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Next fastest train from Clapham Junction to Southampton Central is a Southern service?!

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Snow1964

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It seems unlikely that someone turns up just wanting the next train to Southampton as it is the kind of distance where someone is going to have planned their journey in advance.

If people have planned the journey in advance, then not much point in a next fastest sign to Southampton, because they will be looking for a specific train, or fastest train to a connection.

Would be better if it said change at Woking (or whatever station) rather than offering a through train via very slow routing
 
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Edsmith

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The same way most people plan journeys - e.g. use the NR or other online planner, Google maps, ring the NR advice line, go to a ticket office or information desk, ask a friend or relative who knows the railway network. Anything other than going to a station and expecting every journey to be displayed on the screens.
Surely most people just go to the station and expect to be provided with accurate information for a fairly run of the mill journey like Clapham Junction to Southampton?

"Most" people want to get there on time, as booked.

"Most" people want to get there for a specific time.

'Most" people want to get there with little fuss and inconvenience.


There is an easy solution. Just remove the board entirely.
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water, the rest of the information on the board is probably fine.
 

DelW

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Surely most people just go to the station and expect to be provided with accurate information for a fairly run of the mill journey like Clapham Junction to Southampton?
I'm sure there are places at Clapham Junction where you can get information about options for going to Southampton, just not on those particular screens. (As per my post #25, I suspect they're located in the Southern not South-Western part of CLJ.)
 

Agent_Squash

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And if that means dropping some of the semi-rural Sussex (West Coastway) destinations from the display screens, then so be it.

Why should other destinations suffer because of what is a pedantic technicality?
 

Aljanah

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Anyone travelling ANYWHERE that needs to make a change to get there is not solely relying on the usual departure board information. A journey that requires 2 changes is not really a simple journey anymore, and how many long distance journeys are unplanned and on a whim? If the quickest through journey happens to be an unusual route then that's life at the end of the day.
 

30907

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No one seems to have mentioned that the screen in the photo shows only one SWR service (to Portsmouth & Southsea) in among a swathe of small villages served by Southern (e.g. Nutbourne, Southbourne and Warblington). There's no sign of major SWR destinations like Woking, Guildford, Weymouth, Exeter, Reading, or Windsor. This leads me to suspect that this display is actually located in the Southern side of Clapham Junction, and that there may be similar screens on the South-Western side showing trains to those main SWR destinations.
Well spotted!
Portsmouth only shows SWT because there's nothing "better" - ie Southern!

Given the layout of Clapham Jn, anywhere other than the entrance to P13 it would be inappropriate to say the least.

I wonder if the OP could tell us where it is? The absence of suburban destinations makes me think I know the answer, but it rather spoils the story.
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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I just think all of this can be resolved by changing "Next fastest train" to "Next direct train"
Then, it's very clear that all options being listed are the next train where you don't have to change.
Anyone in a particular hurry can then check if changing would be faster, if they so wish.
 

Kite159

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I just think all of this can be resolved by changing "Next fastest train" to "Next direct train"
Then, it's very clear that all options being listed are the next train where you don't have to change.
Anyone in a particular hurry can then check if changing would be faster, if they so wish.
Until you get someone boarding the Woking/Basingstoke stopper as the screen said it was the next direct train to Woking/Basingstoke
 

Craig1122

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Most people saying they can't see any issues with this seem to be assuming the general public have the same intimate knowledge of the network as the average rail enthusiast!

Showing the operator isn't much help to a lot of people 'Well you're all British Rail' and similar comments apply...
 

TUC

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Yet again , I get the feeling that some rail enthusiasts really don't get that many people don't want complex journeys with multiple changes. They just want to know 'when is the next train I can get from A to B which I can get on, and switch off until I get there?'
 

The exile

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It shouldn’t be beyond the capability of a computer to add an asterisk (or some other symbol) after the time which is explained at the bottom of the board as meaning “an earlier arrival is possible by changing trains - please enquire”. Filter it to only show when the saving is more than nominal and people at least can’t say “well, no one warned me”.
 

hermit

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I think this is somewhat similar to the situation at, for example, Portsmouth Harbour, where the train to London Waterloo via Eastleigh isn't shown as destined for Waterloo, but shows Farnborough instead. In that case, apparently, experience has shown that enough people who want to go to London have in the past made the mistake of thinking that a train that used to be shown for Waterloo was the one they wanted, even if it also said "via Eastleigh", and got on that instead of the Portsmouth Direct Line. It would be sensible to to do something about the situation at Clapham Junction, so that there'd be no risk of someone what wants Southampton thinking that the "next fastest train" will get them there soonest, when in fact they'll arrive more quickly by changing at Woking or Basingstoke.

At Clapham Junction it may well be, as several posters have said, that a traveller bound for Southampton has looked up the details in advance. But what if they are delayed on their way to CJ, they arrive and check the screens to find out what platform their train goes from, and they see this "next fastest train" displayed? They quite possibly don't know that there's another route via Chichester etc. It will seem that the info they looked up beforehand perhaps wasn't entirely right. They don't want to miss the "fastest train", so they'd better get this one rather than make enquiries. At the very least, to someone unfamiliar with the routes and timetables, this display is potentially confusing.

