No Trains on Boxing Day

[800001]

At what price?

£76.30 off peak single.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

It’s notable that, despite the perception of railway unions being stronger than NHS unions, a “Standard bank holiday enhancement” is not something most traincrew get. For most of us bank holidays, apart from Xmas day and Boxing Day, simply aren’t a concept we benefit from. We even have to use annual leave for Xmas day and Boxing Day if rostered to work, despite no trains turning a wheel across much of the network. That said, I’m glad to hear that NHS staff get those enhancements - I’m sure they’re well deserved.

I'm surprised that there isn't an enhancement, but then again where you and your colleagues get bonuses for RDW, she (on a 32 hour contract) doesn't even get overtime on covering another shift until she's clocked more than 37 hours that week, which makes no sense to me... So I guess it's swings and roundabouts

I did 40 years with BR and 3 TOCs, 26 years of which involved shift work including nights

I accepted that I would be working to provide a service at times when most people wouldn't be working including one year finishing work at 0200 on Christmas morning and being at work at 0400 on Boxing Day.

I just wonder what some of the complainers on here would think if their places of work wanted them on duty on Bank Holidays and at Christmas; would they still feel the same?

I spent a number of years on-call for Christmas (we used to do 1 on/1 off, change on Monday morning) and honestly - I'd have been happier working; there was nothing worse than sitting around knowing you couldn't go anywhere or have a drink as you were on 24/7 standby.

Apart from the ridiculous statement of running DOO, why are we picking the 6th of January as the return to normal?

I assumed it was because it's 12th night when you have to take all the decorations down!

Not sure that follows, “the full range of shifts” for rail staff often doesn’t include Sundays, and very very few work Xmas or Boxing Day (a higher proportion of front line NHS staff will, including midwives and nurses), so it is not right to say working these shifts is included in staff base salaries. It is no less inconvenient for railway staff to work antisocial shifts than it is for NHS staff, or others, yet some appear to have a problem with railway staff being incentivised to do so, while this is accepted in other industries.

(The NHS also has bizarre pay banding where people in a hospitality department’s pay will be arbitrarily based on that of a junior nurse, for example).

It also doesn't help that two band 6 midwives could do totally different jobs. My Mrs works 3x12 hour shifts on anti/post natal wards, some work 5x7.hour shifts on community with no weekends, hence why the enhancements are separate from the base.

 

[12LDA28C]

Of course it would; Christmas is a special time of year and the railways in nearly every country run for the purpose of uniting families and friend groups - as well as taking many people to work - rather than pure avarice or commercial interest. If you disagree, you will either need to show me that Christmas running makes loads of money for the railways that do open in, say, Italy, or explain why this specific form of British Railway Exceptionalism is justified. Yes, there are barriers to running the service here, but they are neither insurmountable nor amount to an objection in principle to running trains...for people to ride on...to go places they need to be.


Nobody said anything about importance.

Several posters here have attempted to explain to you why essential engineering work is carried out at Christmas and you yourself stated that overall demand is less. You then go on to claim that although demand is less, running trains over Christmas provides a strong ‘social purpose’. Clearly this suggests that you believe that since the engineering works would have to take place at another time if trains ran at Christmas, festive season travellers are somehow more important than those who would be disrupted at another time of year when those displaced works are carried out.

 

[dk1]

Which shows that the service on the days around or between Christmas and New Year should be reduced as lower demand but not that a service shouldn't run on the Boxing Day.

Also the bus from Witham and extended journeys probably put people of that need to be in London early etc.

If services were reduced on the proceeding days, between and after New year as appropriate to the days they fall on to reflect demand this would allow more staff time off and or less RDW required over the greater Christmas period.

Possibly but in my experience there is always more overtime offered than you can shake a stick at. This is often due to the worst jobs being outside the spare movement of available crews as these are often the later and less popular shifts going.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

£76.30 off peak single.

My flight was far, FAR cheaper than that, and that’s before you consider the fact I’d spend at least £15 getting to Euston.

 

[Rail Ranger]

At what price?

