Nifty use of Avantix?

[HowardGWR]

Just another thought. A few days ago I ordered a ticket (from SWT) for next weekend, but the online system did not offer me a posting, just a collection from the machine. I would have thought 10 days was plenty of time to post a ticket.

Can the avantix machine on the train key in my code for the ticket and print it? Say the machine is broken when I get to the station?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I wouldn't think it would as I don't think they're connected to any database or the internet, unless there is some sort of hidden function.

 

[Flamingo]

Short answer - no.

 

[plastictaffy]

Depending on how they're set up, they can print seat reservations, CrossCountry use them to sell food off the trolley, they can do quotes for season tickets of any valid length (but can't sell for longer than a week), they can sell rovers, do supplements to tickets, they have a calculator on them, you can sell special offer tickets like Chester Zoo addons and so on.

They can do them for more than a week, using the option "Season Enquiry" in the Tertiary menu, however TOC's won't allow us to sell them due the cut of Commision we'd get on them, and something to do with the Seasons Database or something.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seasons can be dated for the next day, too, but only if you use the same menu option, and it's after midday.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We only get taught the basics, ie ticket selection with railcards etc and how to do timetables and pairing of equipment, plus there is only so much we ca actually access on the things. They are well overdue replacement as they are incredibly bulky and at times incredibly dimwitted and slow, especially on a reboot mid shift (why does it always happen when on a busy train?!).

Yep, the little button that you have to drag it out of the printer to access, then it takes an AGE to reboot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You can also do Plusbus tickets on them, in a roundabout kind of way.

 

[HowardGWR]

Short answer - no.

Thanks very much Flamingo. I live 7 miles from the nearest station (AXM) so i will have to make a special trip to the station and back soon to convert this email into a ticket, unless I want to take the chance that the machine at the weekend is
1) working
2) does not have a queue composed of people like me who have either a) never used these things or b) so long ago used it that it's a new learning experience?

Not a very commercially friendly situation. Why don't they do what NS does and just let me print it out? I've just bought a ticket from Amsterdam to Trier online for a month's time and i can just print it out at home. It has one of these mobile squares thingys so I expect the guard can just flash something at it (or just read it if he wants).

Add edit
Why could they not just post it? Anyone know?

 

[Geeves]

An 'End of shift' printed doubly on top of itself makes me very sad working in the OTAP. Extra work!

They are definitely past it up in Northern land thats for sure. Generally a large stack of dead Avantix PDA's with another pile of broken printers at the end of my shifts. They have a very hard life so I guess its impressive they last as well as they do.

Any signs of their replacement on the horizon? I read through the posts but couldnt see any mention. The sooner the better!

 

[jon0844]

Why could they not just post it? Anyone know?

Don't know why you couldn't have it posted, but as for the terminals staff have on trains - they'd need new devices with an Internet connection.

Then they could issue tickets by first checking the tickets hadn't been collected, then printing them and notifying that they'd been collected.

Until then, there would be no safe way to do it without opening up all sorts of fraud.

 

[HowardGWR]

I bought and paid for my ticket online on 8th May abot 1800. It's for the 17th May. I cannot understand why it could not have been posted but I will write to SWT ands ask why and I will post the answer. To be honest, I was so taken aback I just completed the transaction and I wish I had not.

Just a supplementary, - if the machine is bust and the ticket office is open, (it will be on a Saturday morning) can I just complete the transaction there, or in fact do so even if the bl**dy thing *is* working and there's a queue?

 

[McBoo]

If the start of your journey is at a station that has a machine which you can collect your tickets at, then they won't give you an option to have them sent by post. This is because they expect you to get them when you arrive at the station, before you get on the train.

 

[HowardGWR]

If the start of your journey is at a station that has a machine which you can collect your tickets at, then they won't give you an option to have them sent by post. This is because they expect you to get them when you arrive at the station, before you get on the train.

Then why for the identical journey, which I am taking on the 31st May, which I booked online about two minutes before the one I mentioned above, did they post the tickets to me (already got them, there's the irony of it)?
Puzzled still but thanks for your reply.

 

[richw]

Just a supplementary, - if the machine is bust and the ticket office is open, (it will be on a Saturday morning) can I just complete the transaction there, or in fact do so even if the bl**dy thing *is* working and there's a queue?

I can't speak for SWT but FGW is luck of the drawer dependant on the station. Truro will issue tickets over the counter from collection, as on a couple of occasions I've been queuing at the TVM to collect tickets and the clerk has called me over and issued the tickets, however at another station which I Wont name the clerk refused point blank telling me it was impossible for him to issue the tickets and they could only be collected from TVM

So, yes it is possible but depends on the willingness of the clerk whether they will do it.

