No Trains on Boxing Day

[Horizon22]

Well, yes - trains are always exceptionally busy on the 27th because of the pent up demand from the 26th in particular. Many people travel home on Boxing Day by car, but those who can't often have to get the train on the 27th.

Simply untrue. Having worked yesterday, I can tell you passenger numbers were significantly decreased.

 

[AlterEgo]

Simply untrue. Having worked yesterday, I can tell you passenger numbers were significantly decreased.

Never been my experience at two intercity TOCs.

 

[Horizon22]

Never been my experience at two intercity TOCs.

I think it's relative though - is it actually busier than another weekend in say half-term or summer holidays even if it might go in spikes? Or taking the whole week into account?

As I said earlier big engineering works need to be done and your opinion is that a 9-day closure should be shunted elsewhere. Many disagree and I think passenger numbers don't support your case and we could argue about "chicken or egg" induced demand for ages but I maintain Xmas Day is the #1 day for reduced travel. In that case, it makes sense to build around that date to inconvenience fewer people.

I would be interested on when you think a 9-day closure is best implemented.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think it's relative though - is it actually busier than another weekend in say half-term or summer holidays even if it might go in spikes? Or taking the whole week into account?

As I said earlier big engineering works need to be done and your opinion is that a 9-day closure should be shunted elsewhere. Many disagree and I think passenger numbers don't support your case and we could argue about "chicken or egg" induced demand for ages but I maintain Xmas Day is the #1 day for reduced travel. In that case, it makes sense to build around that date to inconvenience fewer people.

I would be interested on when you think a 9-day closure is best implemented.

It’s much better to consider why no other observant country does this and why. As I’ve said, the current maintenance regime involving cramming many pieces of work into Christmas is dreadfully inefficient, induces artificial “dread” deadlines and leads to poorer quality and more expensive work. That’s why it doesn’t happen anywhere else. It’s a bad idea which costs more money and doesn’t deliver value. And of course it undermines the railway’s social role of providing transport to people who make the responsible choice to live without a car.

 

[Horizon22]

It’s much better to consider why no other observant country does this and why. As I’ve said, the current maintenance regime involving cramming many pieces of work into Christmas is dreadfully inefficient, induces artificial “dread” deadlines and leads to poorer quality and more expensive work. That’s why it doesn’t happen anywhere else. It’s a bad idea which costs more money and doesn’t deliver value. And of course it undermines the railway’s social role of providing transport to people who make the responsible choice to live without a car.

Okay you've still not explained what other 9-day schedule you would prefer. It's absoutely not inefficient to cram "many pieces of work" into one period. Doing three 3-day closures gets a lot less done than one 9-day closure.

 

[Steve Harris]

Here in the Fens the return to normal will be on 6 January. That's when Cambridge-Royston/Audley End reopens, having been closed since end of service on Christmas Eve.

Sorry but quite frankly that is balderdash, I've worked in 'the fens' for 30+ years and never gone back to work as late as the 6th. We normally go back to work on the 2nd (unless the 2nd falls on a weekend or the Bank Holiday for the 1st gets moved to the Monday due to that falling on a Saturday or Sunday).

I also have a friend who has had to work between Christmas and New Year (he works in a different trade to me) and yup you've guessed it, he also lives and works in 'the fens'!

 

[AlterEgo]

It's absoutely not inefficient to cram "many pieces of work" into one period. Doing three 3-day closures gets a lot less done than one 9-day closure.

I don’t know why you’re getting hung up about a nine day closure here, it’s not what is under discussion. The point is not that individual jobs should be broken up and spread out but that the maintenance regime should be, and, if you have read my posts, you will see I have argued for longer and more thoughtful closures for the exact reason you give - it’s more efficient to do work in an extended closure rather than rushing it in three days. (When do we often close the railway for three days, I wonder?)

This line of thinking actually supports the argument to not necessarily do work at Christmas - it’s very prone to overrun.

That’s partly why nearly every other country doesn’t bother with the cram-closures at Christmas!

 

[dangie]

I don’t really know which thread to put this on, but something I don’t understand is why employers/employees want two weeks holiday in the middle of winter?

Yes, have Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year’s Day, but work the rest and have days off in the summer (or whenever else).

 

[Magdalia]

Sorry but quite frankly that is balderdash, I've worked in 'the fens' for 30+ years and never gone back to work as late as the 6th. We normally go back to work on the 2nd (unless the 2nd falls on a weekend or the Bank Holiday for the 1st gets moved to the Monday due to that falling on a Saturday or Sunday).

