Next fastest train from Clapham Junction to Southampton Central is a Southern service?!

[miklcct]

A Southern train is more than an hour slower than a direct SWR train to Southampton. Isn't it always faster to wait for an SWR fast train from platform 9 instead of taking a Southern train (note that the board still shows SWR from platform 9 to Portsmouth).

 

[station_road]

Have you checked the timetable? The next SWR service to Southampton that calls at Clapham Junction is at 1912, there may be faster services than the Southern one if you change but that is the next fastest direct train (which is what those screens show)

 

[Class800]

But if changing is faster especially by a long way it is misleading, would be better to just set it to 'Please enquire'

 

[Edsmith]

But if changing is faster especially by a long way it is misleading, would be better to just set it to 'Please enquire'

I agree, it would be much quicker on SWR even if it meant changing twice

 

[_toommm_]

But if changing is faster especially by a long way it is misleading, would be better to just set it to 'Please enquire'

‘Train’ of course being singular, so it’ll show the bext fastest direct train. Journey planners will show the next fastest journey, which can involve multiple trains.

The next direct service from Clapham to Southampton operated by SWR isn’t until 19:12.

 

[Class800]

‘Train’ of course being singular, so it’ll show the bext fastest direct train. Journey planners will show the next fastest journey, which can involve multiple trains.

The next direct service from Clapham to Southampton operated by SWR isn’t until 19:12.

But it's not helpful

 

[JonathanH]

But it's not helpful

It really depends on what the purpose is of showing the next direct train. Anyone actually going to Southampton may well know that the train they have to catch is the one to Woking for a connection. The purpose of the display is then to indicate which platform their train goes from. It seems unlikely that someone turns up just wanting the next train to Southampton as it is the kind of distance where someone is going to have planned their journey in advance.

 

[swt_passenger]

It really depends on what the purpose is of showing the next direct train. Anyone actually going to Southampton may well know that the train they have to catch is the one to Woking for a connection. The purpose of the display is then to indicate which platform their train goes from. It seems unlikely that someone turns up just wanting the next train to Southampton as it is the kind of distance where someone is going to have planned their journey in advance.

Is that a polite way of saying it’s the sort of trivial problem the OP goes round looking for, but that those of us who’ve used the line for 40 years have managed to get over?

 

[miklcct]

But it's not helpful

It is truly misleading if someone, apart from those holding Southern-only tickets, truly wants to go to Southampton and directed to the Southern train which makes a long detour in Sussex before going to Southampton without realising that SWR offers a much faster service along the main line by taking the first train at platform 9, changing where necessary.

 

[Edsmith]

It really depends on what the purpose is of showing the next direct train. Anyone actually going to Southampton may well know that the train they have to catch is the one to Woking for a connection. The purpose of the display is then to indicate which platform their train goes from. It seems unlikely that someone turns up just wanting the next train to Southampton as it is the kind of distance where someone is going to have planned their journey in advance.

If you had never travelled that way before you would just get on the Southern service from platform 13 when you could have done the same journey in about half the time on SWR with a change of train.

 

[JonathanH]

If you had never travelled that way before you would just get on the Southern service from platform 13 when you could have done the same journey in about half the time on SWR with a change of train.

I think the point I am making is that people just wouldn't do that. It isn't 'half the time' either, other than between the 1627 and 1642 alternatives.

While it is difficult for me to put myself in the position of someone never having travelled from Clapham Junction to Southampton, do you really think people who are nervous about train travel turn up at Clapham Junction in the evening peak having done no research at all about their journey, see a display saying there is a train to Southampton they weren't expecting, and catch it, having not listened to the station announcements about the number of stops? They are more likely to know that the train they are booked on involves a change and be looking out for the train to Woking they need to catch.

Passengers who don't use railways often, over that sort of distance, tend to fall into two groups:
* those that look up train times on a phone app
* those they carry around the train times for their planned schedule written down on the back of an envelope

Either way, they know the train they are expecting to catch, and might even have seen that the Southern service is slower.

The connections from Clapham Junction in the evening peak for Southampton appear to be
https://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/serv...0522/1600/dep?avd=London_Waterloo#outwardJump
1612 -> 1722 direct
1627 -> 1743 change Basingstoke
1642 -> 1903 Southern
1657 -> 1818 change Basingstoke
1702 -> 1843 change Woking and Winchester
1742 -> 2003 Southern
1802 -> 1947 change Woking and Winchester
1842 -> 2103 Southern
1912 -> 2021 direct

Even if they take the Southern service, they still get to Southampton eventually. The difference in arrival time between the 1742 and 1802 connections isn't really so great in any case, and after 1742, the 1912 is shown.

 

[miklcct]

I think the point I am making is that people just wouldn't do that. It isn't 'half the time' either, other than between the 1627 and 1642 alternatives.