 

[tsr]

Just a supplementary, - if the machine is bust and the ticket office is open, (it will be on a Saturday morning) can I just complete the transaction there, or in fact do so even if the bl**dy thing *is* working and there's a queue?

You can certainly ask, but I'd only expect them to feel obliged to assist if the machine is not functioning, and at other times it's really likely to be entirely discretionary. I do very much appreciate that the ticket purchase/collection situation at Axminster can be frustrating.

 

[jon0844]

If the start of your journey is at a station that has a machine which you can collect your tickets at, then they won't give you an option to have them sent by post. This is because they expect you to get them when you arrive at the station, before you get on the train.

If I booked weeks in advance, I'd quite like to have them in my possession if I could. Especially if I ordered tickets with, say, plusBus and needed to use the ticket BEFORE I got to the station.

I can only imagine that some web booking engines would hide this option to save money, as otherwise delivery by post should be there for any purchases not made within a day or two of travel.

 

[Hyphen]

The East Coast site allows you to opt for first class postal delivery (for £1.00) when booking tickets, regardless of whether a capable TVM is available at the start of the journey.

Of course, it won't be offered if there isn't enough time between booking the ticket and the planned start of the journey - which the East Coast site agrees in HowardGWR's case isn't enough time. That said, EC do still offer Special Delivery on the tickets for (£6.40) for a journey next weekend.

 

[richw]

I believe Royal Mail state to allow 3-5 working days for 1st class post these days, so assuming they consider this when deciding cut off for tickets by post.

 

[sarahj]

Plusbuses are damm easy to do, I dont see how it would take a roundabout way, eg ticket screen, Brighton to Brighton plus bus, done. and fincra, for kids I just print a reciept for them, comes out with the adult tickets at the same time.

For me its anoying when it goes, printer discontected. You click, ok, do nothing, the non issue prints, then the normal ticket.

What is uber fustrating is its 3am, you want to go home and as far as the machine is concerned is there is no printer attached. You open it up, swap the batteries, nope, take the pda out and back in, nope. This goes on until i guess the machine senses its about to be thrown at the wall when, woahhh end of shift prints.

On sat I sold over 50 tickets, but my pile of auto non issues and jammed half printed tickets was just silly.

 

[plastictaffy]

Plusbuses are damm easy to do, I dont see how it would take a roundabout way, eg ticket screen, Brighton to Brighton plus bus, done. and fincra, for kids I just print a reciept for them, comes out with the adult tickets at the same time.

For me its anoying when it goes, printer discontected. You click, ok, do nothing, the non issue prints, then the normal ticket.

Everytime I need a plusbus, I always end up trying to do it as part of the main ticket. I forget that it has to be done separately. As in, I can sell a ticket from Northampton to Milton Keynes no problem. But if you put the first four letters of the station name (if you don't know the CRS code) it gives you the option of Plusbus there - and I invariably try to click that one. I tend to forget that you have to put the ticket in the shopping basket, then do the Plusbus separately. That's the way we were taught to do it, anyway. Is there an easier way?? That's what I meant by it being a roundabout way, faffing about with the shopping basket and that.

Also, I find it says "Printer Disconnected" right in the middle of trying to issue a weekly - and always just as the brakes go in for the next stop.

 

[HowardGWR]

I have to go to AXM tomorrow so I will ask at the ticket office, that could be fun. I have thought of trying out various scenarios online to see when the cutoff for posting is on SWT.

I had no idea it could vary in cost from one TOC to another. ISTM that ATOC needs to get its act well and truly in order. You just need one of those bar codes to be printed out at home, just like with airline check in (or as I reported, already available with Nederlandse Spoorwegen and presumably with DB, etc as well). All trains need to be wifi'd, at least for the staff, so that both customer and staff can enjoy a good and safe transaction experience.

Are the railways always behind everyone else?

 

[tsr]

Deleted

 

[HowardGWR]

OK, I tried it out with several choices (20th, 21st, 22nd May) and SWT appear to need 9 days notice to deliver one's ticket by 1st class post but it *is* for no extra charge. I suspect the weekend situation may influence that, if one is travelling on a Sunday, for instance. So the 20th was machine only or £6 for next day delivery, 21st was postable, as was of course the 22nd, both for no charge.

I suppose SWT has to be careful of dodgy delivery times and at least they don't charge when they are prepared to send the tickets by post. One up for them then.

I still think a printable ticket at home with individual number in a barcode is the best, as I suggested above, or indeed these mobile phone thingys (about which I know nothing, I am afraid).