The sensible and most helpful thing would be not to show the 16.42 Southern service, but to show instead the next fast train to Woking or Basingstoke, as appropriate, with advice to change there for the train which will get you to Southampton quickest.

I don’t think it’s the case that Portsmouth Harbour displays show the Waterloo via Eastleigh trains as destination Farnborough - unless there’s been a recent change which I haven’t noticed, they show the destination as London Waterloo via Basingstoke. So do the platform announcements. I’ve never seen a Farnborough destination.

This is in any case not a comparable case to the one raised by the OP as the time penalty from taking this route is small compared with taking a Southern Arun Valley train or a Portsmouth Direct Line stopper, and not that great even compared with a Direct Line fast.
 

Edsmith

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Yet again , I get the feeling that some rail enthusiasts really don't get that many people don't want complex journeys with multiple changes. They just want to know 'when is the next train I can get from A to B which I can get on, and switch off until I get there?'
I think you don't get it, if there is a direct service taking the scenic route or a faster journey is available by changing at Woking and Basingstoke most will probably prefer the latter. A member of staff will be able to explain the options if they ask.
 

JonathanH

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Most people saying they can't see any issues with this seem to be assuming the general public have the same intimate knowledge of the network as the average rail enthusiast!
Most people saying there is an issue seem to think that anyone who isn't a rail enthusiast has no knowledge or ability to find out anything about the rail network which isn't the case either.
 

PeterC

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I can see both sides of the arguement here but how much "research" do you expect a non-enthusiast to carry out? Driving takes no more than punching the destination into the satnav and that is the competition.
 

JonathanH

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I can see both sides of the arguement here but how much "research" do you expect a non-enthusiast to carry out? Driving takes no more than punching the destination into the satnav and that is the competition.
Travelling by train takes no more than looking up the National Rail website (or Trainline or similar) and putting an origin and destination in then looking at the times.

Some people even use Google Maps for both car and train navigation.

People follow incorrect routeings on their SatNav as well.
 

dastocks

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I can see both sides of the argument here but how much "research" do you expect a non-enthusiast to carry out? Driving takes no more than punching the destination into the satnav and that is the competition.
If they purchased a ticket they will know that there are at least two routes and that one of them is a *lot* cheaper than the others, especially if they are using a railcard discount.
 

miklcct

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I don’t think it’s the case that Portsmouth Harbour displays show the Waterloo via Eastleigh trains as destination Farnborough - unless there’s been a recent change which I haven’t noticed, they show the destination as London Waterloo via Basingstoke. So do the platform announcements. I’ve never seen a Farnborough destination.

This is in any case not a comparable case to the one raised by the OP as the time penalty from taking this route is small compared with taking a Southern Arun Valley train or a Portsmouth Direct Line stopper, and not that great even compared with a Direct Line fast.
I've just noticed that at Southampton Central, it normally shows London Victoria but when the train is cancelled it shows Horsham instead.

This has caught me out when I intend to use that train to travel further to destinations such as Crawley, Gatwick Airport or Clapham Junction when it was not obvious that the train I wanted was cancelled.

What's the reason of that?
 

30907

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Well spotted!
Portsmouth only shows SWT because there's nothing "better" - ie Southern!

Given the layout of Clapham Jn, anywhere other than the entrance to P13 it would be inappropriate to say the least.

I wonder if the OP could tell us where it is? The absence of suburban destinations makes me think I know the answer, but it rather spoils the story.
@miklcct do you wish to enlighten us?
 

cornishjohn

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I think we are only being given half the story here. There is a gap in the through SWR services around this time.

What I would like to know, is what is displayed earlier in the day, after the XX:11 direct SWR service has left and before the XX:27 connection has left?

Does the display tell us to wait for the following (XX+1):11 service or are we shown the earlier connection?
 

Taunton

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I think we are only being given half the story here. There is a gap in the through SWR services around this time.
The "quickest" way from Clapham in the evening peak (and certainly more seat-assured) on the SW main is often to go up to Waterloo and come back down again!

Regarding getting all the times in advance, that is also a rail-centric approach. There are indeed many who just turn up at the station for "the next one", increasingly nowadays as frequencies increase over what there was a generation ago. I even now find myself doing so at the end of a business day returning to London from places as far away as Leeds. Who knows how long the taxi will take to come at the office, or to then get to the station? But I know the trains are twice an hour or better.
 

Wolfie

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It is truly misleading if someone, apart from those holding Southern-only tickets, truly wants to go to Southampton and directed to the Southern train which makes a long detour in Sussex before going to Southampton without realising that SWR offers a much faster service along the main line by taking the first train at platform 9, changing where necessary.
Those boards provide a summary and there are multiple other sources of information available. Just how big would they have to be to provide everything that you want? This is not HK, the system is much more complex and you won't always be spoonfed.

