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NIR - Why not TOPS?

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Nonsense

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Recently become interested in Northern Ireland Railways. Superficially, NIR looks very similar to BR, with mk2 and mk3 coaches and such, with the exception of the wider gauge, so I can't help but wonder why the Railways, unlike the other nationalised institutions like BT, Post Office, Royal Mail, BBC et al, were managed in isolation.

So why no broad gauge class 37s? Why no TOPS?
 
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swt_passenger

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Simples...

No nationalisation in 1948.

It was 'British Railways', not 'United Kingdom Railways', after all...
 

Zoe

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In the future though a UK wide designation will likely be introduced as part of an EU wide numbering system.
 

jamesontheroad

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The 1948 Transport Act (NI) merged...

  • Northern Ireland Road Transport Board (NIRTB)
  • Belfast and County Down Railway (BCDR)
  • Northern Counties Committee (NCC) (owned by LMS until BR was nationalised).

...into the Ulster Transport Authority (UTA).

The 1967 Transport Act (NI) formed the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company (NITHCo) to take over the operations of the UTA. That created Ulsterbus and NIR. Citybus (now Metro) came later, in the early seventies, IIRC. NITHCo still exists; NIR is the subsidiary. I believe that at some point between being the UTA and NIR, the railways were also briefly known as as Ulster Transport Railways (UTR) but I lose track of the chronology.
 

Thewanderer

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In fairness they never needed TOPS. It's not like they have a big railway. ATOS only installed GENIUS? on NIR a few years ago.

South of the border we don't have anything like TOPS either. Excel sheets, faxes and email rules for finding out location of vehicles each morning! Well I know where they "should be", just confirming they are actually where they are supposed to be.

The Wanderer.
 

Zoe

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South of the border we don't have anything like TOPS either. Excel sheets, faxes and email rules for finding out location of vehicles each morning! Well I know where they "should be", just confirming they are actually where they are supposed to be.
That will have to change though once the new EU system is introduced.
 

Thewanderer

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Why?

I don't think I'll lose any trains in the UK or Mainland Europe.

Don't worry 22437 22537 22637 are shown at Railcare Works Springburn undergoing repairs.
 

Thewanderer

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To NI yes but to the mainland? Can you tell me where it is cos i seem to have missed it.
 

Nonsense

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In fairness they never needed TOPS. It's not like they have a big railway. ATOS only installed GENIUS? on NIR a few years ago.

South of the border we don't have anything like TOPS either. Excel sheets, faxes and email rules for finding out location of vehicles each morning! Well I know where they "should be", just confirming they are actually where they are supposed to be.

The Wanderer.

Wow. Excel. I ran a distribution center operation on Excel and fag packets and you could hear it creak. Indeed, I used to joke that it was no way to run a railway. Who knew.
 

Zoe

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To NI yes but to the mainland? Can you tell me where it is cos i seem to have missed it.
Well stock in Northern Ireland and Ireland will likely both have different EU designations in the future as part of the new EU system.
 

Thewanderer

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With the EVN scheme? Another waste of money. I did hear NIR wanted to op out of it (not sure if they have) but IE are ploughing along.

But you still haven't explained why that will have to change. It doesn't need to change for daily purpose. Staff on the ground will still record the vehicle by the 4 or 5 digit number. If they started recording all 12 numbers they will be there a while!
 

Zoe

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But you still haven't explained why that will have to change. It doesn't need to change for daily purpose. Staff on the ground will still record the vehicle by the 4 or 5 digit number. If they started recording all 12 numbers they will be there a while!
Would they not at least include the country code? UK stock will be running on the Irish railway. Have Ireland even split their infrastructure and operations as required by the EU directive yet?
 

Old Timer

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The whole EU is simply a massive bureaucracy, run by bureaucrats and administrators, who cannot comprehend that it is not a one size fits all solution.

The EU rail vehicle numbering system is designed to allow vehicles to be tracked within the EU. It is neither needed nor feasible to operate this in Ireland especially, however the bureaucratic mind cannot comprehend this, and thus large sums of money will be wasted implementing something that achieves nothing other than absolute compliance with a system that is neither needed nor effective in the Irish scenario.

As with so much within the EU the outcome achieves nothing.
 

island

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Superficially, NIR looks very similar to BR, with mk2 and mk3 coaches and such, with the exception of the wider gauge

NIR does not use coaches at all (with the exception of the jointly-owned Enterprise); it is entirely DMUs.

Iarnród Éireann has scrapped all its mk2ds and mothballed all its mk3s. Currrently it operates Irish mk4 coaches (which are nothing to do with BR mk4s) and a big pile of intercity and commuter DMUs, plus EMUs in Dublin.
 

