'Night Riviera' cancellations

[irish_rail]

That would make sense. How is it done currently?

At present the running jobs are as follows (excluding ECS which is done by PZ and Padd)
Down, Paddington to Exeter (Exeter driver), Exeter to Plymouth (Exeter driver), Plymouth to Par (Plymouth driver) Par to PZ (Plymouth driver)

Up, Penzance to Exeter (Exeter driver) Exeter to Paddington (Exeter driver).

 

[railfan99]

I just know there aren't many HSS drivers there now...

I couldn't find an answer by searching: what does 'HSS' indicate please? 'High speed services?'

 

[Benjwri]

What is the engineering reason for binning the sleeper between October and January out of interest? There was a major resignalling scheme planned for mid-Cornwall in November but this has now been deferred to (probably) March 2024.

That’s quite a long break, over a timetable change. What are the chances October is the last we see of the sleeper?

 

[railfan99]

Up, Penzance to Exeter (Exeter driver) Exeter to Paddington (Exeter driver).

For shifts like this, do drivers go to barracks if you still have them in UK, or a motel or hotel, or do they just fairly soon change over, even though in one case it's an 0100 hours Exeter arruval?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

That’s quite a long break, over a timetable change. What are the chances October is the last we see of the sleeper?

Still runs Friday / Sundays according to upthread, I was merely quoting that as I hadnt heard this was happening?

 

[railfan99]

I'm part of the team who prepare it.at Long Rock ! Used to run the update thread on here back a while.
Without looking up believe sun 10 is last one until Fri 15. Same up then until Fri 3 Oct when goes to Plymouth. Then fri/sun only fir rest of year .

Thanks (and thank you for your work!) Mystifing why GWR would seemingly still be accepting bookings if nights for track maintenance are already decided.

 

[irish_rail]

For shifts like this, do drivers go to barracks if you still have them in UK, or a motel or hotel, or do they just fairly soon change over, even though in one case it's an 0100 hours Exeter arruval?

Yes HSS is high speed service. Sadly now an antiquated term, and a group of drivers management would like to be rid of. I think the Exeter man drives up to London then travels home on first available train In the morning back to Exeter, but am happy to be corrected, as they may currently work back. Defintely not lodging. Only the sleeper attendants Lodge over in London.

 

[FGW_DID]

I couldn't find an answer by searching: what does 'HSS' indicate please? 'High speed services?'

HSS = High Speed & Sleeper.

 

[richw]

What do you mean by "same up then"?
(We are booked on the nights of Sun 3rd and Fri 8th September).

Those dates are before the 10th September so unaffected

 

[whoosh]

It's as if some (or many) of these unionists want to see the number of jobs cut. They fail to realise continual strikes drive (poor pun) more locals to travel by road if they have a car or purchase one. Do these rail employees want to see rail travel become less and less important when in a small, congested island group of nations it should be attractive as motorways/freeways/tollways (and local roads) can be very congested?

Every nation is different, but in mine (that I do not claim to be unattainable 'nirvana'), I can't recall strikes or other forms of industrial action ever dragging on for a year plus.

Naively, I thought when in UK in September/October 2022 "return a year later, and the dispute(s) would be long over."

The continuation sends a shocking, most unimpressive message to foreigners that union militancy is alive and well, and b----r the travelling public.

This unwise ongoing action also benefits competitors such as coach lines National Express, Flixbus et al.

Union militancy is the reason this has dragged on for a year plus?

Oh of course it is!
Not the Government refusing the industry talks with the union for the entirety of 2022.

Then the first 'Rail Delivery Group' offer (with loads of strings attached) in January 2023 still with no talks taking place.
Imagine a union wanting discussions? Outragous! The militancy!


Then talks did did place (which were supposedly going well), but then a second offer was made which was worse than the first one.

So just to recap - there's been only two offers during this dispute. The second was worse than the first one, and the first one was made without there being any talks.

ASLEF are so militant aren't they?!