I also have a friend who has had to work between Christmas and New Year (he works in a different trade to me) and yup you've guessed it, he also lives and works in 'the fens'!

This time the railway service is returning to normal on 6 January, I was referring to that not the local economy more generally.

It is also worth pointing out that the education sector is a much bigger part of the local economy here than in many other regions, and that won't be back to normal until 6 January either.

 

[Mike395]

There are exceptions - the Midland Main Line and Paddington closures for example (I think you'd struggle cutting off major commuter towns like Reading and Bedford from their direct route to London for a week or so at any other time of year) - but generally I'm inclined to agree with @AlterEgo that Boxing Day services could work if there was desire from industry and Government for it to be done and that it's a separate argument to Boxing Day's near-complete shutdown on the mainline network outside of certain geographical areas currently in any case. You absolutely could have extended closures over Christmas and run trains around these on Boxing Day, like is being done every other day in the week between Christmas and New Year (not inclusive).

I'm not thinking we'd ever want to be running close to a full service - mid-morning startup time and Sunday0frequency services with Christmas Eve-esque early shutdowns would be fine in my view as the end goal to aspire to, which would get those who wanted to travel where they needed to be - if conditions are right and it's funded appropriately, I can't imagine there not being the volunteers to run that level of service.

 

[43066]

It’s much better to consider why no other observant country does this and why.

International comparisons rarely stand up to scrutiny, though, when you consider our Victorian railway network (much of the rest of near Europe’s network was rebuilt post war), relative subsidy v. fare levels, differing observance of Christmas as a “thing”, political appetite for spending on the railway, different legal and planning systems etc.

It might be that the current approach to Xmas shutdowns is the best way certain projects can be accomplished within the current UK system, taking all relevant factors into account. Examples might include this year’s bridge replacement just North of St Pancras - such a feature wouldn’t be present at all had the railway been built more recently, but it’s there so it needs to be dealt with. Similarly the Lewisham rebuild from Xmas ‘22 into ‘23. Is there a better time either of those could have been done, within the confines of our network, and the above considerations?

That’s not to say aspects of the UK system couldn’t improve, of course, but then we’re back to discussing DfT expenditure limits etc.

 

[Topological]

I don’t really know which thread to put this on, but something I don’t understand is why employers/employees want two weeks holiday in the middle of winter?

Yes, have Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year’s Day, but work the rest and have days off in the summer (or whenever else).

Quite. As I noted upthread, there are many for whom the extended period is part of the leave allowance and they would be very happy to move those days. My industry is one such industry that has a full closure across the Christmas - New Year period.

However, because many do have this holiday structure the demands on the rail system are different (and lower on average) than in other weeks.

Perhaps we should bring back holiday fortnights in the summer and let the railway work out the associated 2-week closures.

There are exceptions - the Midland Main Line and Paddington closures for example (I think you'd struggle cutting off major commuter towns like Reading and Bedford from their direct route to London for a week or so at any other time of year) - but generally I'm inclined to agree with @AlterEgo that Boxing Day services could work if there was desire from industry and Government for it to be done and that it's a separate argument to Boxing Day's near-complete shutdown on the mainline network outside of certain geographical areas currently in any case. You absolutely could have extended closures over Christmas and run trains around these on Boxing Day, like is being done every other day in the week between Christmas and New Year (not inclusive).

I'm not thinking we'd ever want to be running close to a full service - mid-morning startup time and Sunday0frequency services with Christmas Eve-esque early shutdowns would be fine in my view as the end goal to aspire to, which would get those who wanted to travel where they needed to be - if conditions are right and it's funded appropriately, I can't imagine there not being the volunteers to run that level of service.

Absolutely correct.

 

[43066]

I don’t really know which thread to put this on, but something I don’t understand is why employers/employees want two weeks holiday in the middle of winter?

Yes, have Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year’s Day, but work the rest and have days off in the summer (or whenever else).

Quite. As I noted upthread, there are many for whom the extended period is part of the leave allowance and they would be very happy to move those days. My industry is one such industry that has a full closure across the Christmas - New Year period.

However, because many do have this holiday structure the demands on the rail system are different (and lower on average) than in other weeks.

Perhaps we should bring back holiday fortnights in the summer and let the railway work out the associated 2-week closures.

I’m unsure which parts of the railway either of you believe take two weeks holiday in winter, assuming that’s what’s being asked (it isn’t quite clear?). Passenger trains are running somewhere on the network on all days other than Xmas day, and engineering works take place 24/7 throughout the period.

The majority of staff in most industries are given leave to use when they wish - “holiday fortnights” haven’t been a thing for decades!