I suspect that you have been misinformed by misleading nonsense on the Avanti or another ticket buying website. Probably saying that only first class fares were available because standard class is "full". The full range of fares (including walk up fares like the Off Peak Single) can be found at www.brfares.com. There are no tickets restrictions on Avanti on a Friday so the £76.30 Off Peak Single is valid on any train.

 

[dk1]

My flight was far, FAR cheaper than that, and that’s before you consider the fact I’d spend at least £15 getting to Euston.

Seems like there’s lots of spare capacity on Manchester flights from London these days. Apart from interconnecting there isn’t much point to them anymore.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I suspect that you have been misinformed by misleading nonsense on the Avanti or another ticket buying website. Probably saying that only first class fares were available because standard class is "full". The full range of fares (including walk up fares like the Off Peak Single) can be found at www.brfares.com. There are no tickets restrictions on Avanti on a Friday so the £76.30 Off Peak Single is valid on any train.

I looked on Trainsplit and there were no trains cheaper than this flight. I don’t understand why people are so desperate to convince me I made the wrong decision I don’t want to splash out for an off peak single, thank you very much! Anyhow, we’re going to get our wrists slapped for off topic discussion if we continue

 

[Krokodil]

There might be, but "this makes a loss" is not a good reason to object on principle to providing a railway service and everyone here knows it.

I'm not objecting on a matter of principle (I did say earlier that everyone has their price, make mine treble time and I might think about it). I'm just pointing out the harsh reality we live in, where one existing service might only be used by one passenger a day but they can kick up a political stink if you try to withdraw it, whereas if you want to introduce a whole new service you're going to have to convince the Treasury that it absolutely definitely won't make the railway lose even more money than it already does - and no one can claim hardship if you don't introduce it.

I suppose you also support six hour Sunday Trading Law limits for supermarkets, being another British Christian tradition?

I'm not religious but I'd happily make the rules stricter anyway. As we're making comparisons on this thread with service provision in European countries I could point out that most countries either restrict retail hours on Sundays, or force closure altogether (usually with exceptions for petrol stations, railway stations etc.). Not just the countries you'd associate with religion either.

 

[43066]

For some rail staff - there are huge number of rail staff who already have Sundays within the working week.

I know, I’m one of them! I did say “often” .

I'm surprised that there isn't an enhancement, but then again where you and your colleagues get bonuses for RDW, she (on a 32 hour contract) doesn't even get overtime on covering another shift until she's clocked more than 37 hours that week, which makes no sense to me... So I guess it's swings and roundabouts

To be totally clear, if we are delayed on a shift we can only claim overtime after 20 mins, and that is payable at the usual hourly rate. RDW (ie coming in on a day off to work a shift) is payable at an enhanced rate to persuade people to volunteer for it rather than a “bonus” as such. Both of the above will vary slightly by TOC, for RDW some will pay a “book on” fee of £45 and then flat rate, my TOC pays no book on but an enhanced rate of time * 1.5 - no enhancement for bank holidays or Sundays as ours are inside the working week.

Swings and roundabouts, as you say. As noted above Xmas day and Boxing Day are required to be taken as annual leave, if you’re rostered to work and have run out of leave you’re docked a day’s pay for each!

I don’t really understand how your wife’s arrangement makes sense, other than the NHS cynically knowing they can get away with guilt tripping people caring for actual patients feeling too guilty to “clock off” - ie emotionally blackmailing them into working for free . Is it any wonder so many of them are decamping to Australia?!

Yes, there are barriers to running the service here, but they are neither insurmountable nor amount to an objection in principle to running trains...for people to ride on...to go places they need to be.

I agree with this in principle, and I doubt there would be any objection from staff or the unions to Boxing Day running, just so long as the crewing arrangements were as per the London Overground arrangement.

The main barrier, which probably is insurmountable, is willingness to pay for it on behalf of the DfT, who we know look at things from the narrow point of view of “does the railway cover its Opex?”. That will be a more difficult hurdle to overcome on Boxing Day, certainly outside of London and other major cities. If we did start opening the network more widely on Boxing Day I have no doubt that position might eventually change, as travel patterns would evolve, but not initially.