They won't accept changes to working practises because they are so militant!

Oh hang on....

Changes to working practises will be taking place at Transport for Wales, within a negotiated pay deal.


They are so militant and greedy. Oh hang on again...

Below inflation pay deals have taken place at all the Freight Operating Companies, all the Open Access Operators, Merseyrail, London Overground, and Elizabeth Line.


Yes, it must be absolutely ASLEF's fault that for an entire year of the dispute they were being militant by being available for talks.

And it must be ASLEF's fault that they won't accept changes to working practises - except they have; and be ASLEF's fault that they won't accept a below RPI increase because they are greedy - except they have.


Only the government could lump in different companies, with pay anniversaries falling in different months ranging from January to October (so inflation was at different rates in each month), different rates of pay, different terms and conditions, and expect a 'one size fits all' meshing of Terms and conditions and one woeful payrise to accept it.

Drop the strings and I reckon it would go through.

Negotiate over the strings properly, like Transport for Wales did, and the railway can move forwards.

This continued protraction is entirely the government's doing.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Referring to patronage, currently almost every berth booked out. Still plans for G exam on locos (not 312) and C6 for coaching stock. Also the pre covid plan to increase to 5 SLEP mon to Thurs with 6 on fri/sun is still being talked about. The service is safe, makes a profit and the 57/mk3 combo will be around for years yet.

 

[paulwestwood]

Yes HSS is high speed service. Sadly now an antiquated term, and a group of drivers management would like to be rid of. I think the Exeter man drives up to London then travels home on first available train In the morning back to Exeter, but am happy to be corrected, as they may currently work back. Defintely not lodging. Only the sleeper attendants Lodge over in London.

Driver Passes back and TM is down to Assist on their diagram on the first train back to the West Country

 

[irish_rail]

Driver Passes back and TM is down to Assist on their diagram on the first train back to the West Country

Thanks for clearing that up.

Referring to patronage, currently almost every berth booked out. Still plans for G exam on locos (not 312) and C6 for coaching stock. Also the pre covid plan to increase to 5 SLEP mon to Thurs with 6 on fri/sun is still being talked about. The service is safe, makes a profit and the 57/mk3 combo will be around for years yet.

Good to hear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Referring to patronage, currently almost every berth booked out. Still plans for G exam on locos (not 312) and C6 for coaching stock. Also the pre covid plan to increase to 5 SLEP mon to Thurs with 6 on fri/sun is still being talked about. The service is safe, makes a profit and the 57/mk3 combo will be around for years yet.

Interesting that it makes a profit! I wonder if there are some lessons for the Caledonian there, as that's said to lose a fortune.

 

[Goldfish62]

The service is safe, makes a profit and the 57/mk3 combo will be around for years yet.

Really?! When there was consideration given to withdrawing the service about 20 years ago one of the points made was the huge losses it made, not least due to the need to keep signal boxes open all night that could otherwise be shut. The entire cost of staffing those signal boxes at night was allocated to the access charge for the sleeper, unsurprisingly.

Perhaps there's been a miraculous turnaround. If so perhaps the same trick could be applied to the rest of the railway to get the government off its back!

 

[Benjwri]

Really?! When there was consideration given to withdrawing the service about 20 years ago one of the points made was the huge losses it made, not least due to the need to keep signal boxes open all night that could otherwise be shut. The entire cost of staffing those signal boxes at night was allocated to the access charge for the sleeper, unsurprisingly.

I would imagine this change has entirely disappeared, and that's the difference. The parts of its journey during the middle of the night are in areas such as Bristol, Swindon, which are open for freight. And it arrives into Cornwall while other services are running. If this as the main reason it made a loss, that's probably why it doesn't now.

I wonder if there are some lessons for the Caledonian there, as that's said to lose a fortune.

Probably partially because it's a much simpler operation, no splitting and joining rakes like the Caledonian, only one train etc.