While it is difficult for me to put myself in the position of someone never having travelled from Clapham Junction to Southampton, do you really think people who are nervous about train travel turn up at Clapham Junction in the evening peak having done no research at all about their journey, see a display saying there is a train to Southampton they weren't expecting, and catch it, having not listened to the station announcements about the number of stops? They are more likely to know that the train they are booked on involves a change and be looking out for the train to Woking they need to catch.

Passengers who don't use railways often, over that sort of distance, tend to fall into two groups:
* those that look up train times on a phone app
* those they carry around the train times for their planned schedule written down on the back of an envelope

Either way, they know the train they are expecting to catch, and might even have seen that the Southern service is slower.

The connections from Clapham Junction in the evening peak for Southampton appear to be
https://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/serv...0522/1600/dep?avd=London_Waterloo#outwardJump
1612 -> 1722 direct
1627 -> 1743 change Basingstoke
1642 -> 1903 Southern
1657 -> 1818 change Basingstoke
1702 -> 1843 change Woking and Winchester
1742 -> 2003 Southern
1802 -> 1947 change Woking and Winchester
1842 -> 2103 Southern
1912 -> 2021 direct

Even if they take the Southern service, they still get to Southampton eventually. The difference in arrival time between the 1742 and 1802 connections isn't really so great in any case, and after 1742, the 1912 is shown.

It seems that after 1642 the board will display 1742, right? If so it is a massive difference if one lets go the 1657 from platform 9 as a result!

 

[Nicholas43]

It really depends on what the purpose is of showing the next direct train.

Indeed. A sensible purpose, I think, would be to show people who haven't looked up anything, and might struggle to do so, which platform to go to if they are travelling to any of the listed destinations, and when their train should depart. So, at Clapham Junction, I wouldn't include Southampton among the destinations, because a through train is likely to be a poor choice.
By the way, "next fastest train'" is clumsy. Evokes the (pedantic, maybe) response "I don't want the next-fastest train, I want the actual-fastest train."

 

[MontyP]

It really depends on what the purpose is of showing the next direct train. Anyone actually going to Southampton may well know that the train they have to catch is the one to Woking for a connection. The purpose of the display is then to indicate which platform their train goes from. It seems unlikely that someone turns up just wanting the next train to Southampton as it is the kind of distance where someone is going to have planned their journey in advance.

So if anyone actually going to Southampton plans their journey in advance, why do they show Southampton (and other medium-distance destinations such as Portsmouth and Worthing) on the "Next Fastest Trains" list? Why not remove these from the list? Is there a significant turn up and go market for those destinations at Clapham J? I assume that there would be such a market at London terminals.

 

[miklcct]

So if anyone actually going to Southampton plans their journey in advance, why do they show Southampton (and other medium-distance destinations such as Portsmouth and Worthing) on the "Next Fastest Trains" list? Why not remove these from the list? Is there a significant turn up and go market for those destinations at Clapham J? I assume that there would be such a market at London terminals.

I think these should be removed from the list. The only useful destinations are the destinations where changing won't be much faster than a direct train, such as Woking.

Travelling to Winchester or beyond, given that a significant portion of fast trains on weekdays don't stop at Clapham Junction, the sensible way is to take a fast train from platform 9 to Woking or Basingstoke and change as appropriate, which is what the SWR official timetable shows.

 

[Starmill]

Travelling to Winchester or beyond, given that a significant portion of fast trains on weekdays don't stop at Clapham Junction, the sensible way is to take a fast train from platform 9 to Woking or Basingstoke and change as appropriate, which is what the SWR official timetable shows.

There are frequent direct services though? There aren't any direct fast services between 1612 and 1912 Monday - Friday, but there are essentially all of the rest of the time.

 

[miklcct]

There are frequent direct services though? There aren't any direct fast services between 1612 and 1912 Monday - Friday, but there are essentially all of the rest of the time.

Direct service normally runs once per hour, with the second being a change at Woking, and the third in every two hours being a change at Basingstoke to the CrossCountry service.

 

[The exile]

The difficulty is that every individual has a different “inconvenience tolerance” as to how many minutes saved is worth changing for. What perhaps should be shown is some kind of note that makes it clear that “a quicker service is available by changing en route - please enquire for details”.

 

[3141]

I think this is somewhat similar to the situation at, for example, Portsmouth Harbour, where the train to London Waterloo via Eastleigh isn't shown as destined for Waterloo, but shows Farnborough instead. In that case, apparently, experience has shown that enough people who want to go to London have in the past made the mistake of thinking that a train that used to be shown for Waterloo was the one they wanted, even if it also said "via Eastleigh", and got on that instead of the Portsmouth Direct Line. It would be sensible to to do something about the situation at Clapham Junction, so that there'd be no risk of someone what wants Southampton thinking that the "next fastest train" will get them there soonest, when in fact they'll arrive more quickly by changing at Woking or Basingstoke.

