniences elsewhere.

Indeed, until LNER cocked up my simple request, I had been idly thinking about sending a plaintive email to Newcastle airport along the lines "This was a bit of a rubbish end to my holiday and left me and mum a few quid out of pocket, would you maybe think about repaying us?" seeing as it was their failing but honestly I was probably just not going to bother as it was, at the end of the day, a couple of quid.

Then Newcastle ticket office got involved...

 

[ainsworth74]

Sigh...

I have investigated the policy on changing tickets and as you had a return ticket the entire ticket had to be changed. We are unable to only change one leg of the ticket. The lowest costing any permitted route ticket is £19.15. As your original ticket was £16.65 you should have been charged £2.50 per ticket and not £5.25 per ticket.

The reader will recall that LNER as a business has a revenue of north of £800m per year but is happy to waste everyone's time arguing over £2.50. I'm sure that this is a valuable use of time and resources.

 

[Hadders]

Sigh...



The reader will recall that LNER as a business has a revenue of north of £800m per year but is happy to waste everyone's time arguing over £2.50. I'm sure that this is a valuable use of time and resources.

I'd ask them to have another go at answering the question, and suggest they read the excess fares procedure on the internal knowledgebase before they do so!

 

[transportphoto]

I'd ask them to have another go at answering the question, and suggest they read the excess fares procedure on the internal knowledgebase before they do so!

Failing this, I feel a letter of deadlock is the next stage…

 

[ainsworth74]

Yep that's where I've gone in my reply!

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'd ask them to have another go at answering the question, and suggest they read the excess fares procedure on the internal knowledgebase before they do so!

Or just...make sure they choose the correct options on their Ticket Issuing System and it'll do it correctly.

 

[ainsworth74]

So just to wrap this one up, I quoted the IKB at them and the response I got asked me where I'd found that information as "as it is not on the National Rail website for the terms and conditions for Anytime Short Return tickets or within the National Rail Conditions of Travel". I replied with a link to the relevant page of IKB and there was radio silence for a few more days before finally a reply came back conceding and offering to refund the full £8 as I had originally requested. That refund finally arrived last night a week later (as two transfers, one for £5.50 and one for £2.50).

As for the poor service itself:

As a business we pride ourselves on the level of service we offer and, on this occasion, we have clearly not achieved this. Please accept my sincere apologies and I would like to assure you that your comments will be passed to the appropriate managers of each department involved in your case, to ensure action is taken, and lessons are learned, to prevent a similar issue from occurring in the future.

I don't hold out much hope for actual improvements in the quality of training that the staff receive...

They usually talk to each other - integrated transport. They send us messages when there is a traffic jam or some other incident anywhere in the network. We will do favours for delayed passengers - say they have missed the 16:39 Inverness - we will put them on one of ours with an authority to travel even when no ticket acceptance has been agreed.

You don't have to believe me, it doesn't change the fact it is true.

Something else you need to consider. Why should one plane load of people, a percentage of which will use Rail (probably), get less consideration than a whole airport such as Heathrow?

It is relevant because of the "domino effect" and consideration in giving good service. Although the delay was minor (20 minutes - had this once myself - it took an hour as they had to wait for replacement equipment) it can badly affect those who have cut it a bit fine with a combination of tickets that are train company specific.

The point I'm trying to make is the issue would not have occured if there had been a message to allow discretion.

Just to follow up on the BA communicating delays side of things, I did make a separate enquiry to LNER about whether they'd ever been asked to agree ticket acceptance by BA and they were unable to find any instance of such a request since January 2024 and their Head of Service Delivery to the best of their knowledge was not aware of any such requests in that time period. So I think we can hopefully put to bed the idea that BA are contacting TOCs to arrange ticket acceptance.

LNER (and other TOCs) I'm sure will help out on occasion when things have gone wrong but it's not something that BA are leading on themselves. Therefore, as I'm sure is no surprise to anyone, it's not particularly odd that they didn't mention a 20 minute delay in unloading passengers at Newcastle Airport...

 

[Hadders]

Wow. It's not as if Newcastle is a rural backwater (not that it would make it right), it's one of the largest stations in the country. I know excesses aren't that common but for LNER to suggest they don't even know about the internal knowledgebase is breathtaking.

 

[Red Rover]

To x/s on this I’d go into manual fares and x/s that way and butcher it, no easy way around, x/s nowadays is a lot harder than it used to be.

 

[ainsworth74]

To x/s on this I’d go into manual fares and x/s that way and butcher it, no easy way around, x/s nowadays is a lot harder than it used to be.

The interesting thing was that the gentleman that seemed to know how to use the ticket issuing system made it seem, to the layman, like it was quite an easy process to actually issue the required excess.

It was everything that went on around it that was the problem!

 

[Red Rover]

Star hasn’t got it programmed into like aptis, there’s far less ease when doing x/s, it’s the same with many things like season ticket changeovers, refunds etc etc.
It’s actually harder and slower than it used to be.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Star hasn’t got it programmed into like aptis, there’s far less ease when doing x/s, it’s the same with many things like season ticket changeovers, refunds etc etc.
It’s actually harder and slower than it used to be.

LNER use Worldline @station (aka Tribute X at West Midlands Trains stations) at their Travel Centres, which is essentially an evolution of Avantix Mobile but running on an Android Tablet. Issuing an Excess is broadly a three step process:

• Find the ticket the customer already holds and choose "Calculate Excess"
• Choose the type of Excess, leg(s) it should apply to and enter the ticket number
• Find the ticket you want to excess to and choose "Apply Excess"

At that point, you can add any applicable supplements, such as a change of journey fee if changing an Advance ticket, then take payment.