 

[Sleepy]

I would imagine this change has entirely disappeared, and that's the difference. The parts of its journey during the middle of the night are in areas such as Bristol, Swindon, which are open for freight. And it arrives into Cornwall while other services are running. If this as the main reason it made a loss, that's probably why it doesn't now.

Probably partially because it's a much simpler operation, no splitting and joining rakes like the Caledonian, only one train etc.

Given the amount of TM time spent passing on Scotrail services back to home depots as one example of higher costs it's like comparing carrots and grapes ? Bet the Rosco lease charges for Cal Sleeper coaches are eye watering compared to GWR too.

 

[Meglos]

Parliament is in recess in August, so you won't get the 15 Conservative MP's (Cornwall & Devon) raising hell after they lose their weekend trips back to their constituancies.

 

[VP185]

There is no excuse as to why the NR doesn’t run during the overtime ban, for instance, Plymouth have spare turns that could potentially cover the up sleeper from Penzance in the evenings. Exeter also have a spare cover turns as well. Not sure about crew availability at Paddington.

Surely they have to explore the option of retiming both trains to enable an extended dwell time at Taunton so that a crew change and PNB could take place

I firmly believe that both GWR and the DfT want to kill off the NR. The 57s haven’t got much more life in them, they are shortly due an overhaul and there’s no other loco options for replacement. I know they had a tender out for replacement but that will be scrapped, a small fleet of locomotives will be costly and no one will want to finance that now.

 

[duncanp]

There is no excuse as to why the NR doesn’t run during the overtime ban, for instance, Plymouth have spare turns that could potentially cover the up sleeper from Penzance in the evenings. Exeter also have a spare cover turns as well. Not sure about crew availability at Paddington.

Surely they have to explore the option of retiming both trains to enable an extended dwell time at Taunton so that a crew change and PNB could take place

I firmly believe that both GWR and the DfT want to kill off the NR. The 57s haven’t got much more life in them, they are shortly due an overhaul and there’s no other loco options for replacement. I know they had a tender out for replacement but that will be scrapped, a small fleet of locomotives will be costly and no one will want to finance that now.

If the sleeper only runs on Fridays and Sundays, then people will get used to making alternative arrangements.

Then GWR and the DfT will say that there is no demand for reinstating the sleeper to run six nights per week.

Then they will withdraw the service completely, saying that there is not enough demand.

It wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to get rid of the Scottish sleepers as well, except that they are mindful of the reaction from the Scottish government.

 

[paul1609]

Referring to patronage, currently almost every berth booked out. Still plans for G exam on locos (not 312) and C6 for coaching stock. Also the pre covid plan to increase to 5 SLEP mon to Thurs with 6 on fri/sun is still being talked about. The service is safe, makes a profit and the 57/mk3 combo will be around for years yet.

Sounds like an ideal operation for an open access operator. The Night Riviera by Grand Duchy trains?

 

[Goldfish62]

The 57s haven’t got much more life in them, they are shortly due an overhaul and there’s no other loco options for replacement. I know they had a tender out for replacement but that will be scrapped, a small fleet of locomotives will be costly and no one will want to finance that now.

In this month's Modern Railways Hopwood was talking about the need to find replacement traction soon.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

GWR are most definitely in favour of retaining the Night Riviera, all things being equal. It’s one of the flagship aspects of the brand and GWR see themselves as a market leader in terms of quality etc. (Hence the time, money and effort put into the sleeper car refurbishment programme - travel on it and you’ll see!)

The DfT - and Treasury - may see it differently of course.

 

[irish_rail]

Sounds like an ideal operation for an open access operator. The Night Riviera by Grand Duchy trains?

Then you need dedicated traincrew and whatnot and all of a sudden it becomes a financial basket case like the Scotrail one.

There is no excuse as to why the NR doesn’t run during the overtime ban, for instance, Plymouth have spare turns that could potentially cover the up sleeper from Penzance in the evenings. Exeter also have a spare cover turns as well. Not sure about crew availability at Paddington.