4SRKT

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NIR does not use coaches at all (with the exception of the jointly-owned Enterprise); it is entirely DMUs.

I guess he meant that 80 class units are mk II and 450 are mk III.

As for the question as to why no TOPS on NIR, you might as well as why no TOPS on SNCF.

As for the OP recently becoming interested in NIR, gaah! what bad timing! It's about to become the least interesting railway in Europe, from being one of the most eccentric a generation ago.
 

starrymarkb

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Well stock in Northern Ireland and Ireland will likely both have different EU designations in the future as part of the new EU system.

Is that similar to the existing UIC numbers?

eg: xx 70 00nnnnn-x (where nnnnn = the existing number)
 

table38

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Perhaps the way forward is barcodes on the sides of the trains. Spotters could be equipped with barcode readers... :D

(Actually IIRC this was an April Fools article many years ago. Doesn't sound so unlikely now)
 

starrymarkb

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Perhaps the way forward is barcodes on the sides of the trains. Spotters could be equipped with barcode readers... :D

(Actually IIRC this was an April Fools article many years ago. Doesn't sound so unlikely now)

RFID is more likely, with the train being tagged with a high powered 'oyster card'. This is commonly used for containers and other inventory situations
 

Nonsense

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I guess he meant that 80 class units are mk II and 450 are mk III.

As for the question as to why no TOPS on NIR, you might as well as why no TOPS on SNCF.

As for the OP recently becoming interested in NIR, gaah! what bad timing! It's about to become the least interesting railway in Europe, from being one of the most eccentric a generation ago.

SNCF, to my knowledge, never had spending decisions made in Westminster. It just puzzled me, knowing very little of the historical reasons, that, gauge and Irish Sea aside, there weren't closer ties with British Rail. Economies of scale and best practice and stuff.

I'm not up to date on Irish rail but I've seen images of NIR Locomotives with the orange warning strip, full yellow fronts and OHL warning stickers. But this doesn't seem necessary on all stock. My main interest is British Railway operations and sometimes Irish rail looks like it could be another region of BR.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9d/Ie071.jpg

Having said that, theres a French loco kitted out for BR metals in this linked thread.

http://forum.beneluxspoor.net/index.php?topic=10604.0
 

4SRKT

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SNCF, to my knowledge, never had spending decisions made in Westminster. It just puzzled me, knowing very little of the historical reasons, that, gauge and Irish Sea aside, there weren't closer ties with British Rail. Economies of scale and best practice and stuff.

When Northern Ireland was created it had a system of government called Home Rule. This in practice meant that it was virtually an independent country, with only things like currency, defence and foreign policy in common with the rest of the UK. Many things were different about NI before the Troubles: an armed Police force, the requirement to own property or have your name on a rent book in order to vote, abortion being illegal (still the case), blatant discrimination on religious grounds in terms of jobs and housing, to name but a few. The province had its own Government in its entirity, with a Prime Minister, Cabinet and all the trappings of a nation state.

This Home Rule was the model intended by the British Liberal government for the whole of Ireland before the First World War. In the event two Home Rule states were set up, Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland. It was inconceivable that Southern Ireland could have been set up with the same relation to the UK as Scotland or Wales, and the very arms-length set up required for the South was also applied to Northern Ireland. In practice the Home Rule state of Southern Ireland immediately transformed itself into the Irish Free State on partition, and finally severed all remaining links with Britain in 1949 (left the Commonwealth).

All this means that laws and legislation passed in Britain did not apply in Northern Ireland unless specifically brought in by the Northern Ireland government. Things like the Welfare State didn't come in in NI until later than in the rest of the UK. Railways in Northern Ireland were indeed nationalised in 1949, but the model of the UTA bore more resemblance to CIE in the Republic than to BR. For a year between nationalisation in Britain and in NI the former LMS NCC lines were actually part of BR, as was the NCC's joint share (with the GNR(I)) in the County Donegal Railway, whose lines were almost entirely in a different country, but the NCC was absorbed into the UTA shortly after its creation. The GNR(I) was split between the UTA and CIE in 1958, resulting in the closure of nearly all of it because many of its lines crossed the border in several places, and once the UTA had done its dirty work closing sections in Northern Ireland, there was little CIE could do with isolated sections in the Republic other than close them as well. This is why there are virtually no railways in the counties along the border.

Following the abolition of the Northern Ireland government in 1972, NI did become more closely linked with the rest of the UK, but by then the structures of ownership of the railways and other public bodies was established and were different from Britain. In short, Northern Ireland's spending decisions on such matters were *not* made in Westminster.
 
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