 

[Hyphen]

You just need one of those bar codes to be printed out at home, just like with airline check in (or as I reported, already available with Nederlandse Spoorwegen and presumably with DB, etc as well).

Some TOCs are currently trialling print-at-home tickets for certain routes and flows - though I think it's mostly just for advance tickets at this stage.

CrossCountry have been trying quite hard to push this and if you are booking an advance journey solely with them that's covered by print-at-home, their website will now charge you £1.00 to opt for TVM collection. Though again, you could book the exact same ticket with another TOC or ticket reseller and get free collection.

I'm not a fan of self-print tickets, and I actively avoid them by using other ticket sellers as described above. What puts me off is the fact they're incredibly easy to make duplicate/fake copies of, and that the TOC will treat the ticket as such until I produce ID to prove I am who the ticket says I am. I realise that the same ID is required to collect orange stock from TVMs, but I don't have to produce it to anybody for inspection, and my ticket is not necessarily going to be greeted with suspicion. Oh, they also operate ticket barriers properly, too (though I understand some of East Coast's barriers now have barcode scanners, negating that point somewhat).

All trains need to be wifi'd, at least for the staff, so that both customer and staff can enjoy a good and safe transaction experience.

I think we're still a long way off that. For the most part, onboard wifi systems use the GSM networks to provide their Internet access - and anybody who's tried to use a phone on a train will know how ropey that can be outside of built-up areas. I understand the wifi on East Coast uses a dedicated trackside radio system which the trains pass data off to. I've never used it to find out if it's more reliable, but there will always be blackspots. You're unlikely to see other TOCs going down the EC route for this - it would simply be too expensive.

Simply put, if Avantix machines are going to be going online regularly, with nothing better than a wet piece of string between it and the world, it could actually make things worse than they are now for guards. With the exception of online-only cards, there's currently a fairly clear line on what can and can't be done onboard a train. If you start making them go online, and start promising things to people, they're going to start getting annoyed that a lack of mobile signal means that half the time their tickets get declined. This increases complaints to the TOCs and could put guards in a confrontational situation.

There's also the slight issue that even with a reliable source of mobile data to the train, the card issuers aren't going to be happy about secure card data being transferred across a (potentially insecure) wifi link.

 

[jon0844]

EC uses satellite and mobile data for its Wi-Fi service. It's Southern and Heathrow Express (and Virgin?) that have a track side system.

FCC is trialling print at home tickets on certain routes/stations, and has fitted a few barcode readers at its gates (but not on all of them, or not that I saw last time I looked).

I wonder how quick the barcode is marked as used? Presumably instantly on that gateline, which can record the code even if it doesn't transmit it anywhere, but what about tickets that could allow you to exit at different stations? Say, I come in to King's Cross with a print out and scan out, while a friend with the identical barcode gets off at Finsbury Park. And if checked on the train, do RPIs have handheld scanners to, again, read the barcode only once and 'kill it'?

There are loads of potential problems with print at home tickets, given it's not as controlled an environment as, say, flying.

 

[Hyphen]

EC uses satellite and mobile data for its Wi-Fi service. It's Southern and Heathrow Express (and Virgin?) that have a track side system.

Thank you for the confirmation - I'm presumably getting different things mixed up in my head!

I wonder how quick the barcode is marked as used? Presumably instantly on that gateline, which can record the code even if it doesn't transmit it anywhere, but what about tickets that could allow you to exit at different stations? Say, I come in to King's Cross with a print out and scan out, while a friend with the identical barcode gets off at Finsbury Park. And if checked on the train, do RPIs have handheld scanners to, again, read the barcode only once and 'kill it'?

Simply put - it doesn't happen, and until Avantix (or handheld readers) goes fully online, it can't happen. For obvious reasons, the barcode itself can't be modified to show it's been read, like a magstripe can be.

All you can really do is print an encrypted barcode containing all the necessary data (decryption can happen offline as long as the readers have the keys installed) so you can compare the encoded data against what's printed. Without access to the encryption keys, you aren't going to be able to create your own barcodes, and encryption with a different key will flag up errors on the reader.

This is why the only real value of these tickets at the moment are for advance fares - they're only valid between two fixed points, on a single train (or a single combination of trains), so the ticket invalidates itself after that time. Non-advance tickets which allow travel on any number of trains would simply have no way of being validated without always-connected readers. Under that setup, you could quite easily buy one SOR/SVR return ticket each way between your two stations, just printing out the appropriate RTN portions every day, and travel for an entire month for the cost of two days' travel.