Surely they have to explore the option of retiming both trains to enable an extended dwell time at Taunton so that a crew change and PNB could take place

I firmly believe that both GWR and the DfT want to kill off the NR. The 57s haven’t got much more life in them, they are shortly due an overhaul and there’s no other loco options for replacement. I know they had a tender out for replacement but that will be scrapped, a small fleet of locomotives will be costly and no one will want to finance that now.

Indeed, the up departure from Penzance used to regularly be covered by Plymouth off spare,but I haven't done it, or heard of another Plymouth driver doing that leg since covid. Not sure why. Does make you think though, in the current climate I really wouldn't be surprised if the Dft is dead set on getting rid of the night riviera.

 

[Goldfish62]

GWR are most definitely in favour of retaining the Night Riviera, all things being equal. It’s one of the flagship aspects of the brand and GWR see themselves as a market leader in terms of quality etc. (Hence the time, money and effort put into the sleeper car refurbishment programme - travel on it and you’ll see!)

The DfT - and Treasury - may see it differently of course.

Things are of course very different now than pre-Covid when the excellent refurb was done. It's not much consolation that GWR want to keep it should the DfT want to get rid of it.

 

[paul1609]

Then you need dedicated traincrew and whatnot and all of a sudden it becomes a financial basket case like the Scotrail one.

Id have thought outsourcing it to one of the freight companies (like the caledonian sleeper) but keeping it as a simple operation would actually save money. it allows GWR to concentrate on MU work and reduces there complexity.

 

[irish_rail]

Id have thought outsourcing it to one of the freight companies (like the caledonian sleeper) but keeping it as a simple operation would actually save money. it allows GWR to concentrate on MU work and reduces there complexity.

Outsourcing rarely saves money.

 

[dk1]

GWR are most definitely in favour of retaining the Night Riviera, all things being equal. It’s one of the flagship aspects of the brand and GWR see themselves as a market leader in terms of quality etc. (Hence the time, money and effort put into the sleeper car refurbishment programme - travel on it and you’ll see!)

The DfT - and Treasury - may see it differently of course.

The latter know the cost of everything & the value of nothing.

 

[TPO]

Parliament is in recess in August, so you won't get the 15 Conservative MP's (Cornwall & Devon) raising hell after they lose their weekend trips back to their constituancies.

Nail. Head. On.

Not just MPs but senior civil servants too.

Similarly, no one dares to risk delay to the Golden Hinde on a Monday in "term time."

TPO

 

[dctraindriver]

It's as if some (or many) of these unionists want to see the number of jobs cut. They fail to realise continual strikes drive (poor pun) more locals to travel by road if they have a car or purchase one. Do these rail employees want to see rail travel become less and less important when in a small, congested island group of nations it should be attractive as motorways/freeways/tollways (and local roads) can be very congested?

Every nation is different, but in mine (that I do not claim to be unattainable 'nirvana'), I can't recall strikes or other forms of industrial action ever dragging on for a year plus.

Naively, I thought when in UK in September/October 2022 "return a year later, and the dispute(s) would be long over."

The continuation sends a shocking, most unimpressive message to foreigners that union militancy is alive and well, and b----r the travelling public.

This unwise ongoing action also benefits competitors such as coach lines National Express, Flixbus et al.

I really hope this doesn’t stop you enjoying your visit to the UK. As someone who spent my younger years in Oz I remember how ‘militant’ the unions could be but understand union membership has reduced considerably over the past couple of decades.

All I’ll say in relation to your comment regarding the unions want to see jobs cut that isn’t the case. This govt are quite happy to sit on their hands and let this drag out. All they need to do is offer a deal with no changes to t&c’s but that doesn’t fit their agenda. So it’s stalemate for now. And while I can’t talk for other areas of the network, even during I/A the trains remain busy, well the ones I’m driving anyhow. I hope it’s resolved sooner rather than later.

Enjoy your trip here. Hopefully I’ll be popping back in the next year or too as been a few years since my last visit to Syd.