At Clapham Junction it may well be, as several posters have said, that a traveller bound for Southampton has looked up the details in advance. But what if they are delayed on their way to CJ, they arrive and check the screens to find out what platform their train goes from, and they see this "next fastest train" displayed? They quite possibly don't know that there's another route via Chichester etc. It will seem that the info they looked up beforehand perhaps wasn't entirely right. They don't want to miss the "fastest train", so they'd better get this one rather than make enquiries. At the very least, to someone unfamiliar with the routes and timetables, this display is potentially confusing.

The sensible and most helpful thing would be not to show the 16.42 Southern service, but to show instead the next fast train to Woking or Basingstoke, as appropriate, with advice to change there for the train which will get you to Southampton quickest.

 

[dastocks]

The sensible and most helpful thing would be not to show the 16.42 Southern service, but to show instead the next fast train to Woking or Basingstoke, as appropriate, with advice to change there for the train which will get you to Southampton quickest.

The problem with that approach is that the 99.5% of passengers who need to get to just about anywhere else in southern England won't have access to any information about how to do it because there is only enough space on the information screen to tell them about their various options for getting to Southampton.

At Clapham Junction it may well be, as several posters have said, that a traveller bound for Southampton has looked up the details in advance.

In which case they will know that there are no trains on the direct route to Southampton calling at CLJ at the time of day they are travelling so they need to change somewhere and, consequently, they should look for the 'next fastest' train to that destination.

So if anyone actually going to Southampton plans their journey in advance, why do they show Southampton (and other medium-distance destinations such as Portsmouth and Worthing) on the "Next Fastest Trains" list? Why not remove these from the list? Is there a significant turn up and go market for those destinations at Clapham J?

Destinations to Portsmouth/Southampton via Three Bridges are popular because the fares are considerably cheaper (especially with railcard discounts) than via Woking. It's definitely worth showing these trains on information screens at places like Clapham Junction.

 

[Starmill]

Direct service normally runs once per hour, with the second being a change at Woking, and the third in every two hours being a change at Basingstoke to the CrossCountry service.

So as I say, there's a frequent direct service. Which is what these boards are intended to show!

 

[Agent_Squash]

The board shows the next fastest direct train that calls from Clapham.

I don't see the problem really - most people just want to get where they're going, and anyone who wants to get their quickly will have done their research.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The board shows the next fastest direct train that calls from Clapham.

I don't see the problem really - most people just want to get where they're going, and anyone who wants to get their quickly will have done their research.

Why not just show both routes? Southampton Ctl (via Chichester) and Southampton Ctl (via Winchester)?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why not just show both routes? Southampton Ctl (via Chichester) and Southampton Ctl (via Winchester)?

“Southern” or “SWR” is already implying that. (Unless someone is being intentionally awkward.)

 

[DelW]

No one seems to have mentioned that the screen in the photo shows only one SWR service (to Portsmouth & Southsea) in among a swathe of small villages served by Southern (e.g. Nutbourne, Southbourne and Warblington). There's no sign of major SWR destinations like Woking, Guildford, Weymouth, Exeter, Reading, or Windsor. This leads me to suspect that this display is actually located in the Southern side of Clapham Junction, and that there may be similar screens on the South-Western side showing trains to those main SWR destinations.

If that's the case, anyone with enough nous to realise that Southampton is mainly served by SWR would surely go to that part of the station - where there would be screens showing SWR's more appropriate services.

 

[Edsmith]

The board shows the next fastest direct train that calls from Clapham.

I don't see the problem really - most people just want to get where they're going, and anyone who wants to get their quickly will have done their research.

Most people want to get there ASAP and don't particularly want a tour of West Sussex, what research are they supposed to do?

 

[ComUtoR]

Most people want to get there ASAP and don't particularly want a tour of West Sussex, what research are they supposed to do?

"Most" people want to get there on time, as booked.

"Most" people want to get there for a specific time.

'Most" people want to get there with little fuss and inconvenience.


There is an easy solution. Just remove the board entirely.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There is an easy solution. Just remove the board entirely.

Not sure how that really helps.

Be surely better to show both the "via Chichester" and "via Winchester" fastest train timings for Southampton Central, and a suitable message (if there's nothing direct on the latter route anytime soon).

And if that means dropping some of the semi-rural Sussex (West Coastway) destinations from the display screens, then so be it.

 

[DelW]

Most people want to get there ASAP and don't particularly want a tour of West Sussex, what research are they supposed to do?

The same way most people plan journeys - e.g. use the NR or other online planner, Google maps, ring the NR advice line, go to a ticket office or information desk, ask a friend or relative who knows the railway network. Anything other than going to a station and expecting every journey to be displayed on the screens.

 

[TheEdge]

“Southern” or “SWR” is already implying that. (Unless someone is being intentionally awkward.)

And therein lies the true answer here...