 

[HowardGWR]

This is why the only real value of these tickets at the moment are for advance fares - they're only valid between two fixed points, on a single train (or a single combination of trains), so the ticket invalidates itself after that time. Non-advance tickets which allow travel on any number of trains would simply have no way of being validated without always-connected readers. Under that setup, you could quite easily buy one SOR/SVR return ticket each way between your two stations, just printing out the appropriate RTN portions every day, and travel for an entire month for the cost of two days' travel.

But surely the same applies to any ticket if not marked used by an on-train controller or platform exit barrier machine in some way (or swallowed), which print at home tickets could be, just as 'ordinary' tickets are?

 

[Hyphen]

But surely the same applies to any ticket if not marked used by an on-train controller or platform exit barrier machine in some way (or swallowed), which print at home tickets could be, just as 'ordinary' tickets are?

This is true, but that's why the railway puts controls in place (or tries to!) for defacing tickets during a journey and withdrawing them at the end. If they fail to do that, it's essentially their own fault if return portions get reused. Once the ticket has been defaced or withdrawn, it cannot be used again.

With the print-at-home tickets, the railway could withdraw or deface the ticket as much as they liked, but if people can continue to then print off tickets that appear valid, it's only going to encourage fraudulent use. I'm sure there's a difficulty barrier which, once breached, stops all but the most determined from doing this sort of thing - see how many more people now download illegal music/movies compared to those who would create bootleg DVDs/VHS now the Internet makes it so easy.

No system will ever be perfect (and I'm sure it's not too difficult to forge orange stock tickets), but some manage to be better than others!

I think we're starting to look into illegal use of things a bit too closely now - and I'm going to shut up

 

[AndyNLondon]

There's also the slight issue that even with a reliable source of mobile data to the train, the card issuers aren't going to be happy about secure card data being transferred across a (potentially insecure) wifi link.

Why would card issuers be unhappy about card terminals using WiFi? They're perfectly happy to use Bluetooth and mobile phone networks - the data will be encrypted on the terminal before being sent, and it then doesn't matter if someone can monitor the encrypted traffic because the whole point of encryption is to make sure that eavesdroppers don't learn anything useful.

 

[richw]

OK, I tried it out with several choices (20th, 21st, 22nd May) and SWT appear to need 9 days notice to deliver one's ticket by 1st class post but it *is* for no extra charge. I suspect the weekend situation may influence that, if one is travelling on a Sunday, for instance. So the 20th was machine only or £6 for next day delivery, 21st was postable, as was of course the 22nd, both for no charge.

I suppose SWT has to be careful of dodgy delivery times and at least they don't charge when they are prepared to send the tickets by post. One up for them then.

I still think a printable ticket at home with individual number in a barcode is the best, as I suggested above, or indeed these mobile phone thingys (about which I know nothing, I am afraid).

I imagine its a set number of working days rather than all days.

Royal mail currently give on their website 3-5 working days for first class delivery. Allow the day of the order, and the need to get the ticket to the traveller at least the day before travel we have 7 working days which line into your 9 actual day finding.
Working Day 1 - day of order
Working Day 2- Working Day 6 - 5 working days for Royal Mail published timescales. Tickets should arrive by day 6 on 5 working day allowance for Royal Mail
Working Day 7 - day of travel

 

[Be3G]

Royal Mail's target is that 93% of first class post should arrive the next working day. I've never seen 3–5 days mentioned anywhere (as an experienced personal user of Royal Mail's services too) although I can see how that could be perhaps the ‘outside’ target within which all first class mail should be delivered.

 

[richw]

Royal Mail's target is that 93% of first class post should arrive the next working day. I've never seen 3–5 days mentioned anywhere (as an experienced personal user of Royal Mail's services too) although I can see how that could be perhaps the ‘outside’ target within which all first class mail should be delivered.

The 3-5 days is what they advise business users to allow for delivery of documentation by 1st class.

 

[Hyphen]

Why would card issuers be unhappy about card terminals using WiFi? They're perfectly happy to use Bluetooth and mobile phone networks - the data will be encrypted on the terminal before being sent, and it then doesn't matter if someone can monitor the encrypted traffic because the whole point of encryption is to make sure that eavesdroppers don't learn anything useful.

That I can't answer. All I know is that for our PDQ terminals at work our bank wanted evidence that they were hardwired to an Internet connection, and didn't bridge any gaps over the air between the device and going out of the building.

The Bluetooth and GSM interfaces are handled inside the devices themselves - between the handset and the supplied base unit in the case of the former. I can only presume it's because the manufacturers know what traffic is going across it, but because they can't tell what's going across a wifi link, it adds an extra level of perceived risk?

Maybe we just have a really ar5ey bank.