 

[js517]

Nothing is ridiculous about expecting the (British !) railway to observe the Twelve days of Christmas

Or perhaps we should encourage the railway to share it's toys with those that want to play with them over Christmas

 

[AlterEgo]

Several posters here have attempted to explain to you why essential engineering work is carried out at Christmas

Yes, I know this. I am contesting that it is a good idea to congest all engineering work at this time of year. This has significant disbenefits which the railway has not confronted because it has managed to stew itself into a mess regarding overtime, staff contracts, Schedule 4 payments, and a culture of glacial change.

We can instinctively tell this might not be a good idea because no other sensible country does this, but broadly off the top of my head:

- Christmas blockades are not, in fact, long enough in many cases and this leads to overruns and lower quality work carried out yet at a premium price. Blockades should be longer, spread out to minimise impact, and not during the busiest travel week of the year (Sure, people are using cars then - but that's because there are no trains, not due to a lack of actual travelling!). There are few roadworks at Christmas for this reason, yet the railway closes. It is absurd.
- 27th December and whichever weekday falls closest before the 25th are a nightmare for long distance travel, with very little resilience and a high chance of a spoiled and fractious journey. 27th sees a lot of pent up demand which could be spread over Boxing Day.
- The low demand for rail travel is artificial and comes from - guess what - historically not running trains at this time, a sort of reverse induced demand.
- If the railway's infrastructure was generally reliable I would accept a rebuttal to point 1, but it is plainly not, and we need to in fact really think hard about when we close the railway and why.

You then go on to claim that although demand is less, running trains over Christmas provides a strong ‘social benefit’. Clearly this suggests that you believe that since the engineering works would have to take place at another time if trains ran at Christmas, festive season travellers are more important than those who would be disrupted at another time of year when those displaced works are carried out.

No, it does not confer anything about importance, and I am not suggesting that your hypothetical prioritisation of passengers in some random week in March or October would be related to the passengers' "importance", whatever this means to you here.

The main barrier, which probably is insurmountable, is willingness to pay for it on behalf of the DfT, who we know look at things from the narrow point of view of “does the railway cover its Opex?”. That will be a more difficult hurdle to overcome on Boxing Day, certainly outside of London and other major cities. That position might eventually change, as travel patterns would evolve, but not initially.

Very much this - the railway is run by HM Treasury more than it has been for a long time. Treasury Brain is really a disease, unfortunately, and infects so much of our politics!

 

[380101]

Exactly this type of agreement is widespread across many TOCs so not really a local depot agreement at a specific location as you claim.

What I mean is that it will be a locally negotiated agreement on how the equalisation works for that depot. It is absolutely not an Aslef agreement. Every depot, even within the same TOC, will potentially have different agreements in place to deal with equalisation depending on their way of working.

For instance, at my depot if you are marked up for a rdw and then subsequently decline it you get +2 against you - a local agreement. The next depot to us you get +1 for declining a rdw.

 

[43066]

What I mean is that it will be a locally negotiated agreement on how the equalisation works for that depot. It is absolutely not an Aslef agreement. Every depot, even within the same TOC, will potentially have different agreements in place to deal with equalisation depending on their way of working.

For instance, at my depot if you are marked up for a rdw and then subsequently decline it you get +2 against you - a local agreement. The next depot to us you get +1 for declining a rdw.

There may be local variations, a little like annual leave quotas which naturally vary by establishment levels, but still very much agreed between local ASLEF reps and local management.

 

[380101]

There will be local variations, a little like annual leave quotas, but still very much agreed between local ASLEF reps and local management.

I know, but it's still not an Aslef agreement. It's an agreement between the local driver's rep (not necessarily an Aslef member (unlikely I know, but they could be rmt)) and their depot manager and/or roster clerk.

Whilst it's almost a given that a local rep will be an Aslef member, LDC/LLC positions are company positions and not Aslef roles. Certainly this the case in ScotRail.

 

[43066]

I know, but it's still not an Aslef agreement. It's an agreement between the local driver's rep (not necessarily an Aslef member (unlikely I know, but they could be rmt)) and their depot manager and/or roster clerk.