 

[Magdalia]

Perhaps we should bring back holiday fortnights in the summer and let the railway work out the associated 2-week closures.

That worked in an economy that was fundamentally different.

2 weeks summer shutdowns made sense for manufacturing industry, which predominated, especially in the North and Midlands. The railway was primarily for moving freight not passengers. It had lots of rolling stock that was only used in the summer, hauled by locomotives and driven by traincrew that usually worked freight trains.

It wouldn't work now.

 

[Topological]

I’m unsure which parts of the railway either of you believe take two weeks holiday in winter, assuming that’s what’s being asked, it isn’t quite clear? Trains are running somewhere on the network on all days other than Xmas day, and engineering works take place 24/7 throughout the period.

The majority of staff in most industries are given leave to use when they wish - “holiday fortnights” haven’t been a thing for decades!

Whilst this is a railway forum, the point is about passengers.

Passengers who go to work will be on 2-week holidays. Passengers on 2-week holidays go to different places.

 

[Class 317]

I don’t really know which thread to put this on, but something I don’t understand is why employers/employees want two weeks holiday in the middle of winter?

Yes, have Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year’s Day, but work the rest and have days off in the summer (or whenever else).

I quite agree!

One reason I normally work at least one of the 3 bank holidays and this year 2 of the 3.

 

[Topological]

That worked in an economy that was fundamentally different.

2 weeks summer shutdowns made sense for manufacturing industry, which predominated, especially in the North and Midlands. The railway was primarily for moving freight not passengers. It had lots of rolling stock that was only used in the summer, hauled by locomotives and driven by traincrew that usually worked freight trains.

It wouldn't work now.

Sadly yes, was always great growing up in Leicester that we had an earlier fortnight than pretty much every other school everywhere. Meant waiting for the tv schedules to catch up though.

I can think many on this forum would be very happy if there were still rakes of hauled stock brought out for such services.

I did make the comment somewhat tongue in cheek though.

 

[Starmill]

Okay you've still not explained what other 9-day schedule you would prefer. It's absoutely not inefficient to cram "many pieces of work" into one period. Doing three 3-day closures gets a lot less done than one 9-day closure.

Staffing shifts from late on the 24th through the 25th and 26th is inherently pretty inefficient. Unsurprisingly very few staff particularly want to work them so by definition it's an unattractive role or part of the role, commanding extra resources.

Now for some work, that's OK. After all it's perfect for something that can be achieved start to finish in around 24 hours of a block. However, forcing large pieces of simultaneous work to include these dates is more expensive than taking the hit at other times. Now perhaps that's worthwhile because of the lower demand, especially on the 25th itself. But probably not the 26th.

Most of the routes affected by closures on the 27th would simply also be closed on the 26th. I don't think anyone's saying we should either stop doing the works or only ever do any engineering work at night or on the 25th.

Personally I'm not sure I'm bothered about it. But if you look at France or Belgium or the Netherlands they don't observe Christmas all that differently to the UK, nor are they economically all that different to the UK.

 

[43066]

Whilst this is a railway forum, the point is about passengers.

Passengers who go to work will be on 2-week holidays. Passengers on 2-week holidays go to different places.

I’m not at all sure they will, other than some people who work in education. The vast majority of people will officially work on all weekdays other than the bank holidays over the festive period, with a likely early finish on Xmas Eve. That isn’t likely to change, because it simply isn’t how the commercial world works.

Some may book the period off, but that’s a minority, certainly based on my experience of office based roles.

I sense we’re moving off topic so I’ll leave it there.

 

[Starmill]

I don’t really know which thread to put this on, but something I don’t understand is why employers/employees want two weeks holiday in the middle of winter?

Yes, have Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year’s Day, but work the rest and have days off in the summer (or whenever else).

People who have school-aged children are often very heavily inclined to take all the days from 25 December to 1 January inclusive off work. Surely it's fairly obvious as to why.

I also know office workers who don't have their own children who always want those days off because their physical offices are closed (for example, because it allows, say, the office receptionists to all take it as leave as well).

Finally, lots of employers like their staff to use leave the because they know their main customers are all closed. So they know there will be very limited work that can actually be done. A branch of Pret I sometimes go to is shut for a full two weeks this Christmas and New Year, as a random example. No doubt any permanent contracted staff have been given the choice to take it as leave or work at a different branch, or have it off unpaid.

 

[Retorus]

Simply untrue. Having worked yesterday, I can tell you passenger numbers were significantly decreased.

I travelled yesterday and it was noticeably busier than any weekend I've travelled this year.