No one seems to have mentioned that the screen in the photo shows only one SWR service (to Portsmouth & Southsea) in among a swathe of small villages served by Southern (e.g. Nutbourne, Southbourne and Warblington). There's no sign of major SWR destinations like Woking, Guildford, Weymouth, Exeter, Reading, or Windsor. This leads me to suspect that this display is actually located in the Southern side of Clapham Junction, and that there may be similar screens on the South-Western side showing trains to those main SWR destinations.

If that's the case, anyone with enough nous to realise that Southampton is mainly served by SWR would surely go to that part of the station - where there would be screens showing SWR's more appropriate services.
A very good point.
 

Edsmith

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I can see both sides of the arguement here but how much "research" do you expect a non-enthusiast to carry out? Driving takes no more than punching the destination into the satnav and that is the competition.
Exactly and I wouldn't expect a non rail enthusiast to do any research for a run of the mill journey like this. As someone else said the best option is probably to go to Waterloo and get the Southampton train which doesn't stop at Clapham Junction but most ordinary passengers wouldn't know that.

Those boards provide a summary and there are multiple other sources of information available. Just how big would they have to be to provide everything that you want? This is not HK, the system is much more complex and you won't always be spoonfed.


A very good point.
Just put please enquire next to Southampton.

When you say spoon-fed do you mean given the correct information?
 

BRX

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I agree with the OP.

I'm a regular rail traveller, use Clapham Junction quite often, and am fairly familiar with the SWR routes and this could catch me out.

For journeys that have a relatively frequent service, I don't always plan the exact trains in advance. Also, things can go wrong, and you might be in a situation of arriving at Clapham Junction late perhaps having missed your intended train, and just wanting to know the next train to your destination. In that scenario, I might well look at the board, rather than getting my phone out and using a journey planner, because it's quicker, and if the board tells me the "next fastest train" is from platform X in three minutes, I might well leg it to that platform. I'm not sure I'd even notice whether it says "Southern" or SWR" (why does that need to be on the board at all, by the way?) because that's not what I'm interested in at that moment.

Possibly, when I got to the platform I'd notice that it was a southern train and think, wait a minute, shouldn't this be SWR. But only because I'm a rail enthusiast who notices such things.

The board says "next fastest train" and most people would reasonably interpret this as telling you the train you should get if you want to get to the destination as quickly as possible. But that's not what it then shows. It should say "please enquire".

If the board was a little wider, I'd say it would be more useful to passengers to get rid of the TOC name, and in its place instead show either "direct" or "change necessary".
 

miklcct

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Well spotted!
Portsmouth only shows SWT because there's nothing "better" - ie Southern!

Given the layout of Clapham Jn, anywhere other than the entrance to P13 it would be inappropriate to say the least.

I wonder if the OP could tell us where it is? The absence of suburban destinations makes me think I know the answer, but it rather spoils the story.
This is taken in the Southern part of the station, but there are also equivalent boards on the footbridge which shows the same information for more destinations as well.
 

cjmillsnun

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I'm sure there are places at Clapham Junction where you can get information about options for going to Southampton, just not on those particular screens. (As per my post #25, I suspect they're located in the Southern not South-Western part of CLJ.)
That shouldn’t make a difference.
 

BRX

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No one seems to have mentioned that the screen in the photo shows only one SWR service (to Portsmouth & Southsea) in among a swathe of small villages served by Southern (e.g. Nutbourne, Southbourne and Warblington). There's no sign of major SWR destinations like Woking, Guildford, Weymouth, Exeter, Reading, or Windsor. This leads me to suspect that this display is actually located in the Southern side of Clapham Junction, and that there may be similar screens on the South-Western side showing trains to those main SWR destinations.

If that's the case, anyone with enough nous to realise that Southampton is mainly served by SWR would surely go to that part of the station - where there would be screens showing SWR's more appropriate services.

I'm not sure why Woking or Guildford aren't there - but that's not how Clapham junction is split - the north "side" is Overground and SWR, while the south "side" is a mixture of Southern and SWR.

(Not sure what you mean by "southern side" and "south western side")
 

Mcr Warrior

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(Not sure what you mean by "southern side" and "south western side")
In context, "Southern side" is probably intended to mean the side of the station normally used by Southern train services, i.e. platforms 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17.

"South Western side" being the remainder of the various platforms at Clapham Junction, presumably. Not quite sure where that leaves platforms 1 and 2.
 

BRX

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In context, "Southern side" is probably intended to mean the side of the station normally used by Southern train services, i.e. platforms 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17.

"South Western side" being the remainder of the various platforms at Clapham Junction, presumably. Not quite sure where that leaves platforms 1 and 2.
Usually when CJ is described as having two "sides" it means the two quite separate bunches of platforms - the smaller bunch with the tracks heading west towards Putney, and the larger bunch with tracks heading south.
 
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