Whilst it's almost a given that a local rep will be an Aslef member, LDC/LLC positions are company positions and not Aslef roles. Certainly this the case in ScotRail.

Okay thanks. Would be interesting to discuss that elsewhere - probably off topic for this thread though!

 

[Somewhere]

Mercifully society has moved on and paternity leave entitlements are much more generous.

Indeed. A woman is actually allowed to go back to work and allow the father (of either sex or gender) to look after the child instead.

 

[BAFRA77]

They could have flown or driven yesterday.

And what about people like me who hold neither a driving licence or a passport (which is needed to check in on most airlines for internal flights as it is used as photo ID) - what are we to do?

 

[12LDA28C]

For instance, at my depot if you are marked up for a rdw and then subsequently decline it you get +2 against you - a local agreement. The next depot to us you get +1 for declining a rdw.

I suggest that a system whereby you get +1 added to your RD count if you work it, and the same if you decline it at short notice is not providing much incentive for a driver to attend for a RDW, or at least not to ‘chuck it in’ if they get a better (non work-related) offer.

 

[AverageJoe]

And what about people like me who hold neither a driving licence or a passport (which is needed to check in on most airlines for internal flights as it is used as photo ID) - what are we to do?

Travel another day, flex bus, national express, taxi or get on a busy train on the 27th.

It’s not anyone’s god given right to board a train on Boxing Day.

People have plenty of notice that trains will not run.

There’s been times in my life I’ve wanted to fly somewhere and a flight hasn’t been available so I adjust my plans. It’s how life works.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Travel another day, flex bus, national express, taxi or get on a busy train on the 27th.

It’s not anyone’s god given right to board a train on Boxing Day.

People have plenty of notice that trains will not run.

There’s been times in my life I’ve wanted to fly somewhere and a flight hasn’t been available so I adjust my plans. It’s how life works.

What do you think differentiates the railway from aviation and coach travel in terms of whether or not staff should have it off, out of interest?

 

[AverageJoe]

What do you think differentiates the railway from aviation and coach travel in terms of whether or not staff should have it off, out of interest?

I have no opinion on it.

I’ve said in earlier posts if I was paid extra to come in on those days I would do.

It’s the fact that people act as if it is their only possible means of transport and they MUST travel on that day.

People have pointed out the fact often essential work is being carried out on the rails over the Xmas period which differentiates from air and vehicle travel.

 

[43066]

What do you think differentiates the railway from aviation and coach travel in terms of whether or not staff should have it off, out of interest?

A pretty good differentiator is the fact that the DfT, who run the railway these days, don’t currently require a Boxing Day service across most of the network, and neither do they permit the TOCs to independently decide to operate one. If and when that changes (and I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting) there can be a negotiation about staff working patterns. Until then, it’s a moot point.

The other industries you mention aren’t subject to anything like the same level of DfT control, so the relevant employers can make their own decisions around which services they wish to offer, and negotiate with their workforces accordingly.

 

[dangie]

What do you think differentiates the railway from aviation and coach travel in terms of whether or not staff should have it off, out of interest?

The UK railway contained within the boundaries of the UK. Generally we celebrate Christmas & New Year.

Aviation on the other hand is spread worldwide. Taking London Heathrow for example, the majority of flights originate from abroad, many from countries which probably don’t celebrate Christmas, or not to the same extent. To tell foreign airlines they can’t fly into and out of the UK over Christmas & New Year is not an option.

 

[Krokodil]

What do you think differentiates the railway from aviation and coach travel in terms of whether or not staff should have it off, out of interest?

The fact that no one is willing to pay for Boxing Day services

 

[muz379]

What do you think differentiates the railway from aviation and coach travel in terms of whether or not staff should have it off, out of interest?