 

[Hairy Bear]

Sadly yes, was always great growing up in Leicester that we had an earlier fortnight than pretty much every other school everywhere. Meant waiting for the tv schedules to catch up though.

That's right, took me 50 years to see Robinson Crusoe get off that island.

Carry on with the arguments...........

 

[bramling]

I don’t really know which thread to put this on, but something I don’t understand is why employers/employees want two weeks holiday in the middle of winter?

Yes, have Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year’s Day, but work the rest and have days off in the summer (or whenever else).

I've never understood this either, but plenty of people seem to want it. Indeed I've come across a good many people who take the view "I *will not* work over Christmas and New Year".

I suspect there is a connection with those who enjoy copious consumption of alcohol, though I guess some people also value the time as children are also off school.

 

[Steve Harris]

It is also worth pointing out that the education sector is a much bigger part of the local economy here than in many other regions, and that won't be back to normal until 6 January either.

I'm presuming by "education sector" you mean the university of Cambridge? If that is the case I have first hand experience that some of their staff go back on the 2nd January, granted the students don't but many of the staff do. The other main employers in the fens, either go back on the 2nd (engineering, automotive sectors etc) or the likes of Addenbrookes, The Queen Elizabeth (Hospitals), GP surgeries etc and retail either work through Christmas or work between Christmas and New Year. I'm sure if you add up all the sectors I have mentioned education won't be the biggest part of the local economy who go back on the 6th.

 

[BoroAndy]

The problem with forced holiday periods, whether 1-2 weeks at Christmas or 2 weeks somewhere in summer, is the old chestnut of cost of going away on holiday, especially with families.

 

[Haywain]

I don’t really know which thread to put this on, but something I don’t understand is why employers/employees want two weeks holiday in the middle of winter?

Yes, have Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year’s Day, but work the rest and have days off in the summer (or whenever else).

Who's having two weeks off?

 

[Steve Harris]

I've never understood this either, but plenty of people seem to want it. Indeed I've come across a good many people who take the view "I *will not* work over Christmas and New Year".

I suspect there is a connection with those who enjoy copious consumption of alcohol, though I guess some people also value the time as children are also off school.

The first company I worked for their last day of work was the 23rd, but the union reps decided to go to the company and get that moved to the 24th due to people wanting to be able to use their holiday entitlement when it was warmer (ie summer).

My current employer stipulates the 23rd as the last day we work before Christmas, which for me I find so much better as there is no mad dashing about on Christmas Eve to get home, cook dinner, get showered before heading out to a party or getting the last bit of shopping done (vegetables).

As you say, some people find the extra time off beneficial, some don't. The same as some people would find travelling by train on Boxing day beneficial and some won't.

 

[Struner]

The UK railway contained within the boundaries of the UK. Generally we celebrate Christmas & New Year.

[…]

Engerdland’s newyear bank holiday only started in 1974.

Check this from the North Walls School (Orkney) teacher's logbook:

“25 December 1896 Christmas Day Very good attendance. Work going on steadily every day 9am to 3.30pm.
30 December 1896 Closed school for several days owing to New Year holidays.”
A different pattern of holidays.
They did have a holiday on Monday 26 December 1898 "for Christmas Day”. (North Walls Public School Logbook, CO5/89/1, Orkney Archive)

 

[Topological]

I'm presuming by "education sector" you mean the university of Cambridge? If that is the case I have first hand experience that some of their staff go back on the 2nd January, granted the students don't but many of the staff do. The other main employers in the fens, either go back on the 2nd (engineering, automotive sectors etc) or the likes of Addenbrookes, The Queen Elizabeth (Hospitals), GP surgeries etc and retail either work through Christmas or work between Christmas and New Year. I'm sure if you add up all the sectors I have mentioned education won't be the biggest part of the local economy who go back on the 6th.

We (Manchester) closed most student facing services on the 20th, with our students facing services resuming on Thursday 2nd. The precise dates (and therefore length of the break) depend on where the Fridays or Mondays fall. I doubt there will be many in on the 2nd and 3rd, but some will be. The lab-based staff will be in because we all have work to do. Those of us who can work from home will do so a while yet. Students finished on the 13th and are back on the 9th (or as their exam timetables state after that).

In these days when everything is via email time is a nominal concept.

(There is emergency provision over the holidays and support for students who stay on campus for whatever reason).

 

[43096]

Simply untrue. Having worked yesterday, I can tell you passenger numbers were significantly decreased.

They must all be on the roads instead, then, as my journey yesterday using M4, M40 and M6 was utterly horrible and slow.