Coaches can divert around major road works , aviation can use alternative airports and use the former method of transport to join up the dots . Trains cannot so readily divert around the plethora of major works that take place over christmas . Yes we could do those works at different times , but whenever they do happen you are going to have traincrew redundant for that period . And nobody has actually suggested a sensible alternative for when to do those works

Anyway , whilst staff directly involved in operations like traincrew do get time off over christmas in the rail industry . Maintenance staff and the various possession support roles work when they otherwise wouldnt have been on a Wednesday and Thursday day .

I am sure there will be loads that work for coach companies in roles other than driving coaches and in the aviation industry that equally don't work over that period .

 

[Krokodil]

And if a major airport needs to close for planned work, it just closes. No obligation to provide a replacement, the flights are never advertised and the planes just stay on the ground. If you start advertising a Boxing Day train service you're obliged to replace any trains which cannot run because of engineering work.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

A few points spring to mind as I think more about this:

National Highways try to avoid known busy times for having roads closed, or severely impacted by roadworks, e.g. Half Terms, School Holidays start/finish, Bank Holidays etc. With the railway, there is an argument that they are doing the same thing by doing works over Christmas albeit with no data to prove there's reduced demand. If we had a cast iron, copper bottomed survey that proved running over Christmas and Boxing Day would actually be socially good and at least break even, if not make a profit, would it then be acceptable to move away from the Christmas shutdown?

I think there may be a need for Boxing Day transport - local to me, out Transport Heritage Society run Boxing Day town service and outlying village routes, entirely with (unpaid) volunteer drivers. They do this purely for donations to the trust, and have done so since before COVID. They wouldn't be doing it if there weren't people using it or they weren't covering their costs. It doesn't run all day, only from 10-4ish, but it does allow those without cars the ability to get from A to B (and hopefully back to A again)

 

[Stephen42]

A few points spring to mind as I think more about this:

National Highways try to avoid known busy times for having roads closed, or severely impacted by roadworks, e.g. Half Terms, School Holidays start/finish, Bank Holidays etc. With the railway, there is an argument that they are doing the same thing by doing works over Christmas albeit with no data to prove there's reduced demand. If we had a cast iron, copper bottomed survey that proved running over Christmas and Boxing Day would actually be socially good and at least break even, if not make a profit, would it then be acceptable to move away from the Christmas shutdown?

I think there may be a need for Boxing Day transport - local to me, out Transport Heritage Society run Boxing Day town service and outlying village routes, entirely with (unpaid) volunteer drivers. They do this purely for donations to the trust, and have done so since before COVID. They wouldn't be doing it if there weren't people using it or they weren't covering their costs. It doesn't run all day, only from 10-4ish, but it does allow those without cars the ability to get from A to B (and hopefully back to A again)

One way of assessing demand is to look at usage where the services are running. TfL make a ridership dashboard available at a per day level for Tube and Buses based on recorded entries and exits. Filtering down to Tuesdays, Thursday and Fridays for weekdays excluding Monday/Wednesday for Christmas day last/this year gives:

Boxing day is the lowest for tube and buses in both years by some margin. Christmas eve and yesterday this year were similarly very low. Tube might be lower from lack of connecting trains, however that would be less of a factor for buses - some of which people may have used where trains aren't running but buses are. The dashboard also allows viewing figures for individual stations which show the same pattern out in the suburbs, there are higher figures in some places e.g. Heathrow where tube becomes the only option on Boxing Day. Good Friday is the date in March 2024 with the lower ridership.

Clearly there will be differences between different regions and routes, some people would definitely want to travel and can't, but that data suggests reduced demand in London over the Christmas period compared to midweek any other week.

 

[185143]

The UK railway contained within the boundaries of the UK. Generally we celebrate Christmas & New Year.

Aviation on the other hand is spread worldwide. Taking London Heathrow for example, the majority of flights originate from abroad, many from countries which probably don’t celebrate Christmas, or not to the same extent. To tell foreign airlines they can’t fly into and out of the UK over Christmas & New Year is not an option.

Dublin Airport doesn't operate any flights on Christmas Day, and is staffed with only the absolute minimum essential ATC and fire crews in case an emergency diversion becomes necessary.

Any aircraft which are lucky enough to remain on the ground in Dublin over Christmas are blessed by a priest in quite a long running Irish tradition.